Were/are suburban services on the SR Central section conisdered the "Cinderella" of the SR?

[AY1975]

The Central, historically, was the only place in London apart from the Thames/Chiltern routes where you can find two car services-the class 456.

It's true that the Central Division and the Thames/Chiltern routes were the only places in central London where single 2-car units were regularly seen, but not the only places within the Greater London boundaries: you also had 2-EPBs and 466s on the Addiscombe and Bromley North branches (and on the North London Line for a time in the 1980s, and on the peak hour only Elmers End-Sanderstead shuttles until the line closed in 1983). Plus 2-car DMUs on Gospel Oak-Barking (and on Camden Road-North Woolwich, Stratford-Tottenham Hale and Romford-Upminster shuttles until the mid-1980s).

 

[Snow1964]

The most spectacular run I had on the Southern Electric was back in the 1980s from Southampton Parkway nonstop to Waterloo, Expecting the normal 12-car REP/TC to arrive, what turned up, several minutes late, was a single 4-VEP. Just about enough seats. This proceeded to run to Waterloo absolutely flat out, at what felt like a bit exceeding the speed limit for much of the journey, and actually regained time.

The higher voltage helped, back in 1980s there were parts of this Suburban network still fed with nominally 660v sections, 750v was common on the mainlines, but a lot of Bournemouth line electrification has been done at 850v.

Top end acceleration above about 75mph was poor, but given a long enough run would gradually creep up to about 95mph (nearer 100 on downhill). VEPs didn’t really have gearing to accelerate to 90mph climbing a hill. I’m sure a driver once told me it took about 6 miles from stop to hit 90mph

I say that because suburban services from Victoria often seem the quietest out of the three SR divisions, even nowadays in the morning peaks there are seats avaliable on stopping trains on the approach into Victoria. The Central, historically, was the only place in London apart from the Thames/Chiltern routes where you can find two car services-the class 456. Plus, most post-war infrastructure plans seem to involve easing congestion into London Bridge or Waterloo. Were the Brighton slows considered the least important of the SR's suburban traffic? If so, why?

Demographics play a big part, electrification and commuting in these areas boomed at end of 1920s and early 1930s. But by the 1950s same people were living in these homes but had retired.

Eventually people moved to coastal towns, or die, and a new generation take up the family homes and commute. However by this time London had split, financial services were in offices in City, and other businesses in West End, the West End businesses tended to start day later 9-10am rather than 8-9am in City. So services to Victoria were serving different commuting and shopping market (where rush hour was more spread out)

The opening of Victoria line also made a hole in the central commuting market, especially as some bus routes were almost aimed at feeding the tube. So Central division suburban commuting was weaker. In more recent years demographics have again changed as younger families move into previously unfashionable areas.

But now Thameslink services exist and the extended Overground can get people to Canada Water (for Canary Wharf). So have a split market as London offices now in 3 distinct areas. It remains to be seen what post Covid era does (but that discussion has its own thread)

In the past there have been some publications where the demographics yo-yo commuting levels have been shown by listing quantities of season tickets each year, or every few years for selected stations

 

[Journeyman]

The higher voltage helped, back in 1980s there were parts of this Suburban network still fed with nominally 660v sections, 750v was common on the mainlines, but a lot of Bournemouth line electrification has been done at 850v.

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you the 850v thing is a myth. I've certainly been told that a few times. Apparently it was mentioned in one book years ago and has come to be accepted as fact, a bit like the Great Central continental loading gauge thing.

 

[Taunton]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you the 850v thing is a myth. I've certainly been told that a few times. Apparently it was mentioned in one book years ago and has come to be accepted as fact, a bit like the Great Central continental loading gauge thing.

It was certainly in the official (and semi-official, like Modern Railways accounts) documents at the time Bournemouth electrification opened, I remember it. Statements like it was now possible for suburban electric stock to run by itself to Eastleigh works for overhaul, previously it had to be loco-hauled there and back. But while the EPB units were OK, the older SUB units had to have all the lights turned off west of Brookwood.

Possibly things had to be insulated for the higher voltage. Which is not the same as it actually being supplied.

 

[Tester]

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell you the 850v thing is a myth. I've certainly been told that a few times. Apparently it was mentioned in one book years ago and has come to be accepted as fact, a bit like the Great Central continental loading gauge thing.

Anecdotal of course, but I recall a friend many years ago mentioning a rather spirited late night run between Basingstoke and Eastleigh. REP plus 4-TC and 1000v on the rail. Given who the friend was, the driver was comfortable to go for it.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It was certainly in the official (and semi-official, like Modern Railways accounts) documents at the time Bournemouth electrification opened, I remember it. Statements like it was now possible for suburban electric stock to run by itself to Eastleigh works for overhaul, previously it had to be loco-hauled there and back. But while the EPB units were OK, the older SUB units had to have all the lights turned off west of Brookwood.

Possibly things had to be insulated for the higher voltage. Which is not the same as it actually being supplied.

Much later -1988 - 4SUB 4732 happily ran ECS Basingstoke to Wimbledon Park depot , at about 60 mph as I recall .....

 

[30907]

It was certainly in the official (and semi-official, like Modern Railways accounts) documents at the time Bournemouth electrification opened, I remember it. Statements like it was now possible for suburban electric stock to run by itself to Eastleigh works for overhaul, previously it had to be loco-hauled there and back. But while the EPB units were OK, the older SUB units had to have all the lights turned off west of Brookwood.

Possibly things had to be insulated for the higher voltage. Which is not the same as it actually being supplied.

But that was the upgrade to 750v surely? The internal electrics of the SUBs differed from those of EPBs in some way, can't remember how but there was a thread somewhere....

 

[D6130]

But that was the upgrade to 750v surely? The internal electrics of the SUBs differed from those of EPBs in some way, can't remember how but there was a thread somewhere....

IIRC, the Kent Coast lines, East of Gillingham, Maidstone and Sevenoaks were electrified at 750v in the late 'fifties/early 'sixties; Pirbright Junction-Branksome/Bournemouth West at 850v in the late 'sixties and the rest of the Southern electrified network at 660v - or so I was told on my guard's training. Of course the whole network has now been altered to 750v - except for the Island line, which remained at the lower voltage.

 

[Journeyman]

But that was the upgrade to 750v surely? The internal electrics of the SUBs differed from those of EPBs in some way, can't remember how but there was a thread somewhere....

The equipment in the SUBs was much cruder than the EPBs. Air brakes only, control circuits and jumpers worked at full line voltage, lighting circuits also wired across the full traction supply with no battery backup, no starting bells, no speedos in the cabs. They were fully backwards compatible with all suburban and semi fast units built since the original LSWR suburban units back in 1914.

 

[Taunton]

The SUBs had no low voltage equipment at all. I was quite surprised in what was probably 1983 to go out from Waterloo one day and find the train being dispatched at Earlsfield by the guard holding a green flag. Having lived previously in the Wirral where the local electric trains, built almost 50 years before this, had starting bells, I didn't think there were any multiple units anywhere that didn't have them. I believe that right to the end the SUBs were shared equally between the SW and Central divisions, and in fact there were several daily diagrams that started on one and finished on the other.

 

[Journeyman]

The SUBs had no low voltage equipment at all. I was quite surprised in what was probably 1983 to go out from Waterloo one day and find the train being dispatched at Earlsfield by the guard holding a green flag. Having lived previously in the Wirral where the local electric trains, built almost 50 years before this, had starting bells, I didn't think there were any multiple units anywhere that didn't have them. I believe that right to the end the SUBs were shared equally between the SW and Central divisions, and in fact there were several daily diagrams that started on one and finished on the other.

Yeah, they operated on two divisions right to the end in an effort to prevent crews feeling too hard done by! Despite the visual similarity to EPBs, they were surprisingly different.

I must have travelled on a few SUBs when I was very young, but can't remember them clearly - they operated pretty much at peak hours only and had no weekend work for their final few years. I did, however, get a couple of runs on 4732 in the mid-90s, just before BR got rid of it. The thing that really struck me was that it was totally silent when stationary, unlike the EPBs with their humming motor-generators running the low-voltage circuits.

 

[Taunton]

My last run in 4732 was the "open day" at Woking when the Weymouth electrification/end of the REPs came in. 1989? The SUB and the 2-BIL coupled were running quite frequent shuttles to Guildford and back, I think I probably did about four round trips as it came on to rain. The SUB was little different to the still-plentiful EPBs, so I did just one trip in it; the 2-BIL was a real 1930s time-warp (and far more comfortable than anything nowadays).

 

[Journeyman]

My last run in 4732 was the "open day" at Woking when the Weymouth electrification/end of the REPs came in. 1989? The SUB and the 2-BIL coupled were running quite frequent shuttles to Guildford and back, I think I probably did about four round trips as it came on to rain. The SUB was little different to the still-plentiful EPBs, so I did just one trip in it; the 2-BIL was a real 1930s time-warp (and far more comfortable than anything nowadays).

I'm gutted I never got to ride the BIL. It's sitting looking decidedly forgotten in a corner of NRM Shildon these days. Externally it looks good, but the inside has been vandalised and was never properly repaired - you can see graffiti through the windows.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, they operated on two divisions right to the end in an effort to prevent crews feeling too hard done by! Despite the visual similarity to EPBs, they were surprisingly different.

I always think of the SUB's as a "pre-historic" EPB.

I too went on the preserved one in the 90's. What a pity it wasn't kept in running condition. BR really was very good at that sort of thing.

 

[JohnElliott]

I rode on the SUB and the BIL when they did a railtour to the newly electrified Weymouth and East Grinstead in 1988. Apparently the control circuits and lighting could cope with the higher voltage, but the heaters had to be isolated so they couldn't have done it in the winter.

From a passenger's point of view, the SUB seemed just like an EPB to me, except the compressor sounded higher pitched.

 

[Bald Rick]

My last run in 4732 was the "open day" at Woking when the Weymouth electrification/end of the REPs came in. 1989? The SUB and the 2-BIL coupled were running quite frequent shuttles to Guildford and back, I think I probably did about four round trips as it came on to rain. The SUB was little different to the still-plentiful EPBs, so I did just one trip in it; the 2-BIL was a real 1930s time-warp (and far more comfortable than anything nowadays).

Off Topic (sorry!) but I remember that day well, went with my Dad. Had a tour of Woking SB - first time ever in a ‘box. Knowing next to nothing about railway dignlling (I was still at school) I was expecting computer screens, or at the very least some sort of giant control panel like you see on the TV on documentaries about NASA Mission control. I was amazed to find a long row of miniature levers, a separate funny little section for Brookwood, and a signaller called Kevin who looked like he’d just got out of bed, and seemed to be rather casual in everything he did. (Not at all like what I’d seen on tv about air traffic control, which I assumed was a similar type of job*).

All controlling trains running around at 90mph. Scared me somewhat! And there was no big red button topress to turn all the signals red!

*an opinion I still hold, incidentally.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Anecdotal of course, but I recall a friend many years ago mentioning a rather spirited late night run between Basingstoke and Eastleigh. REP plus 4-TC and 1000v on the rail. Given who the friend was, the driver was comfortable to go for it.

Higher conductor rail voltages are well known late evening as the traction system is setup to deliver 750V under peak hour loading. So in late evening with less trains on the move the 33kv high voltage system feeding the substations progressively becomes unloaded and it can easily rise upto 34kv especially as the National Grid is also experiencing dropping load overnight.

Actually higher conductor rail voltages became a function of the 1980's electrification schemes as they used 11kV distribution equipment to save costs but this leads to higher regulation on the HV system (more current/MW than at 33kV so volt drop is greater along cables) so to cater for peak hour loading the rectifiers were setup at around 900V at no load. On Hastings line 4 cars got more volts than an 8 car as a result.

REP+4TC were a fabulous combination and with them devoid of OTMR had plenty of lively runs and over 100mph was achievable.

 

[Taunton]

Actually higher conductor rail voltages became a function of the 1980's electrification schemes as they used 11kV distribution equipment to save costs

I wonder what costs they save; does one not need more substations as a result, and more losses on the HV side?

I recall even in the 1960s the Wirral electrics at Birkenhead Park had a trackside conduit on the cutting brick walls, covered in dilapidated timber sheeting, with "33kV" hand-painted very roughly with a big brush on it. It was many years before I knew what it meant.

Off Topic (sorry!) but I remember that day well, went with my Dad. Had a tour of Woking SB - first time ever in a ‘box.

I went into that box too. 1930s Southern Railway technology. Compared to the big levers and the track diagram with track circuit lights, mounted slightly drunkenly on the wall in Taunton Station West Box, it looked quite sophisticated!

Do you remember me saying to you as we passed "In 30 years time I'm going to be really annoying you with posts on a computer"

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wonder what costs they save; does one not need more substations as a result, and more losses on the HV side?

11kV equipment costs were 1/3rd of 33kV and didn't result in more substations being needed but it did constrain how many trains could be run especially if there was an outage on the traction system. People often criticise the 1980's 3rd rail electrification schemes for having inadequate power but we were faced in the 1980's of little funding and a remit to come up with least cost solutions to keep routes open. We also designed it to support SR standard 4 car EP stock and no one could foresee that by the turn of the millennium slam doors would be gone and replaced with air con Electrostars and that ridership would have increased so much even beyond the expected sparks effect.

 

[Journeyman]

11kV equipment costs were 1/3rd of 33kV and didn't result in more substations being needed but it did constrain how many trains could be run especially if there was an outage on the traction system. People often criticise the 1980's 3rd rail electrification schemes for having inadequate power but we were faced in the 1980's of little funding and a remit to come up with least cost solutions to keep routes open. We also designed it to support SR standard 4 car EP stock and no one could foresee that by the turn of the millennium slam doors would be gone and replaced with air con Electrostars and that ridership would have increased so much even beyond the expected sparks effect.

Interesting. It's certainly true that service frequencies have doubled on a lot of routes, and single VEPs have been replaced by 8 or 10 car formations with much higher current draw. Not only that, but current is drawn in a different way. I read when Networkers were introduced that the current draw when accelerating left substation equipment hotter than EPB units, and it frequently didn't have a chance to cool sufficiently before another train entered the section.

 

[yorksrob]

11kV equipment costs were 1/3rd of 33kV and didn't result in more substations being needed but it did constrain how many trains could be run especially if there was an outage on the traction system. People often criticise the 1980's 3rd rail electrification schemes for having inadequate power but we were faced in the 1980's of little funding and a remit to come up with least cost solutions to keep routes open. We also designed it to support SR standard 4 car EP stock and no one could foresee that by the turn of the millennium slam doors would be gone and replaced with air con Electrostars and that ridership would have increased so much even beyond the expected sparks effect.

Luckily (for me) the slam doors lingered past the millenium for five years or so.

Interesting. It's certainly true that service frequencies have doubled on a lot of routes, and single VEPs have been replaced by 8 or 10 car formations with much higher current draw. Not only that, but current is drawn in a different way. I read when Networkers were introduced that the current draw when accelerating left substation equipment hotter than EPB units, and it frequently didn't have a chance to cool sufficiently before another train entered the section.

I was under the impression that the 1980's electrification schemes were designed for 8-carriage slammers (as with the Hastings line). Obviously not as generous as the 12 carriage schemes of the 60's and before, but 4 carriage seems too parsimonious.

 

[Journeyman]

Luckily (for me) the slam doors lingered past the millenium for five years or so.



I was under the impression that the 1980's electrification schemes were designed for 8-carriage slammers (as with the Hastings line). Obviously not as generous as the 12 carriage schemes of the 60's and before, but 4 carriage seems too parsimonious.

They probably were designed for 8, but often off-peak services were only 4.

I think sometimes we forget just how lightly used huge chunks of the railway used to be. A lot has changed.

 

[yorksrob]

They probably were designed for 8, but often off-peak services were only 4.

I think sometimes we forget just how lightly used huge chunks of the railway used to be. A lot has changed.

Oh, I well remember being annoyed at a busier than I would have liked 4-carriage train turning up at Ashford for Charing Cross

I suppose the lines west of Portsmouth were only used to 3 carriage thumpers, so 4 carriages would have been an improvement.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I was under the impression that the 1980's electrification schemes were designed for 8-carriage slammers (as with the Hastings line). Obviously not as generous as the 12 carriage schemes of the 60's and before, but 4 carriage seems too parsimonious.

Thanks should have made that clearer that was the traction current profile of a 4 car Express EP was our base design assumption and that 2x4cars was used for loading purposes. Hastings could run a single 12 car under special arrangements if there was no outages and did happen on odd occasions.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks should have made that clearer that was the traction current profile of a 4 car Express EP was our base design assumption and that 2x4cars was used for loading purposes. Hastings could run a single 12 car under special arrangements if there was no outages and did happen on odd occasions.

Thanks, that's interesting. I must admit, I regard the third rail electrification scemes of the 80's and early 90's as one of the great successes of BR (fond though I am of thumpers).

 

[Taunton]

Thanks should have made that clearer that was the traction current profile of a 4 car Express EP was our base design assumption and that 2x4cars was used for loading purposes. Hastings could run a single 12 car under special arrangements if there was no outages and did happen on odd occasions.

Does seem a bit surprising when 12-car Hastings trains had run as a matter of course through the diesel Thumper era.

Remember being at Tunbridge Wells station, in a cutting between the tunnels, when two 12-car Thumpers going in opposite directions both opened up simultaneously!

 

[yorksrob]

Does seem a bit surprising when 12-car Hastings trains had run as a matter of course through the diesel Thumper era.

Remember being at Tunbridge Wells station, in a cutting between the tunnels, when two 12-car Thumpers going in opposite directions both opened up simultaneously!

To be fair, two of those twelve carriages were taken up with engine !

 

[Journeyman]

To be fair, two of those twelve carriages were taken up with engine !

Also, of course, diesel trains don't require power supply infrastructure, and the constraints on their operation are entirely different. It has to be said that the Thumpers were somewhat underpowered, and the Hastings units at 6 vehicles, two of which were very heavy, had the same power output of a 4-car EMU without the weight of two rather hefty engines and large fuel tanks to cart around.

 

[yorksrob]

Also, of course, diesel trains don't require power supply infrastructure, and the constraints on their operation are entirely different. It has to be said that the Thumpers were somewhat underpowered, and the Hastings units at 6 vehicles, two of which were very heavy, had the same power output of a 4-car EMU without the weight of two rather hefty engines and large fuel tanks to cart around.

Although I did read that they were better than the electrics at getting through leaf mulch (and ice goes without saying).

 

[bramling]

Does seem a bit surprising when 12-car Hastings trains had run as a matter of course through the diesel Thumper era.

Remember being at Tunbridge Wells station, in a cutting between the tunnels, when two 12-car Thumpers going in opposite directions both opened up simultaneously!

Presumably there was an element of running a more frequent service, which no doubt the more favourable economics of electric operation contributed to.