WCRC banned from running trains on the mainline from 18th Feb 2016 now rescinded

[BestWestern]

2x47 with a mixed rake of Mk1 & 2 stock.

No CDL then, presumably?

 

[Nym]

Probably not, but should the guard not have applied a brake before releasing or opening the doors?

 

[Spamcan81]

Probably not, but should the guard not have applied a brake before releasing or opening the doors?

Each door is bolted manually and the bolts should only be slid back by a steward. I find it hard to believe it was "all doors open" but then again, I wasn't there.

 

[trainmania100]

It's all going downhill for wcrc...

 

[Sacro]

Each door is bolted manually and the bolts should only be slid back by a steward. I find it hard to believe it was "all doors open" but then again, I wasn't there.

Generally there's not enough for each door to have its own steward so they'll walk down and undo them on approach to stations.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I thought that central locking was mandatory on NR metals, no matter who the operator is

 

[Spamcan81]

Generally there's not enough for each door to have its own steward so they'll walk down and undo them on approach to stations.

Last WCRC tour I was on had a steward per coach but I've no idea if that was a typical experience.
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I thought that central locking was mandatory on NR metals, no matter who the operator is

Mk.1 and Mk.2 stock has a derogation to allow operation without CDL. Manually operated bolts and a steward to make sure doors are bolted before departure and to undo them once the train has stopped.

 

[najaB]

Mk.1 and Mk.2 stock has a derogation to allow operation without CDL. Manually operated bolts and a steward to make sure doors are bolted before departure and to undo them once the train has stopped.

Generally there's not enough for each door to have its own steward so they'll walk down and undo them on approach to stations.

Sounds like unsafe practices have been allowed to develop then. Are the stewards WCRC as well? Not looking good.

 

[BestWestern]

Probably not, but should the guard not have applied a brake before releasing or opening the doors?

You miss the point. If there is no Central Door Locking, the Guard isn't 'releasing' any doors!

 

[cjmillsnun]

Awaits a flaming for saying this and upsetting the purists but you know how you can now buy a Mini and a Fiat 500 that embraces latest technology with regard to brakes and suspension etc, yet still resembles the original but with the demands of modern day consumers met, could a fleet of modern coaches be built to look like older ones? Accessible, modern toilets and with power to run aircon, wifi etc etc and latest crash protection too in case of the worst happening.
Would certainly interest me instead of sitting on musty dralon and finding porno mags underneath (Severn Valley with my mrs).
Would need investment but surely investment is needed to attract younger audiences to generate revenues and make a safer more customer focussed environment.

The resemblance to the MINI of today and Issigonis' original is almost zero.

Compare

and

So if you want to build coaches on that principle, you may as well build New coaches that look like new coaches.

 

[Marklund]

Mk.1 and Mk.2 stock has a derogation to allow operation without CDL. Manually operated bolts and a steward to make sure doors are bolted before departure and to undo them once the train has stopped.

Wow.

Sorry, but it's time for these archaic practises to go, and if that means an end to older stock that can't, or won't be fitted with CDL, etc, then so be it.

 

[SPADTrap]

Dear oh dear it gets worse for WCRC, troubling reports.

 

[Nym]

You miss the point. If there is no Central Door Locking, the Guard isn't 'releasing' any doors!

Ohhhkay...

So how the hell can doors be released without a confirmed brake application being persistently made?

CDL does this automatically, one can achieve this procedurally, so is the correct procedure, as identified in any risk assessments, not being carried out, again?

At worst one could fit, discretely, a doors closed proving circuit to any stock, that, would cut any traction and potentially cause an emergency brake application via the guards van / compartment (as it's twin line air) thus significantly reducing the risk of moment with the doors open, where procedure must be used to prevent the doors being opened before the train has come to a complete stop, if, CDL cannot be fitted.

 

[Spamcan81]

Wow.

Sorry, but it's time for these archaic practises to go, and if that means an end to older stock that can't, or won't be fitted with CDL, etc, then so be it.

Nothing wrong with older stock if the rules are adhered to.

 

[Whistler40145]

Certainly isn't good news.

 

[Nym]

Nothing wrong with older stock if the rules are adhered to.

But, it appears be being persistently shown that rules are not adhered to, hence, we need some system to prevent it happening beyond rules.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

But, it appears be being persistently shown that rules are not adhered to, hence, we need some system to prevent it happening beyond rules.

No, we need rules which are adhered to.

Reliance on tech without a firm understanding of the issues which lead/led to the tech in the first place is a cul-de-sac of terror. We've got Siemens stock which have full traction & brake to door interlocking, but they can drag a passenger along the platform causing life changing injuries.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Not necessarily.

It can be the case that a regulatory authority has concerns about a company, their paper trail systems or actual operating practices, but cannot prove them to be dangerous until after a terrible, easily preventable 'accident' occurs.

If a company promises to behave in future, and makes all the right noises, then a regulator may have no option but to let them into a market, for fear of expensive legal action and large compensatory claims for denying someone access to that marketplace.

Rubbish. ORR has the power to ban a company completely with no comeback if they want. Exactly the same as the CAA can permanently ban an airline or a pilot at the drop of the hat if they have any suspicion of unsafe practices. They are the last word.

Prove that WCRC are safe - cannot be done. Prove that they are a danger - cannot be done. All you have are 'systems' and 'experience'.

You could apply that to every person and company in the world.

In the case of WCRC, recent past performance would suggest the need for heavy touch (as opposed to light touch) regulation and monitoring. Sit on them, watch them like a hawk, if they commit a transgression, have them out of the marketplace (again). Eventually they will destroy their own business as customers (train hire or individual ticket buyers) will get fed up of being messed around and seek a more reliable operator. When customers start asking 'who is the train provider? is it that WCRC? OK I'm not going to buy a ticket then' things may change.

Except that the next transgression could cost people their lives.

Yes, and all the staff too. People 50 years old and over are equally run-down and unreliable. However many annual medical check-ups they have a complete failure (heart attack, stroke, black-out) could occur at any time.

Think Glasgow bin wagon.:cry:

And that could happen to someone in their twenties.

Just this week an England Cricketer (James Taylor) has had to retire at the age of 26 because of severe heart problems. Who could forget Fabrice Maumba who collapsed on a football pitch after a cardiac arrest. His heart stopped for 78 minutes. Again in his twenties and otherwise fit and well (it could be argued that their fitness was above average).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, we need rules which are adhered to.

Reliance on tech without a firm understanding of the issues which lead/led to the tech in the first place is a cul-de-sac of terror. We've got Siemens stock which have full traction & brake to door interlocking, but they can drag a passenger along the platform causing life changing injuries.

We need a combination of the two.

We need technology that makes following the rules easier, and we need the rules to be adhered to.

With both you have a safer environment. With just one of the two you are waiting for the other to fail.

 

[87015]

CDL isn't interlocked. This year Mk3s have been dispatched with open doors, at least once this has been the case until the door has flown off its hinges at speed. That (franchised) operator wasn't banned...

 

[221129]

CDL isn't interlocked. This year Mk3s have been dispatched with open doors, at least once this has been the case until the door has flown off its hinges at speed. That (franchised) operator wasn't banned...

That Franchised operator hasn't had multiple safety failings and hadn't only recently come off a ban!

 

[Marklund]

CDL isn't interlocked. This year Mk3s have been dispatched with open doors, at least once this has been the case until the door has flown off its hinges at speed. That (franchised) operator wasn't banned...

How many incidents per trains run does that equate to, and compare it to WCRC.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I was watching for 1Z63 passing through Epsom 20 minutes ago ( I can just see part of the station from here ) and as it passed there was a huge bright yellow flash and a fairly loud bang - surely nobody laid a detonator for it???

Couldn't see exactly where the flash and bang originated from, but it looked to be just to the east of the station.

It certainly wasn't the flash from an electric train arcing on one of the other tracks - completely the wrong colour, much more intense and a definite loud bang; my wife heard it from downstairs while she was watching the TV.

 

[SPADTrap]

There's a lot more to this although it's not my place to say. Bemused at how it can continue and why individuals put themselves into the positions they have today.

 

[6Gman]

I wasn't suggesting bidirectional signalling just for the benefit of the occasional steam railtour. Rather as a part of the operational robustness that the railway requires.

As regards funding, it is a false economy not to have it given the disruption that results when a train blocks one line regardless of who the operator is.

Problems are:

a) it would be very expensive
b) depending on how often you install facing crossovers you would find cases where trains were blocked between crossovers
c) I'm a tad old-fashioned but I'm not keen on high speed facing points
d) given the volume of traffic on many of our two-track main lines using the bidirectional facility would be difficult.

 

[Whistler40145]

That's quite intriguing Peter.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Is Iskra still on board? Maybe he could confirm if the flash and bang was related to the train or not?

 

[d1672]

Hi,

I remember being at Havant one evening when the loco hauled Manchester to Portsmouth Harbour came round the bend into the station, and just before the level crossing there was a mighty loud bang accompanied by a huge flash.

It transpired that a chain which should have been attached to a cable on the front of the 47 hit the conductor rail and was welded into a strange shape. Nothing more serious than that. Perhaps that is what was heard and seen.

Thomas

I was watching for 1Z63 passing through Epsom 20 minutes ago ( I can just see part of the station from here ) and as it passed there was a huge bright yellow flash and a fairly loud bang - surely nobody laid a detonator for it???

Couldn't see exactly where the flash and bang originated from, but it looked to be just to the east of the station.

It certainly wasn't the flash from an electric train arcing on one of the other tracks - completely the wrong colour, much more intense and a definite loud bang; my wife heard it from downstairs while she was watching the TV.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hi,

I remember being at Havant one evening when the loco hauled Manchester to Portsmouth Harbour came round the bend into the station, and just before the level crossing there was a mighty loud bang accompanied by a huge flash.

It transpired that a chain which should have been attached to a cable on the front of the 47 hit the conductor rail and was welded into a strange shape. Nothing more serious than that. Perhaps that is what was heard and seen.

Thomas

Yes - that is a possibility; do either of the 47s on today's working have this particular type of chain fitted?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Hi,

I remember being at Havant one evening when the loco hauled Manchester to Portsmouth Harbour came round the bend into the station, and just before the level crossing there was a mighty loud bang accompanied by a huge flash.

It transpired that a chain which should have been attached to a cable on the front of the 47 hit the conductor rail and was welded into a strange shape. Nothing more serious than that. Perhaps that is what was heard and seen.

Thomas

Hang on... A metal object hitting the con rail and shorting it is very serious indeed.

It could have caused the traction current to trip.

It could've resulted in the chain being welded to the con rail and being torn from the loco in question. That could cause either shoes to be ripped off units or worse.

That in itself was a dangerous incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes - that is a possibility; do either of the 47s on today's working have this particular type of chain fitted?

If it was something hitting the con rail, would it not have been a white flash?

 

[BestWestern]

Ohhhkay...

So how the hell can doors be released without a confirmed brake application being persistently made?

CDL does this automatically, one can achieve this procedurally, so is the correct procedure, as identified in any risk assessments, not being carried out, again.

CDL does not have any ties with the braking system whatsoever. On the stock in question here, there is no CDL and no other means of centrally locking the doors; each door simply has a bolt which serves as the required 'secondary locking'. Stewards on board are responsible for unlocking these bolts, so the Guard is in fact not in direct control of the doors at all at the point of arrival. Regardless of where the train stops, or indeed if it stops at all, the doors could be opened with ease.