Western Greyhound Fire and subsequent WG general discussion.

[richw]

My mistake I thought they were now the same company. They are however under common ownership it seems.

I'm unsure whether Cornwall Ferries have purchased Enterprise or not, I know they have Falmouth Park and Float/Ride (and own all the infrastructure at Ponshardon), King Harry Ferry and St Mawes Ferry.
Apparently the savings from buying their own buses rather than tendering it out are massive, even factoring in the cost of buying the buses. Since having their own buses the operation hours are longer and the price for the bus option has reduced.

 

[SWTH]

More fleet news:

In:
Y524 NHK (Trident/ALX400) is now staying permenantly.
Another as yet unidentified Trident/ALX400 will be arriving tomorrow.

Out:
R472 RRA (Olympian/ELC Pyoneer) will be leaving tomorrow for pastures new.

All info according to company sources.

 

[richw]

Surprised they are getting rid of one of their own vehicles whilst still got so many on loan.

 

[SWTH]

2nd Trident is Y437 NHK (Stagecoach 17437). Observed at Summercourt this morning.

 

[83G/84D]

For the the last day of operation on Truro Park & Ride today, Western Greyhound turned out one of their Routemaster's RM1062 (62 CLT). It operated all day along with the 2 demo loaned buses, 2 Park & Ride Citaro's and the green Citaro (206).

From what I could ascertain from WG staff the loan Optare & Mercedes are to be returned next week,although the company would like to have kept the Optare longer.

The 2 Park & Ride liveried Citaro's (203 & 208) will be operated by First from next week whilst the green one (206) will be retained but will not go back on services 510 or 599 as it is not suitable for long runs.

No decisions on numbers of or types of buses to replace those lost in the fire will be made until the details of Cornwall Council decisions of future funding for bus services in Cornwall are revealed. Speculation is that there will be widespread cuts to funding resulting in loss of some early morning / evening and weekend services which will affect most operators not just Western Greyhound.

Time will tell.

 

[richw]

On Western Greyhound's Facebook there were a number of comments that a majority of staff are TUPE-ing across to First. Many of the comments on their were from people saying the staff make the service not the operator so they were happy to be keeping the staff

 

[Goldfish62]

No decisions on numbers of or types of buses to replace those lost in the fire will be made until the details of Cornwall Council decisions of future funding for bus services in Cornwall are revealed. Speculation is that there will be widespread cuts to funding resulting in loss of some early morning / evening and weekend services which will affect most operators not just Western Greyhound.

Time will tell.

I thought that's what they would do. They've got loads of Varios to get rid of by the DDA deadline of 1 Jan 2015 so if WGL lose loads of work it could perversely help.

As regards funding cuts Cornwall Council are undertaking a public consultation exercise, asking people what their priorities for council services. Make sure you have your say in support of bus services.

 

[SWTH]

I thought there were plenty to go but actually many of them escape the deadline due to their being classed as coaches.

Can anyone please confirm exactly what is defined as a coach?

Do dual-purpose seats qualify for being described as 'coach-spec'?

 

[richw]

I thought there were plenty to go but actually many of them escape the deadline due to their being classed as coaches.

Can anyone please confirm exactly what is defined as a coach?

Do dual-purpose seats qualify for being described as 'coach-spec'?

I've read somewhere online before what defines a coach, possibly another thread on this forum. I will try to find it and link to here.

I know buses with capacity under 22 passengers are exempt from DDA.

 

[Goldfish62]

I've read somewhere online before what defines a coach, possibly another thread on this forum. I will try to find it and link to here.

I know buses with capacity under 22 passengers are exempt from DDA.

None of the Varios are under 22 capacity. It is correct that coaches do not have to comply with DDA until 2020, but just because a bus has coach seats doesn't mean it's licensed as a coach. I believe one of the criteria is that no standing is allowed - this is clearly not the case with WGL's Varios.

I know of operators elsewhere with coach-seated Varios who acknowledge that they can;t use them on scheduled services after the end of next year.

 

[richw]

None of the Varios are under 22 capacity. It is correct that coaches do not have to comply with DDA until 2020, but just because a bus has coach seats doesn't mean it's licensed as a coach. I believe one of the criteria is that no standing is allowed - this is clearly not the case with WGL's Varios.

I know of operators elsewhere with coach-seated Varios who acknowledge that they can;t use them on scheduled services after the end of next year.

Some of the Varios are 24 seats I believe. Make 2 of them disappear, and don't allow standing, and they wont even have a 2020 deadline due to the exemption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://coachandbusmarket.com/ads/me...us-with-tacho-silver-2005-diesel-73000-miles/

Can an existing Vario be converted to have a rear lift like this one and become DDA compliant?

 

[Goldfish62]

Some of the Varios are 24 seats I believe. Make 2 of them disappear, and don't allow standing, and they wont even have a 2020 deadline due to the exemption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can an existing Vario be converted to have a rear lift like this one and become DDA compliant?

Not true. You still need a wheelchair lift after 1919. And quite how reducing the seating capacity and banning standing would be a reasonable way forward is beyond me. You certainly wouldn't get a bus relicensed as a coach by doing that.

 

[SWTH]

Looking at the WGL fleetlist the majority of the Varios are listed as DP33F seating capacity, none of which if I remember correctly have any standing capacity. The exceptions in the active fleet are:

213/T400 CBC B29F*
500/S100 PAF DP31F
501/S501 SRL DP27F
522/V22 WGL B27F
528/Y28 WGL B27F
558/WK02 SAT DP29F
559/WK02 SUN DP31F
574/WK02 TUE DP31F

*Capacity if I remember correctly.
These all have standing capacity of between 3 and 12, though the fleetlist does not give details.

So, does being registered as having DP seats with no standing mean the vehicle is classed as a bus or a coach? Show me a Vario and to me it's a bus - if I hired a 33-seater and a draughty Vario with bus doors, destination gear and ticket machine based turned up, I'd be rather unhappy. Of course, it comes down to complying with the law, and whether it is a case of abiding by the letter or the spirit of the law.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not true. You still need a wheelchair lift after 1919.

Can you clarify what you say above as the "1919" figure is causing me not a little confusion.

1919 seems an unusual time of the day to make such a regulation.

 

[richw]

Not true. You still need a wheelchair lift after 1919. And quite how reducing the seating capacity and banning standing would be a reasonable way forward is beyond me. You certainly wouldn't get a bus relicensed as a coach by doing that.

The gov website states you do not need a vehicle lift or DDA compliance for a vehicle under 22 seats even after 2020 (it was dated 2005 so maybe out of date)

I have been in Truro today, and the P+R seemed more frequent, not sure if it actually was or I just noticed as First have put the hired buses into the P+R Livery with graphics. They did not have buses standing idol at Langarth neither which was always the case with WG.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at the WGL fleetlist the majority of the Varios are listed as DP33F seating capacity, none of which if I remember correctly have any standing capacity. The exceptions in the active fleet are:

213/T400 CBC B29F*
500/S100 PAF DP31F
501/S501 SRL DP27F
522/V22 WGL B27F
528/Y28 WGL B27F
558/WK02 SAT DP29F
559/WK02 SUN DP31F
574/WK02 TUE DP31F

*Capacity if I remember correctly.
These all have standing capacity of between 3 and 12, though the fleetlist does not give details.

So, does being registered as having DP seats with no standing mean the vehicle is classed as a bus or a coach? Show me a Vario and to me it's a bus - if I hired a 33-seater and a draughty Vario with bus doors, destination gear and ticket machine based turned up, I'd be rather unhappy. Of course, it comes down to complying with the law, and whether it is a case of abiding by the letter or the spirit of the law.

I know for coach registration, standing isn't permitted. Unsure of the other criteria

 

[83G/84D]

The gov website states you do not need a vehicle lift or DDA compliance for a vehicle under 22 seats even after 2020 (it was dated 2005 so maybe out of date)

I have been in Truro today, and the P+R seemed more frequent, not sure if it actually was or I just noticed as First have put the hired buses into the P+R Livery with graphics. They did not have buses standing idol at Langarth neither which was always the case with WG.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I know for coach registration, standing isn't permitted. Unsure of the other criteria

RichW- I went to Truro this afternoon and a Reading Scania was on standby! The frequency seemed to be a bit awry with 10 minutes between some buses and longer between others.

To be fair to First - it is their first day and road closures in the City Centre probably didn't help. Although buses were allowed through the closures other traffic had to find alternative routes and traffic was slower than normal entering and leaving the City.

It was interesting to note that none of the buses used on the service carried First fleetnumbers.

 

[overthewater]

I know for coach registration, standing isn't permitted. Unsure of the other criteria

When did this rule come into use? because the old Stagecoach coaches with 51 seats used to take 8 standing.

 

[cainebj]

When did this rule come into use? because the old Stagecoach coaches with 51 seats used to take 8 standing.

It's been in place for a long time. Those Stagecoach coaches were classed as buses. Most, if not all, have since been re-certified to not carry standees, and therefore now need to meet the 2020 deadline rather than 2016.

My original post on this thead:

It depends how they're licensed. If it has a COIF to carry standing passengers then it is classed as a bus regardless of interior specification etc, if it is seated capacity only then it is classed as a coach. A number of Stagecoach's "interurban" spec coaches were licensed to carry standees when new but had been re-licensed to be seated only so they'd be classed as coaches rather than single deck buses.

 

[richw]

RichW- I went to Truro this afternoon and a Reading Scania was on standby! The frequency seemed to be a bit awry with 10 minutes between some buses and longer between others.

To be fair to First - it is their first day and road closures in the City Centre probably didn't help. Although buses were allowed through the closures other traffic had to find alternative routes and traffic was slower than normal entering and leaving the City.

It was interesting to note that none of the buses used on the service carried First fleetnumbers.

All six were out when I was there, I'm guessing there was delays due to the traffic, as when I was about there was a bus every 6-7 mins, I'm guessing there may have been a bigger gap somewhere, and they were bunched up due to the traffic.

 

[overthewater]

It's been in place for a long time. Those Stagecoach coaches were classed as buses. Most, if not all, have since been re-certified to not carry standees, and therefore now need to meet the 2020 deadline rather than 2016.

My original post on this thead:

Thank you.

 

[Goldfish62]

Looking at the WGL fleetlist the majority of the Varios are listed as DP33F seating capacity, none of which if I remember correctly have any standing capacity. The exceptions in the active fleet are:

213/T400 CBC B29F*
500/S100 PAF DP31F
501/S501 SRL DP27F
522/V22 WGL B27F
528/Y28 WGL B27F
558/WK02 SAT DP29F
559/WK02 SUN DP31F
574/WK02 TUE DP31F

*Capacity if I remember correctly.
These all have standing capacity of between 3 and 12, though the fleetlist does not give details.

So, does being registered as having DP seats with no standing mean the vehicle is classed as a bus or a coach? Show me a Vario and to me it's a bus - if I hired a 33-seater and a draughty Vario with bus doors, destination gear and ticket machine based turned up, I'd be rather unhappy. Of course, it comes down to complying with the law, and whether it is a case of abiding by the letter or the spirit of the law.

Right, I asked a couple of my industry contacts today for clarification.

A PSV is a bus if standing is allowed, and a coach if no standing is allowed. It's as simple as that. Whether the seats are high or low back, or whether there is a luggage locker are irrelevant. For DDA buses must be low floor and a wheelchair ramp. Coaches must have a lift, or ramp if they have a low floor, or low floor section.

They also confirmed that Varios which are licensed for standing passengers (thus are buses) cannot be used on scheduled services after 2014, whether they have a wheelchair lift or not.

I suppose WGL could try to re-certify them as coaches and ban standing, but I doubt if Cornwall Council would allow such vehicles on their supported services and they certainly wouldn't go down well with the travelling public.

So, it's surely goodbye to the Varios at WGL after next year, unless of course they want to retain them solely for private hires, which aren't covered by DDA.

I should add that the DDA regs came in in 2000 so shouldn't come as any surprise to operators!

 

[Titfield]

It is worth reading the PSVAR - Public Service Vehicle Accessibility Regulations.

This gives good guidance on the subject.

 

[SWTH]

Thank you Goldfish62, that is very helpful.

Unfortunatley I doubt very much that all the Varios will be gone in 16 months if WGL stay independent. Even before the fire they had started a programme of reactivation for the oldest Varios to cover vehicle shortages. From what I know of Cornwall Council, they are prioritising cost over quality of service, so although there'll be plenty of moans and groans from the public, the coach-spec Varios are probably here for a while.

 

[Goldfish62]

Thank you Goldfish62, that is very helpful.

Unfortunatley I doubt very much that all the Varios will be gone in 16 months if WGL stay independent. Even before the fire they had started a programme of reactivation for the oldest Varios to cover vehicle shortages. From what I know of Cornwall Council, they are prioritising cost over quality of service, so although there'll be plenty of moans and groans from the public, the coach-spec Varios are probably here for a while.

Just to clarify, their coach seated Varios are buses, not coaches, as they are certified for standing passengers. They cannot therefore be used after next year. They could be recertified and standing banned, but I understand that recertification is expensive and unlikely to be successful if seen as a way of circumventing accessibility regulations.

 

[SWTH]

Certified for standing despite the stated capacity in the cabs being 33 seated no standing in all except the ones I listed?

 

[Goldfish62]

Certified for standing despite the stated capacity in the cabs being 33 seated no standing in all except the ones I listed?

Many apologies, SWTH. I misread your original post. As only the eight you listed have standing capacity they will need to go, but the rest can soldier on until the end of 2019. The couple with lifts, if fully functioning, could go on beyond that.

Sorry again for misreading your post.

 

[SWTH]

No problem! To the best of my knowledge Varios 591 & 592 (the two lift-fitted machines) are not currently compliant with DDA, although as built they would have been.

 

[richw]

No problem! To the best of my knowledge Varios 591 & 592 (the two lift-fitted machines) are not currently compliant with DDA, although as built they would have been.

They are compliant with DDA (2000?) however not DDA (2005?)
I have put the years in brackets as not sure of the exact years, but they meet the earlier DDA regs but not the latter

 

[robertclark125]

We're calling their Varios coach seated. In the circumstances, with them being classified as buses, perhaps the best description of these Varios is Dual Purpose?

 

[SWTH]

They are compliant with DDA (2000?) however not DDA (2005?)
I have put the years in brackets as not sure of the exact years, but they meet the earlier DDA regs but not the latter

They should be, but with various features and fittings 'disappearing' over the years (one has the tail lift plated over) neither currently comply. Of course, when required in 2020 the features can be reinstated.