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West Lothian buses

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Observer

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Typical First, buy new stock as part of a government grant and then proceed to send it to Glasgow years later.
 
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Volvodart

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They only got a few thousand per bus. It would not break First if they had to pay it back.
 
Jordan Adam

Jordan Adam

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TheGrandWazoo said:
Did I mention prejudice? Did I mention other threads?

On this thread, you are pro First. That you have no connection to either firm is neither here nor there.
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I never mentioned any other threads.... And yes i prefer First when it comes to West Lothian as i think they've done a better job, but i've always been clear that that's my view. I fail to see what was bias about the point i was making as it was simple fact, if the X17/275/280/287/X38/EX2 not operating made sense because they're not vital services then the same logic could be applied to the X18/X27/X28 as they're also covered by other means. The same logic could apply to some of First's routes, however i didn't mention them as the point was specifically about Lothians service reductions due to Covid-19, not Firsts. Anyway, i don't see any more need to drag this specific issue any further as it's of no benefit to this thread.

Baileygirl said:
What improvements in West Lothian. Services and fares tweaks but buses have got older with second hand buses from Glasgow and Bristol while the majority of the new deckers have gone. A lot more breakdowns recently due to the age of some of the buses.
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To be pedantic the majority of new deckers haven't gone as just over half of the batch remain in WL. However even then i wouldn't regard it a downgrade as the Streetlites do offer a like for like replacement, and even then there was arguably an upgrade as they replaced older Geminis with 14 plate buses! The fleet hasn't actually got older, there's more "newer" buses now than there was, it's just that they have drafted in some older vehicles to allow for the service enhancements, as i'm sure you know already these vehicles are due to be displaced soon by 09 plate B7RLEs and 15 plate Streetlites. I wouldn't blame reliability on the age of the vehicles given that West Lothian possibly has the lowest fleet age in FirstGroup, however i would agree that some of the vehicles on loan are in really poor condition, especially the Scanias.

In terms of network improvements (August 2018 vs now).
  • 21: Bathgate - Whitburn frequency doubled
  • 22: Extended in to Edinburgh to the east and Shotts to the west. Improved evening service.
  • 23: Revised as the X23 offering faster journey times to Livingston. The combined 15 minute frequency of the X22/X23 is far better than the old 23/X23
  • 26: Extended from Livingston North to Bathgate.
  • 27: Extended to Ladywell West
  • 38: 15 minuite frequency reinstated between Edinburgh and Linlithgow (effectively doubling the service)
  • 600: Frequency doubled to half hourly, extended from Livingston to Whitburn.
  • BBT: Launch of a new tour service in Edinburgh, second route was due to follow soon.
In total the PVR for the region has went up by about 35 buses since Aug 2018. I've included BBT because it's relevant to my point that the improvements have came at the cost of elsewhere in the division.

Observer said:
Typical First, buy new stock as part of a government grant and then proceed to send it to Glasgow years later.
Click to expand...

In the bigger picture the move made sense as the 23/X23 (now X22/X23) no longer require decker capacity and it allowed Glasgow to convert a route that needs the capacity to E400MMC operation. Albeit it's very debatable if the 600 actually needs the capacity of the remaining E400MMCs either, it's quite notable that the remaining 600 livery E400MMCs frequently stray on to the X25....
 
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CN04NRJ

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Jordan Adam said:
I never mentioned any other threads.... And yes i prefer First when it comes to West Lothian as i think they've done a better job, but i've always been clear that that's my view. I fail to see what was bias about the point i was making as it was simple fact, if the X17/275/280/287/X38/EX2 not operating made sense because they're not vital services then the same logic could be applied to the X18/X27/X28 as they're also covered by other means. The same logic could apply to some of First's routes, however i didn't mention them as the point was specifically about Lothians service reductions due to Covid-19, not Firsts. Anyway, i don't see any more need to drag this specific issue any further as it's of no benefit to this thread.



To be pedantic the majority of new deckers haven't gone as just over half of the batch remain in WL. However even then i wouldn't regard it a downgrade as the Streetlites do offer a like for like replacement, and even then there was arguably an upgrade as they replaced older Geminis with 14 plate buses! The fleet hasn't actually got older, there's more "newer" buses now than there was, it's just that they have drafted in some older vehicles to allow for the service enhancements, as i'm sure you know already these vehicles are due to be displaced soon by 09 plate B7RLEs and 15 plate Streetlites. I wouldn't blame reliability on the age of the vehicles given that West Lothian possibly has the lowest fleet age in FirstGroup, however i would agree that some of the vehicles on loan are in really poor condition, especially the Scanias.

In terms of network improvements (August 2018 vs now).
  • 21: Bathgate - Whitburn frequency doubled
  • 22: Extended in to Edinburgh to the east and Shotts to the west. Improved evening service.
  • 23: Revised as the X23 offering faster journey times to Livingston. The combined 15 minute frequency of the X22/X23 is far better than the old 23/X23
  • 26: Extended from Livingston North to Bathgate.
  • 27: Extended to Ladywell West
  • 38: 15 minuite frequency reinstated between Edinburgh and Linlithgow (effectively doubling the service)
  • 600: Frequency doubled to half hourly, extended from Livingston to Whitburn.
  • BBT: Launch of a new tour service in Edinburgh, second route was due to follow soon.
In total the PVR for the region has went up by about 35 buses since Aug 2018. I've included BBT because it's relevant to my point that the improvements have came at the cost of elsewhere in the division.



In the bigger picture the move made sense as the 23/X23 (now X22/X23) no longer require decker capacity and it allowed Glasgow to convert a route that needs the capacity to E400MMC operation. Albeit it's very debatable if the 600 actually needs the capacity of the remaining E400MMCs either, it's quite notable that the remaining 600 livery E400MMCs frequently stray on to the X25....
Click to expand...

The mental gymnastics required here to elevate First West Lothian above even other subsidiaries like Bristol in terms of fleet age is really quite something.

Looking back at your other posts if Lothian transfer Euro 6 B7RLEs to LCB it's 'a waste of resources' and 'depriving the city of more modern buses and bringing 04 plates (euro 5!) back on the road'. Whereas if First transfer out a large number of euro 6 E400s and bring elderly euro 3 Scanias in it's to 'enable Glasgow work to be converted to DD'.

I'm really not sure how you can claim your posting isn't biased when you skew facts towards a bizarrely pro-First viewpoint?
 
TheGrandWazoo

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Jordan Adam said:
However, I don't hold any prejudice against any operators and have praised Lothian countless times for the city operation and they way they transformed ECB.
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Funny that you say you aren't prejudiced. Your first post (from Jul 2018) when the expansion was announced....

Jordan Adam said:
I think they got a bit bored and needed another PR stunt/Vanity project.... That's all i'll say on the matter before i get hounded... o_O

Ohh and before anyone comes at me, don't bother. You ain't gonna change my views Lothian's recent expansions. :lol:
Click to expand...

Given I'm struggling to find much pro-Lothian stuff in your nearly 500 posts on this thread, I thought you must be referring to something else... Still, I did find this

Jordan Adam said:
Literally one person posted that 1047 appeared to be in a little bit of bother :rolleyes:... Lothian are good at operating their city services, they have a superb, comprehensive, good value, modern network. However many of the management choices in recent times have been very questionable to say the least, they've not done a great job at entering the WL market and it seems like the bulk of drivers are not that pleased with the general atmosphere either.

It's somewhat hard to reply to your post without sounding rude, however as you work for one of the operators you do appear to have a slight bias towards them (as can be backed up by looking at your previous posts on this and other threads).
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Granted, you do make the compliment but the last line is.....
 
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Baileygirl

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Jordan Adam said:
Dechmont are in walking distance to the X25 and 600, Kirknewton have a rail service, X22/X23 serve East Calder. So the only one that would loose a "vital" service is Calderwood, however as that's new builds bus use will be lower at the best of times anyway.
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If you work in St John's and live in Kirknewton the train not an option. Also X18 and X28 serve the Tesco Warehouse which I would think is a point for key workers.
 
Jordan Adam

Jordan Adam

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TheGrandWazoo said:
Funny that you say you aren't prejudiced. Your first post (from Jul 2018) when the expansion was announced....

Given I'm struggling to find much pro-Lothian stuff in your nearly 500 posts on this thread, I thought you must be referring to something else... Still, I did find this

Granted, you do make the compliment but the last line is.....
Click to expand...

Yawn, i find it a bit sad that you're wasting time looking at my old posts, that said with self isolation we all have plenty of time to spare it seems. Regarding the July 2018 post it was in sarcasm, make of it what you want.

CN04NRJ said:
The mental gymnastics required here to elevate First West Lothian above even other subsidiaries like Bristol in terms of fleet age is really quite something.

Looking back at your other posts if Lothian transfer Euro 6 B7RLEs to LCB it's 'a waste of resources' and 'depriving the city of more modern buses and bringing 04 plates (euro 5!) back on the road'. Whereas if First transfer out a large number of euro 6 E400s and bring elderly euro 3 Scanias in it's to 'enable Glasgow work to be converted to DD'.

I'm really not sure how you can claim your posting isn't biased when you skew facts towards a bizarrely pro-First viewpoint?
Click to expand...

It's not when you think about it, a large chunk of the West Lothian fleet is 2013 or newer, there are older vehicles but not that many. Places like Bristol still have far more older vehicles.

As for your second point... The E400s were not displaced by Scanias they were displaced for Streelites, the Scania came in to allow a PVR increase. My point there was that for the average punter a Streetlite is a like for like replacement (albeit a single decker), although it should be said that i do think Streetlites are entirely unsuitable for those routes.

Regarding Lothians B7RLEs, i did think at the time spending money on those 13 plate B7RLEs was a waste, however my view point on that has since changed. I do however still think putting the 04 plates on the X17 was questionable, in the same sense that i think First chucking those Scanais on to the X22/X23/X24/X25 and X38 is questionable...

Baileygirl said:
If you work in St John's and live in Kirknewton the train not an option. Also X18 and X28 serve the Tesco Warehouse which I would think is a point for key workers.
Click to expand...

You've still missed the point. It would still be possible for someone to get from Kirknewton to St John's (even if that means travelling by train and connecting with another bus), likewise the Tesco Warehouse is irrelevant as First have services past it too. I really am struggling to see how people are failing to understand my point regarding the X18/X27/X28 now, it's really not rocket science!...
 
TheGrandWazoo

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Jordan Adam said:
Yawn, i find it a bit sad that you're wasting time looking at my old posts, that said with self isolation we all have plenty of time to spare it seems. Regarding the July 2018 post it was in sarcasm, make of it what you want.
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Of course Jordan. Might be because I was actually making sure that I wasn't doing you a disservice. Classic diversionary tactic, I notice, rather than acknowledge the detail of what you've said.

I'm actually off to do some gardening. You're clearly no dab hand with a shovel yourself :lol:
 
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TheGrandWazoo

TheGrandWazoo

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Observer said:
Typical First, buy new stock as part of a government grant and then proceed to send it to Glasgow years later.
Click to expand...

Volvodart said:
They only got a few thousand per bus. It would not break First if they had to pay it back.
Click to expand...

@Volvodart has it on the head. First paid out the majority of the cost and it was only a fraction that came from the government. And they're still in Scotland....not like they've been sent to Wales.
 
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CN04NRJ

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Jordan Adam said:
Yawn, i find it a bit sad that you're wasting time looking at my old posts, that said with self isolation we all have plenty of time to spare it seems. Regarding the July 2018 post it was in sarcasm, make of it what you want.



It's not when you think about it, a large chunk of the West Lothian fleet is 2013 or newer, there are older vehicles but not that many. Places like Bristol still have far more older vehicles.

As for your second point... The E400s were not displaced by Scanias they were displaced for Streelites, the Scania came in to allow a PVR increase. My point there was that for the average punter a Streetlite is a like for like replacement (albeit a single decker), although it should be said that i do think Streetlites are entirely unsuitable for those routes.

Regarding Lothians B7RLEs, i did think at the time spending money on those 13 plate B7RLEs was a waste, however my view point on that has since changed. I do however still think putting the 04 plates on the X17 was questionable, in the same sense that i think First chucking those Scanais on to the X22/X23/X24/X25 and X38 is questionable...



You've still missed the point. It would still be possible for someone to get from Kirknewton to St John's (even if that means travelling by train and connecting with another bus), likewise the Tesco Warehouse is irrelevant as First have services past it too. I really am struggling to see how people are failing to understand my point regarding the X18/X27/X28 now, it's really not rocket science!...
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware almost all the old stock has gone/is about to go from Bristol with all the new gas buses.

My point was mainly that no matter the topic you always skew or misuse the facts to slant to an anti LCB view. You even interpreted the current emergency service reductions to mean all the routes not operating can't be viable so 'obviously' won't be returning after things go back to normal.

By that same logic are the routes suspended by Lothian city not returning - in your opinion?

I guess I just don't understand why people are anti/pro any company to that extent - especially if they don't have any financial or employment interest.
 
Jordan Adam

Jordan Adam

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CN04NRJ said:
As far as I'm aware almost all the old stock has gone/is about to go from Bristol with all the new gas buses

My point was mainly that no matter the topic you always skew or misuse the facts to slant to an anti LCB view. You even interpreted the current emergency service reductions to mean all the routes not operating can't be viable so 'obviously' won't be returning after things go back to normal.

By that same logic are the routes suspended by Lothian city not returning?
Click to expand...

Yawn. All i pointed out was that it was interesting LCB are not running the X17/275/280/287/X38/EX2. Someone then said it was because they were not vital services, i simply made the point that the same logic could be applied to the X18/X27/X28 as they're also covered by other means. I never mentioned First's services because the point had sod all to do with First, it was specifically about Lothians reduction. I don't see the issue...
 
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ScotRail158725

ScotRail158725

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Jordan Adam said:
Apparently it was because the vinyls were being torn off in the bus wash. Make of that what you will. :lol:
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tbf after about a month most of the side vinyls had corners sticking off or big ripd in them or some missing bits of it however i still think it could be future planning
 
ScotRail158725

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livi man said:
See two Lothian red buses doing west lothian work is all there buses broken down
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how could an entire fleet of 60 odd buses be all broken down? it’s because non of LCs fleet have bandit screens so for driver safety city fleet is being used
 
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overthewater

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All council contracts are running as normal right now, However the services were supposed to go out to tender two months ago, could we see no tenders until 2021?
 
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