West Yorkshire bus fares

[yorksrob]

basically there are some sad sacks on there who want a return to the 2p flat fare days ...

As the London experience has shown, simplified and regulated fares are the way to make bus transportation more popular and not a free-for-all, as experience everywhere else in the country has shown.

 

[AndyHudds]

As the London experience has shown, simplified and regulated fares are the way to make bus transportation more popular and not a free-for-all, as experience everywhere else in the country has shown.

Too much to ask for mate round West Yorkshire, too much like common sense and too much of a good idea. Metro and the bus companies like to give us the rough end of the stick when it comes to our bus services and fares.

 

[tbtc]

It can't be denied that First have a dominant position in most of the areas of West Yorkshire that they operate in, especially in Leeds and Bradford. Obviously they aren't dominant in Wakefield, Dewsbury or Keighley! Other operators generally stick to minor or tendered routes.

I don't think that First have any more of a dominant position in West Yorkshire than Yorkshire Rider did - there's certainly been more competition in Huddersfield and Halifax (though Leeds looks ripe for a "second operator" in the way that Stagecoach muscled into Sheffield/ Liverpool etc).

sorry have i landed on sheffield forum instead of rail UK ?

When people start arguing about the cheapest place to buy sausages ("I don't care what's in em, I just want sausages") then you know we've reached that stage!

As the London experience has shown, simplified and regulated fares are the way to make bus transportation more popular and not a free-for-all, as experience everywhere else in the country has shown.

Too much to ask for mate round West Yorkshire, too much like common sense and too much of a good idea. Metro and the bus companies like to give us the rough end of the stick when it comes to our bus services and fares.

Hmm. First introduced "simplified" fares in Leeds a couple of years ago (with the three basic fares IIRC), and there were loads of complaints.

People say that they want simplified fares, but then complain that it means an extra fifty pence to travel one stop beyond the boundary or whatever.

Look at the complaints you get in Edinburgh about the "simple" fares there (and how unfair it is that people on the East Lothian 113 have to pay a couple of quid to travel to Pencaitland etc).

 

[yorksrob]

Hmm. First introduced "simplified" fares in Leeds a couple of years ago (with the three basic fares IIRC), and there were loads of complaints.

People say that they want simplified fares, but then complain that it means an extra fifty pence to travel one stop beyond the boundary or whatever.

Look at the complaints you get in Edinburgh about the "simple" fares there (and how unfair it is that people on the East Lothian 113 have to pay a couple of quid to travel to Pencaitland etc).

Well, obviously if they simplify all the prices up, it will be less popular than if they simplify them down. However, I believe the relative success of bus transport over the past twenty years shows how a simple fare structure can encourage bus use.

Incidentally, in my pre Metrocard days, I used to use the bus daily, and one simplification which would have greatly benefited me would have been a day rider ticket that could be used on all companies buses. This wasn't available then and as far as I'm aware, isn't available now.

 

[tbtc]

Well, obviously if they simplify all the prices up, it will be less popular than if they simplify them down. However, I believe the relative success of bus transport over the past twenty years shows how a simple fare structure can encourage bus use

Well, if we assume that a change would be revenue neutral then a simplified system can mean people paying a quid to go two stops round the corner to subsidise someone paying the same fare on a five/ten mile journey.

I can imagine the complaints now!

(but I secretly suspect that those wanting a "simplified" fares structure mean that they want every fare to be fifty pence, rather than a serious attempt to rationalise fares based on current income)

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if we assume that a change would be revenue neutral then a simplified system can mean people paying a quid to go two stops round the corner to subsidise someone paying the same fare on a five/ten mile journey.

I can imagine the complaints now!

(but I secretly suspect that those wanting a "simplified" fares structure mean that they want every fare to be fifty pence, rather than a serious attempt to rationalise fares based on current income)

Or perhaps a zonal system with a publicly accountable body exercising some control over fare rises.

Just a thought ...

 

[tbtc]

Or perhaps a zonal system with a publicly accountable body exercising some control over fare rises.

Just a thought ...

Leeds has a kind of zonal system:

• £1.10 for four stops
• £2.10 within the inner city area ("Green Zone") or for shortish journeys outside it
• £2.80 for most tickets outside the inner city area (£2.50 off peak), which is the fare that the OP was complaining about for almost ten miles

Seems a lot simpler than most cities in the UK and seems to have caused more complaints than most, especially those travelling five stops who's journey costs a quid more than those travelling four stops.

But then, that's simplification for you.

 

[yorksrob]

Leeds has a kind of zonal system:

• £1.10 for four stops
• £2.10 within the inner city area ("Green Zone") or for shortish journeys outside it
• £2.80 for most tickets outside the inner city area (£2.50 off peak), which is the fare that the OP was complaining about for almost ten miles

Seems a lot simpler than most cities in the UK and seems to have caused more complaints than most, especially those travelling five stops who's journey costs a quid more than those travelling four stops.

But then, that's simplification for you.

Well, I can't speak for the rest of Leeds, but my bugbears when travelling regularly on the buses were:

Lack of company interchangeable tickets.
Waiting ages when all the buses seemed to go past "not in service".
Lack of return fares, only expensive day riders.
Constant fare increases.


Obviously the last one could happen under a regulated system, but I'd rather it were controlled by a publicly accountable organisation.

Small wonder I defected to rail at the earliest opportunity (and I have found Metro's zonal system generally easy and convenient to use for the most part).

 

[AnonymousUser1]

lack of return fares , only expensive day riders?

when the typical fare is 2 pound something for a single journey a 4 - 5 gbp day ticket is very good value - especially if your journey involves a change of bus ... i presume reference to return pricing is compared to off peak /CDR tickets ...

OPO or even crew served buses could not operate in the way the railways do with ticketing the nearest i've seen to this kind of through ticketing that doesn't rely on day tickets is the TWPTE trans fares dating from the era when buses into Newcastle were canned in favour of feeder services to the Metro

 

[yorksrob]

lack of return fares , only expensive day riders?

when the typical fare is 2 pound something for a single journey a 4 - 5 gbp day ticket is very good value - especially if your journey involves a change of bus ... i presume reference to return pricing is compared to off peak /CDR tickets ...

OPO or even crew served buses could not operate in the way the railways do with ticketing the nearest i've seen to this kind of through ticketing that doesn't rely on day tickets is the TWPTE trans fares dating from the era when buses into Newcastle were canned in favour of feeder services to the Metro

Put it this way.

I travel regularly to Leigh in Lancs.

The return ticket from Manc to Atherton costs less, inspite of being a greater distance, than the return hop between Atherton and Leigh (which would have to be a day rider). I know which one I consider to be good value.

Guess which one is decided by the "free" market.
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lack of return fares , only expensive day riders?

when the typical fare is 2 pound something for a single journey a 4 - 5 gbp day ticket is very good value - especially if your journey involves a change of bus ... i presume reference to return pricing is compared to off peak /CDR tickets ...

I still don't see why they can't offer a cheap return fare. A £4 - £5 day ticket is not good value if you just want to do a return journey. It is poor value.

 

[radamfi]

when the typical fare is 2 pound something for a single journey a 4 - 5 gbp day ticket is very good value - especially if your journey involves a change of bus

You might as well say that the £4 FirstDay in Greater Manchester is great value because the typical single fare is £3 to £4. You could argue that once you pay for your first ride you get all the rest free! Great value!?!

You have to ask yourself whether £4 is a fair price to pay for a typical day's travel. Good value if you are riding around all day, but most people just go there and back. Change of bus is irrelevant. Change of bus is usually included in single fares outside the UK and Ireland. I suppose we are so used to high fares now we think £4 is cheap.

Comparisons:

In the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, you can get a Lijnkaart giving you 10 single trips for either €10 (shorter trips, typically covering a single town) or €16 (any distance) for a fixed price, including all changes for up to 60/90 minutes.

http://www.delijn.be/vervoerbewijzen/types/kaart/index.htm

The Netherlands is traditionally much more expensive than Belgium, although quality is generally higher. In the Netherlands, with the OV-Chipkaart, bus/tram/metro single fares (again including all changes as long as there is less than 35 minutes between alighting and boarding) cost a fixed boarding fee plus a per km charge. So, for example, in Amsterdam it costs €0.86 + €0.145 per km. So a 3 miles (5 km) single trip including changes costs €1.60.

http://www.gvb.nl/reisinformatie/welke-kaart/Pages/default.aspx

Now does a £4 day ticket look cheap?

 

[wbbminerals]

It would be good if single fares weren't viewed by bus companies to be trade secrets. This attitude has no place in the 21st century.

 

[WestCoast]

For Britain's third largest conurbation by most measurements, I find the night bus provision in the West Midlands rather disappointing to say the least. In short, apart from some airport services, it doesn't really exist! The Cross City Line's last services are around 23.30 as well. Good thing that (pre-booked) taxi fares tend to be lower than in other big cities.

Put it this way, there were actually later scheduled buses and trains when I lived in semi-rural Lancashire.:-x
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It would be good if single fares weren't viewed by bus companies to be trade secrets. This attitude has no place in the 21st century.

Completely agree, although Stagecoach and independents have been happy to tell me the prices when asked, it seems First in particular enjoy withholding this information...:cry:
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As the London experience has shown, simplified and regulated fares are the way to make bus transportation more popular and not a free-for-all, as experience everywhere else in the country has shown.

Agreed, there's a reason why more bus journeys are made each day in London than in the rest of the country put together (source, "The Route Masters" BBC Documentary). It was circa. 6 million journeys IIRC in Greater London!

Birmingham bus fares are practically £2.00 single for all but the very shortest journeys (which are £1.70 for a few stops or £1.00 in the City Centre). Great for longer journeys, not so good for shorter ones IMO. Exact fare only using hoppers on NXWM and a few others as well. Of course, the take-up rates for bus passes are rather high...

 

[tbtc]

Lack of return fares, only expensive day riders

Surely having just a handful of single fares plus one "day ticket" is simpler than offering lots of return fares?

Simplicity, eh?

 

[yorksrob]

Surely having just a handful of single fares plus one "day ticket" is simpler than offering lots of return fares?

Simplicity, eh?

Presumably you would have a corresponding competitively priced return for each single fare offered. Hardly a labyrinthine fares structure.

We can get hung up on individual words as much as we like, however I would still prefer a regulated system of the type that operates in London.

 

[Deerfold]

Incidentally, in my pre Metrocard days, I used to use the bus daily, and one simplification which would have greatly benefited me would have been a day rider ticket that could be used on all companies buses. This wasn't available then and as far as I'm aware, isn't available now.

A MetroDay is £5.40 and is valid on all buses in West Yorkshire. About 4 years ago a restriction stopping it being used before 0930 was removed (and the name changed from Bus DayRover).

Last month an £8 Weekender was introduced valid from 1800 on Friday to 0000 Sunday night.

 

[yorksrob]

A MetroDay is £5.40 and is valid on all buses in West Yorkshire. About 4 years ago a restriction stopping it being used before 0930 was removed (and the name changed from Bus DayRover).

Last month an £8 Weekender was introduced valid from 1800 on Friday to 0000 Sunday night.

Some progress then. Not before time.

 

[Deerfold]

Too much to ask for mate round West Yorkshire, too much like common sense and too much of a good idea. Metro and the bus companies like to give us the rough end of the stick when it comes to our bus services and fares.

You don't appear to be listening to people telling you that Metro has no power to set bus fares or make companies run services in any particular way - they just have a relatively small budget to try and pay for services that bus companies don't want to run. They seem to do a relatively good job with a fairly limited (and falling) budget.

On the other hand some bus companies are taking the mickey (and, in my opinion, not taking a long-term view).

 

[radamfi]

It is true that now more than half of bus passengers in England are in London. Whilst I agree that the regulated environment, lowish flat fare and reasonable funding are the main reasons for that, you have to be slightly careful to take into account demographic issues driving the growth in passengers. There has been significant population growth in London. Car ownership amongst recent immigrants is low, such immigrants are used to using buses in their former country and so have continued to do so in London. These factors may have actually helped bus usage in other growing parts of the country, so without the immigration would be in an even more desperate state.

 

[WestCoast]

It is true that now more than half of bus passengers in England are in London. Whilst I agree that the regulated environment, lowish flat fare and reasonable funding are the main reasons for that, you have to be slightly careful to take into account demographic issues driving the growth in passengers. There has been significant population growth in London. Car ownership amongst recent immigrants is low, such immigrants are used to using buses in their former country and so have continued to do so in London. These factors may have actually helped bus usage in other growing parts of the country, so without the immigration would be in an even more desperate state.

It does seem that bus use has increased to varying extents in quite a number of cities across the UK, population increases through immigration will have no doubt contributed to that. I suspect bus use may have also increased in areas where the demographic is becoming older, I can think of several seaside towns where the buses seem busier than ever. Much of these increases outside London seem to arise out of necessity rather than a willingness to shift modes...

 

[AndyHudds]

It is true that now more than half of bus passengers in England are in London. Whilst I agree that the regulated environment, lowish flat fare and reasonable funding are the main reasons for that, you have to be slightly careful to take into account demographic issues driving the growth in passengers. There has been significant population growth in London. Car ownership amongst recent immigrants is low, such immigrants are used to using buses in their former country and so have continued to do so in London. These factors may have actually helped bus usage in other growing parts of the country, so without the immigration would be in an even more desperate state.

Is this post a joke? So according to you bus patronage has increased in London due to there being an influx in immigrants and that they are used to catching the bus therefore they continue? You couldn't make it up.

Next you'll be telling us next that immigrants use buses and the British people use the tube to get around.
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You don't appear to be listening to people telling you that Metro has no power to set bus fares or make companies run services in any particular way - they just have a relatively small budget to try and pay for services that bus companies don't want to run. They seem to do a relatively good job with a fairly limited (and falling) budget.

On the other hand some bus companies are taking the mickey (and, in my opinion, not taking a long-term view).

Stop being condescending.

I fully understand that Metro have no control over the buses, fares or whatever. But they are the PTE and they are accountable to the tax payers of West Yorkshire in respect of public transport provision. They seem to be taking matters into their own hands with the QC scheme trying stop the mickey taking by certain bus companies which I applaud, but you'll never convince me they do a 'good job', compared to other PTE's.

 

[tbtc]

I fully understand that Metro have no control over the buses, fares or whatever. But they are the PTE and they are accountable to the tax payers of West Yorkshire in respect of public transport provision. They seem to be taking matters into their own hands with the QC scheme trying stop the mickey taking by certain bus companies which I applaud, but you'll never convince me they do a 'good job', compared to other PTE's.

Really?

A lot of people from outside West Yorkshire have been envious about the spending that Metro have made, the improvements that they have secured. Just read a few threads about Northern Rail - some are convinced that the grass is greener in West Yorkshire.

But despite the new bus stations and the comparatively decent railway services (333s etc) and the cheap train fares and all of that, there's no nightbuses in Huddersfield. Can't spend money on everything though.

 

[Deerfold]

Is this post a joke? So according to you bus patronage has increased in London due to there being an influx in immigrants and that they are used to catching the bus therefore they continue? You couldn't make it up.

No, they were saying that increased immigration is one factor in the increasing number of people catching buses in London.

Next you'll be telling us next that immigrants use buses and the British people use the tube to get around.

Given many immigrants have low paying jobs and people with low paying jobs are more likely to travel by bus than tube there is some correlation.

Stop being condescending.

I fully understand that Metro have no control over the buses, fares or whatever.

It really didn't sound liked that to me from your post (which I've repeated below).

Metro and the bus companies like to give us the rough end of the stick when it comes to our bus services and fares.

But they are the PTE and they are accountable to the tax payers of West Yorkshire in respect of public transport provision. They seem to be taking matters into their own hands with the QC scheme trying stop the mickey taking by certain bus companies which I applaud, but you'll never convince me they do a 'good job', compared to other PTE's.

I'm not sure they've done dreadfully with things they have control over. When they had more direct control over local rail services in the 80s and 90s there were huge improvements to services. They came up with a tram scheme which was not allowed funding at the final stage.

They did a dodgy deal a few years ago which gave West Yorkshire higher than average rail fare rises for several years in exchange for a handful of extra services and I'm not sure about the NGT trolleybus and poilitics is slowing down the introduction of QCs but I'm not sure what major things they could have done within their budget and powers/

 

[bb21]

Is this post a joke? So according to you bus patronage has increased in London due to there being an influx in immigrants and that they are used to catching the bus therefore they continue? You couldn't make it up.

Next you'll be telling us next that immigrants use buses and the British people use the tube to get around.

Either you don't understand what he is saying or you are deliberately missing the point.

but you'll never convince me they do a 'good job', compared to other PTE's.

In that case it is your opinion, but don't expect others to think that you are forming this opinion objectively.

 

[34D]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of Leeds, but my bugbears when travelling regularly on the buses were:

Lack of company interchangeable tickets.
Waiting ages when all the buses seemed to go past "not in service".
Lack of return fares, only expensive day riders.
Constant fare increases.


Obviously the last one could happen under a regulated system, but I'd rather it were controlled by a publicly accountable organisation.

Small wonder I defected to rail at the earliest opportunity (and I have found Metro's zonal system generally easy and convenient to use for the most part).

In west Yorkshire, two operators at least offer their own return tickets:
-centrebus
-connexions buses

Also, on Kirkstall Road, day/return tickets from each operator are interchangeable

 

[61653 HTAFC]

In west Yorkshire, two operators at least offer their own return tickets:
-centrebus
-connexions buses

Also, on Kirkstall Road, day/return tickets from each operator are interchangeable

I can't speak for other areas of West Yorks, but on my local First service (the 301/302 Golcar circular in Huddersfield) a return is available (£2.60 as opposed to a £1.60 single). Centrebus (as K-Line) compete on this route but tickets aren't accepted on other operators services- K-Line's fare is the same, but their return is MORE expensive and the service operates approximately every 45mins in each direction (compared to every 20 with First- on paper at least!), and finishes before 1800- so I imagine the number of returns sold on this route each day can be counted on one hand! I've little time for Firstgroup, but they have the upper hand round here. Hopefully if QCs come in certain aspects will improve (the return of the late evening bus on Monday-Wednesday for example) but I worry that there'll be cuts or fare increases in other areas to fund it.

 

[yorksrob]

In west Yorkshire, two operators at least offer their own return tickets:
-centrebus
-connexions buses

Also, on Kirkstall Road, day/return tickets from each operator are interchangeable

That is absolutely a good start, but IMO all routes should offer a traditional cheap return and all multi journey tickets should be interchangeable between all companies across the Metro area.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not particularly keen on return fares as it makes single fares even higher. Return fares are generally only for the benefit of the bus company, to ensure that you return using the same operator.

 

[Mugby]

Just out of interest, could someone tell me what the single fare from Bradford to Leeds is on Service 72?

I make this journey occasionally on Sunday mornings and I was thinking of using the 72 in order to sample the StreetCar (I know, I'm depraved!)

I normally book Nat Exp for £1.90 single.

 

[Deerfold]

Just out of interest, could someone tell me what the single fare from Bradford to Leeds is on Service 72?

I make this journey occasionally on Sunday mornings and I was thinking of using the 72 in order to sample the StreetCar (I know, I'm depraved!)

I normally book Nat Exp for £1.90 single.

It's not stated explicitly, but http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/bradford/journey_planning/hyperlink/ suggests it's £2.80 based on the quoted savings on the multi-journey products. You could travel on it (or any other First service in West Yorkshire) all day off-peak for £3.90.

Do National Express charge their booking fee on that?