Well Done Northern and a guard!

[AlexS]

It's much more satisfying at times to let them think they've got away with it. I've had a couple of cases where justice has been meted out shortly after the initial offence. The most satisfying one involved having a chap picked up by Plod at his destination, when he thought he'd gone on the train and got away with it.

The other involved reporting a nob of an employee from a different TOC for fare evasion to his employer which (hopefully) resulted in withdrawal of his passes and possibly even better, a disciplinary for bringing his employer into disrepute. Having been refused free travel to which he wasn't entitled, he proceeded to give a train manager a load of abuse through a HST window when he was trying to watch the train out of the platform, then had the balls to come up to me and say he wanted to make a complaint as he felt he should have been treated better by the train manager as a fellow member of staff! Got far better things to do than deal with that.

 

[TTI]

What my colleague has done has put him/herself at risk for the sake of a few pence. You can't pick and choose when to follow the rules. If my colleague standard fared everyone from an open booking office fair enough but I am willing to bet a months wage that they don,t. The last thing I want to see is a colleague getting battered just for the sake of a quid

No, the guard that the OP was referring to applied the correct policy. There is no evidence to suggest (s)he picks and chooses when to follow the rules - why do you even suggest that?
Brinnington may well be shut or closing at that time of the evening. He/she has NOT put herself at risk - that's nonsense

I do what the vast (and I mean vast) guards at my depot do. Sell a ticket like I would at a ticket office. What makes things harder for us 140 plus guards is when newbies start (or the commission chasersay they pick and choose what part of the NrCoC to follow and that doesn't work when 95 percent of your stations don't have an open booking office.

Your figures are inflated, the number of your stations that don't have any open ticket office maybe high but it's not 95%

Difference is TPE have a standard fare policy, northern don,t. Big difference

Northern have the same policy, as seen by their 'Buy Before You Ride' posters inside their diesel units (mainly on the east, though), front page of their timetables and occasionally on their stations.

Final point, discretion is allowed (and is OK to implement) whether you work for TPE, XC or Northern but the public do know the score with railcard discounts, cheap tickets, etc.
Most of the under-30s,etc will hope no-one comes round or the only punishment is a nice cheap evening return sold on-board with a 'soft' guard.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

You really do not have a clue what it is really like do you? I am not a soft guard but I am a damn well experienced one. Who still sells the depot average amount of tickets. I keep myself and my passengers away from conflict and keep delays to an absolute minimum and amazingly haven't been punched etc yet. Know the routes and people we deal with first before you get on your moralistic crusade because quite frankly..... You don't have a clue!

 

[185]

The guard said he couldn't physically sell them on his machine (is it true?)

The problem is infact Northern.

The machine can sell any ticket, but the guard is told to sell the appropriate ticket (ie dependant on booking office closed or booking office open).

Then we come to Northern, who do not back up their staff when the complaint comes in.
Then we have the other passengers, who will often try get involved and start heckling the guard to "stop picking on the passenger".
Then there's the actual passenger, who often will give the guard a faceload of verbal in the hope they will back down.

So, to be fair, while I agree that guards who sell standard fare only are setting a good example, those that instead sell any ticket, or even don't do any revenue - I sympathise with and understand why they just stopped bothering long ago.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The problem is infact Northern.

The machine can sell any ticket, but the guard is told to sell the appropriate ticket (ie dependant on booking office closed or booking office open).

Then we come to Northern, who do not back up their staff when the complaint comes in.
Then we have the other passengers, who will often try get involved and start heckling the guard to "stop picking on the passenger".
Then there's the actual passenger, who often will give the guard a faceload of verbal in the hope they will back down.

So, to be fair, while I agree that guards who sell standard fare only are setting a good example, those that instead sell any ticket, or even don't do any revenue - I sympathise with and understand why they just stopped bothering long ago.

I do plenty of revenue I just won't put myself at risk from a scroate for a quid and there isn't many that would. We have no security, barriers or backup especially in the evening or later. So moralistic ideas are all well and good, the real world is slightly different

 

[island]

Difference is TPE have a standard fare policy, northern don,t. Big difference

What do you mean by a standard fare policy? FTPE does not do Penalty Fares so if a passenger does not buy before boarding when there was the opportunity, they need to buy an anytime ticket.

One problem is understaffed ticket offices.

If there's obviously too many passengers to have been sold tickets by the one member of staff in the ticket office how does the conductor know which passengers queued for 10 minutes and then gave up because the train arrival was imminent and which turned up 2 minutes before and went straight to the platform?

Doesn't matter. Both categories have to pay an anytime fare.

The other is buy before you board in the Northern area only penalises off-peak return passengers or railcard users. If you want a normal anytime single or return then you can't be charged more for buying on board but the off-peak return passengers can be. (Generally there are no off-peak singles on Northern routes with a few exceptions.)

Yes, except when they get prosecuted.

 

[richw]

Having worked previously in an environment where conflict with customers was common, we were given conflict management training and advised if the situation is going to become dangerous our safety was more important than a couple of quid.
Is it worth a conflict over a quid, when if it goes bad it could cost the employer more than £1 sorting out a mess caused, In a previous employment we calculated it cost an average of £50 to respond to a complaint, even if that was telling the customer they were wrong, and we would be taking no further action on the matter.I'm sure the company would rather you sold a ticket a few quid cheaper, than have to go through the expense of investigating and responding to a complainant.

 

[the sniper]

A case in point http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...t-wellington-station-in-row-over-rail-ticket/

Extract:

People should keep an eye out for the result of this case and full details of the incident once it comes to court. It's a rather sad/surprising one.

 

[RPI]

You newbies will soon learn why there are reasons for what we do and when it backfires then and only then you will learn, now if they put security on our trains then I would gladly do standard tickets until then my safety 1st and I would rather sell 10 tickets at 1.50 each then 2 at 3 quid and a trip to the hospital to prove a point

Thats a very patronising post, maybe its just a Northern culture, you're not going to get battered for charging someone a SDS or SDR, i say this from experience and i am far from a "Newbie", in fact i'm senior to most at my depot. If more guards did what they were meant to-which is to issue tickets in accordance with the NRCoC then there would be far less people who get assaulted and abused for merely doing their job correctly.
At my depot it is actually most of the ex BR Ladies and Gents that actually stick to the rules and do SDS/SDR from manned stations and more the newbies who let people off because they don't want any confrontation, i'm sorry but a guard who doesn't like confrontation is like being in the navy and suffering from chronic sea sicknes. I agree that revenue is not the primary role of the guard but it is a secondary duty and part of the overall guard role.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well they see me in the evening but to put this argument to bed, if you want to enforce the NrCoC do it properly. Now can you honestly give me the open and close times of every route on your card? So when you are working your train you can guarantee that the booking office is open when you sell them a sds, you can't sell a cds from somewhere like MPL or BDY if the booking office is open what's the betting like everyone else you do though, you can't decide when and when not to be totally strict you have to be one or the other. The same people get assaulted time after time being to strict. Don't be a statistic 156

Well it's quite simple, you ask the question "Is there any reason why you didn't buy your ticket at the station?" If they say that the TVM wasn't working but the other 50 people used it then you know they're telling porkies, theres nothing wrong with using discretion, but discretion is the exception and not the rule!
think of it like this, McNulty wants to de staff stations, by encouraging people not to use the ticket office you are hammering a nail into their coffin, and what about the people who DID bother to get out of bed in time and queue up and buy a ticket? You are, effectively, penalising them.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . .
But then he is 6ft 2in and built like a brick out-house!

I'm not persuaded that this sort of 'irrelevant' detail is, in practice, irrelevant! There are plenty examples of well-built males in benign roles having a beneficial effect on would-be transgressors.

. . . . Brinnington may well be shut or closing at that time of the evening. He/she has NOT put herself at risk - that's nonsense

Please don't be so quick to damn other members' reports of their experience. The assessment of putting oneself at risk of harm in a confined space is not easy, it requires an estimation of the likelihood of several outcomes with low-probability but with high impact (i.e. harm). Where there is doubt, all assessments should err on the side of safety. And all members of staff should receive full support for doing so; at all times, in all circumstances.

Most of the under-30s,etc will hope no-one comes round or the only punishment is a nice cheap evening return sold on-board with a 'soft' guard.

I'd guess that's about right.
Its a culturally established presumption which will take more than a poster campaign over a few months to change.

 

[the sniper]

On the subject of the thread, coming out of our major hub station I have in the past charged people for CDR (stating that I'm doing them a favour as I should sell full fare) or SDS rather than a Super Off Peak ticket in the evening. Most people just accept this as they know the score, some thank you for not selling the Standard ticket while some are annoyed that they can't get the Super Off Peak ticket. I've only ever had one women 'kick off', saying she'd never been charged anything but the Super Off Peak fare (which I could believe) and had heard nothing of my rules. She said she'd complain, I thanked her and welcomed her to do so, giving my pay number and first name.

After saying the above though, I've got to admit that nowadays I mainly just do tickets where ticket offices don't exist/aren't open or Super Off Peak tickets aren't available. If I'm doing tickets where the offices are open and Super Off Peak tickets are available, I normally just sell the Super Off Peak but make it very clear that I'm doing them a favour, that they should have brought one at the ticket office and that they should actually be buying a full fare ticket. Doing it like that at least should give any Guard who enforces the the rule properly an easier ride.

The reason I switched to the more relaxed approach was because I realised I was one of the few Guards to sell anything but the Super Off Peak tickets in the evening. ANorthernGuard's account is a very common one where I am.

 

[TTI]

Know the routes and people we deal with first before you get on your moralistic crusade because quite frankly..... You don't have a clue!

A moralistic crusade? Dearie, I've got no crusade, moralistic or otherwise!!!
Unless you are an instructor/manager (Which I doubt) you seem to wish newbie's (or whoever, - see above) all abide by the way you do things.

The clue I have (from the OP) is that you probably have a typical Manchester urban/suburban mix of commuters,leisure travelers,a few chancers per train.

I think you were unfairly "quick out of the blocks" in criticising the original Guard for being professional, fair and consistent to all the commuters, leisure travellers,chancers,etc he found on his/her train and dealing those who hadn't bought a ticket before boarding.

+ Heed RPI's post as well re "patronising" to your "newbie colleagues". Wise words IMO

Thats a very patronising post, maybe its just a Northern culture, you're not going to get battered for charging someone a SDS or SDR, i say this from experience and i am far from a "Newbie", in fact i'm senior to most at my depot.

 

[spacehopper]

There is a reason some of us on the east call it the wild west.

No two lines are the same maybe it's a cultural thing? Some lines where they come straight to you if they don't have a ticket others you are just checking and not selling as they all use booking offices or TVM. Then the small majority of stations where they can't pay, won't pay and company have to get banning orders.

It's amazing how many folk you get on evening trains when the barriers are wide open who walk straight past the ticket windows and numerous machines and want duos, cheap evening returns, railcard discounts or to not pay at all. The face twisting and insults the hassle you get from them it can really effect you if you let it.

You go through, you don't go through, enforce condition 2 or sell anything. As a guard you really can't win.

I work my train my way, other guards can do it their way but if I was a young female guard, slight build with a baby who has to put up with drunks acting lewd I'm sure I would then work my trains differently.

Respect to all my fellow guards it can be a very hard, demanding, emotionally and physically damaging job you don't know what saying "tickets please" will bring.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Respect to all my fellow guards it can be a very hard, demanding, emotionally and physically damaging job you don't know what saying "tickets please" will bring.

I have been spat at, simply for trying to tell someone on my train that they needed to get off. We were at the end of the line. I have had smug grinned scrotes threaten and abuse me for not having a ticket making it known to me that I couldn't do anything about it. The worst thing was they were right and they knew it. It's a game, sometimes you win, they get their collar felt. Sometimes they win, they get to play another day. I try not to let it get to me but sometimes it just cannot be helped. We are human and we have feelings. You make that judgement based on the crowd you have on the train, you can enforce nrcoc, take the hit on the tickets and sell them anything, or stay in back cab and stay safe. Every route and every train is different. People make genuine mistakes, others blatantly take the pith! That's why we have discretion. Plus, if there is time at a terminus station and I can, there's always the option to pre-book the train. Local door only, check and sell as they board. Job done!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I can be blunt, straight to the point and yes rude (I try not to be but some things do rile me) but I'm always honest about what I see on a day to day basis. Too many people at my depot have been the subject of abuse or been assaulted recently at my depot for things that could easily have been avoided for the sake of a few pence. As I mentioned earlier if northern provided adequate measures to help us do our jobs properly (barriers, security etc) then this discussion would never take place. But they don't and some guards (and yes they are usually the new ones) put themselves in risky situations for a few pence. Its not about forcing the way I do things on to anyone else, its about realising the risks that newbies (usually) take are unneccesary and there are safer ways to do things

 

[rebmcr]

I can be blunt, straight to the point and yes rude (I try not to be but some things do rile me) but I'm always honest about what I see on a day to day basis. Too many people at my depot have been the subject of abuse or been assaulted recently at my depot for things that could easily have been avoided for the sake of a few pence. As I mentioned earlier if northern provided adequate measures to help us do our jobs properly (barriers, security etc) then this discussion would never take place. But they don't and some guards (and yes they are usually the new ones) put themselves in risky situations for a few pence. Its not about forcing the way I do things on to anyone else, its about realising the risks that newbies (usually) take are unneccesary and there are safer ways to do things

I have nothing but respect for you guys and what you do, and on balance I think your more conservative stance is correct, but it's not just a few pence, it's also reinforcing the scallies' belief that they can get away with it.

Again though, even considering that, it's probably still not worth it.

 

[Greybeard33]

I witnessed an unpleasant confrontation on a different Northern service earlier this week, in which a guard was verbally abused by a ticketless passenger.

I admire the skilful way in which guards usually manage to defuse these situations, but I fear that the problems will continue to increase as long as they are expected to carry out revenue protection duties. Isolated on a moving train, without backup, a guard is in an even more vulnerable position than a bus driver, who can ensure all passengers have tickets before leaving the stop.

I think the only solution is more technology - smart cards, TVMs at all stations and automatic barriers at all major stations. Roving revenue protection teams could then carry out random spot checks at open access stations, collecting penalty fares from the ticketless with a "zero tolerance" policy.

Admittedly the technology is expensive, but I suspect the investment would soon pay for itself through enhanced revenue recovery.

 

[island]

The problem with barriers is that they can't stop doughnutting or standard tickets being used in first or advances on the wrong train.

 

[TTI]

The problem with barriers is that they can't stop doughnutting or standard tickets being used in first or advances on the wrong train.

Doughnutting? not heard that expression before - what is it?

 

[AndyLandy]

Doughnutting? not heard that expression before - what is it?

Buying cheap tickets to the next station down the line, just to pass the barriers.

 

[rebmcr]

Doughnutting? not heard that expression before - what is it?

I never heard it either but assumed it was using a 1-station ticket at either end's barriers on a much longer route's return journeys.

 

[Flamingo]

As somebody who used to have an approach that passengers should pay the correct fare for their journey, I still have that view, but have been forced to modify my practice to "Take the easy option" due to the total lack of back-up, both physical and moral, from management. It is galling to watch some arrogant scrote having a cheap or free ride (be they in a tracksuit or an M&S suit), but the bottom line is when a guard is on a train and asks somebody for a ticket, they are starting a possible confrontation. If said person either refuses to pay, or produces an invalid ticket and refuses to pay any monies owning, there is nothing we can do except play a game of threats with them, none of which we can use.

- We can call BTP, who will tell us to take their name and address (even if fake and no ID offered), and issue a UFN and that's all they will do, it's our problem not theirs.
- We can ring the next station if manned, on the off-chance Revenue are there (they are like the Loch Ness monster on my patch, nobody has ever seen them).
- We can delay the train at a station where there is security (I can think of three between London & Swansea) to get them chucked off, and then be severely and repeatedly bollocked by various managers for causing an unnecessary delay.
- We can ring ahead to the station where they are alighting, if it is before 19.00 and barrier staff are still there. What can barrier staff do, I hear you ask? See point 1.
- When the passenger writes in to complain, the number of complaints add up, especially if it is the same guard having the complaints. It is seen as something that is a problem with that guard and how badly they must be doing their job, not a reflection on their adherence to the rules we are told we should be working to.
- If a physical incident occurs, see the above point.

As I have said on here often, no manager will ever thank us for a course of action that involves them having to read or respond to an incident form or complaint. Too many of them and one becomes known as a guard who "looks for trouble", and that is the kiss of death.

Although I don't agree with ANG saying that guards who enforce the NRCoC are simply causing trouble for their colleagues, I can see why he says it.

I would take the opposite view, staff who don't are making it harder for those who try to. I am ashamed to say I have become one of the ones who don't, but one can only swim against the tide for so long.

 

[TTI]

Although I don't agree with ANG saying that guards who enforce the NRCoC are simply causing trouble for their colleagues, I can see why he says it.

I would take the opposite view, staff who don't are making it harder for those who try to. I am ashamed to say I have become one of the ones who don't, but one can only swim against the tide for so long.

I get the feeling (from most of the replies he generates from those on here), most things ANG says are 'his opinion or way of doing things' attempted to be imposed on others as the 'only way'. Reminds me of the adage, "a lie often repeated is still a lie"

Yes, Flamingo, I can see where the lack of apparent 'back-up' from management leads many staff to think "Why should I bother?" but then most TOCs - in the background - still have a prosecutions/enforcement unit who will prosecute offenders and therefore do provide "full back-up" to their front line staff.

This perception of a lack of apparent 'back-up' is probably more to do with the fact that most front line staff's "first port of call" line manager is in Operations and are probably chasing dream PPM figures on the operational side.

Btw, when a train is delayed for "disorder" (eg BTP called), there may be many delays but no-one actually pays for anything coded up as "disorder"
(I think they coincidentally forget to tell the front line staff that)
!

 

[Flamingo]

We have got a Revenue & Prosecutions dept, but they keep a pretty low profile, and appear and disappear like the Monty Python Spanish Inquisition. Any dream of them providing ANY back-up is just that -a dream, in my experience.

I have been told by a previous Chief Executive of the company on no account ever cause any delay over any revenue issue. Fair enough, but there are precious few revenue staff around either to deal with them on- board. In all my time as a guard I can still count on less than both hands the number of trains I have worked where RPI's have got on. I had one in 2012.

And if they say we are at stations - That is no good for planning how to deal with an evader, as there is no guaranteed presence at ANY station, and absolutely none after dark.

And call BTP too often, and the guard will be facing a "little chat" about conflict awareness and avoiding confrontation, as per the Violence at Work policy. Call them over a ticket, they don't want to know.

 

[WestCoast]

I can certainly see why guards will bend the rules to avoid conflict. If the TOCs aren't willing to support their front-line employees with the difficult job of collecting the correct fare then they'll have to take the hit on revenue!

Travelling on late trains on the continent I have often come across security teams accompanying guards, but when you don't spend quite so much on gatelines e.t.c there are the resources for this level of staffing.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I get the feeling (from most of the replies he generates from those on here), most things ANG says are 'his opinion or way of doing things' attempted to be imposed on others as the 'only way'. Reminds me of the adage, "a lie often repeated is still a lie"

Yes, Flamingo, I can see where the lack of apparent 'back-up' from management leads many staff to think "Why should I bother?" but then most TOCs - in the background - still have a prosecutions/enforcement unit who will prosecute offenders and therefore do provide "full back-up" to their front line staff.

This perception of a lack of apparent 'back-up' is probably more to do with the fact that most front line staff's "first port of call" line manager is in Operations and are probably chasing dream PPM figures on the operational side.

Btw, when a train is delayed for "disorder" (eg BTP called), there may be many delays but no-one actually pays for anything coded up as "disorder"
(I think they coincidentally forget to tell the front line staff that)
!

Its my way of doing things, I certainly do not try to impose my way of doing things onto others but I will tell them what it is really like in my depots neck of the woods. I have been a guard for 10 years and have had very little trouble in that time for good reason. Like flamingo has said you get ground down after time.

 

[142094]

I can certainly see why guards will bend the rules to avoid conflict. If the TOCs aren't willing to support their front-line employees with the difficult job of collecting the correct fare then they'll have to take the hit on revenue!

It is not really bending the rules though - you are always told Safety, Punctuality, Revenue. Safety first, even more important when you are in effect, lone working.

 

[Starmill]

As a fellow northern guard I'll have to disagree with you there mate. Particularly as this guard made a full announcement at 7 mins and 3 mins prior to departure advising that cheap evening returns would not be sold on the train and giving ample opportunity to goto the TVM.

I was on this same train and heard the announcements clearly. The guard (that we both know) sold everyone off peak tickets as he felt selling SDS to make a point a little excessive. It's a shame all guards at Picc don't do the same and we'd not have this problem!

I'm sure this guard would welcome you sending feedback to Northern and I'll pass on your kind messages as I believe he is working today!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh the unable to sell cheap evenings is a lie but one that I use myself personally as most people fall for it and it saves the argument.

I think a Virgin TM once sold me one before 08:00! Haahah!

But seriously, this raises some very interesting points. I agree that ensuring that everyone who boards at Piccadilly (as an example of a station where ticket facilities are(almost?) always available) gets a ticket before they board, or be forced to buy anytime would get the message across effectively. However, I've been on some late evening trains where you really wouldn't want to get into an argument with certain customers for the sake of a few quid, and there really isn't much to be done for that. Besides, on the Airport stoppers at least, the determined will simply move to the front of the train if they see the guard exit the rear cab, or sit there habitually. On a 142 maybe you more regularly make it all the way down the train? But then, I guess they're more prone to overcrowding - and then no check can take place at all. I can understand Northern's wishes to change the "ticketless culture" of their trains, but can't see how they can hope to change mindsets (if that is their aim, as opposed to simply to raise more revenue) without some serious spending. I myself have some trouble getting across to my friends when they say things like "It's fine when you get the train, you just get on and if nobody comes around, you don't need to pay." that this isn't acceptable - certainly at major stations like Piccadilly.

In closing, I'd like to add this; there appears to be a guard (obviously not the guard because he isn't opening the doors) on an early morning train into Piccadilly from MAU, who walks up the train offering to sell anyone what is apparently the full range of tickets, despite the fact that booking offices should be open at this time of the morning. Should he stop doing this? Of course not. Apart from collecting more revenue, he seems to be doing it purely for the benefit of us passengers (and the actual guard might be doing it as well) and he has saved me from the horrible crush on platform 12 a couple of times (I liked it better on 9!). Add to this the facts that a) a full range of tickets appears to be avialable in said "crush" on arrival and b) it has been all to common, since our regular booking clerk has not been seen for some time, for only the TVM to be working at MAU - which can cause problems if G4S staff are present indicating that people use it because not only does it not accept my chosen means of payment, but it doesn't list my fare.