We've got the Key, it's no secret... (Smartcards on GTR)

[Envy123]

The Luton Airport Parkway extension makes sense, although I'm not sure that Luton station would be a part of the Oyster network?

Also, still waiting for news for the Hadley Wood to Welwyn extension. Potters Bar is too useful to not be a part of Oyster, what with the 5 trains per hour.

 

[transmanche]

Potters Bar is too useful to not be a part of Oyster, what with the 5 trains per hour.

Plus the fact that you can use Oyster on a bus to the station, but not on a train from the station.

 

[Aictos]

I do hope all these extensions happen and we're just waiting for TfL or Boris to announce it with a huge fanfare soon.

Why not announce a joint public event by both GTR and TfL at Kings Cross for example announcing the launch of both the Key and extension of Oyster attended by senior figures within DfT, GTR, TfL, London Travelwach etc

The only other hiccup with Hertford is when Abellio took over the Hertford East line, I believe a franchise promise was made to extend Oyster to Hertford East which seems to have now gone quiet...

When Oyster does come to Hertford North, will it encourage more people from Hertford East considering it will have smartcard ticketing which Hertford East won't and 2. Will it encourage TfL, DfT and Abellio to extend Oyster to Hertford East as well?

Just seems to be odd if one station of the stations group offers Oyster and the other doesn't, surely it is easiest if both offer Oyster.

 

[Hadders]

Why not announce a joint public event by both GTR and TfL at Kings Cross for example announcing the launch of both the Key and extension of Oyster attended by senior figures within DfT, GTR, TfL, London Travelwach etc

The only other hiccup with Hertford is when Abellio took over the Hertford East line, I believe a franchise promise was made to extend Oyster to Hertford East which seems to have now gone quiet...

When Oyster does come to Hertford North, will it encourage more people from Hertford East considering it will have smartcard ticketing which Hertford East won't and 2. Will it encourage TfL, DfT and Abellio to extend Oyster to Hertford East as well?

Just seems to be odd if one station of the stations group offers Oyster and the other doesn't, surely it is easiest if both offer Oyster.

Or just abolish the station group which is what they tried to do with the withdrawal of fares from Boundary Zone 6 and London Terminals to Hertford Stations.

Less flexibility for passengers but apparently this is what they want!

Thankfully members of this forum were able to ensure they were reinstated.

 

[JaJaWa]

The DfT was initially opposed to the Oyster extensions (so some of the earlier ones were cancelled) because the technology was not compatible with ITSO, however it now is so they have encouraged this roll-out.

 

[Envy123]

Plus the fact that you can use Oyster on a bus to the station, but not on a train from the station.

Agreed, and it would allow Hadley Wood passengers to double back via Potters Bar to get to King's Cross.

 

[user15681]

Apologies for being late to the discussion and playing catch up with all matters Key...

Staff still appear unaware of what's happening, or any dates (but it's been said for some time it will be September) but it's clearly happening.

Yes, end of September 2015 is what I've read. All of Thameslink, but I believe only as far as Royston/Huntingdon on Great Northern at first.

Here was my last update on it: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2139074&postcount=3

That's a fairly accurate and succinct summary - although some of those (unrelated) seem to be ahead of schedule, so will happen before the 'by XXXX' commitment.

The Luton Airport Parkway is definitely one I've heard about as 'happening'. The hope was also that TfL would agree to allow Oyster to be used on the airport bus link. Obviously I don't know whether they have agreed or not, but it'd be a bonus if so.

P.s And for the collectors amongst you out there, I saw a picture in one document (I can't remember which) of a Key card with a white background and green/purple decorations/writing which I've not seen before.

 

[tsr]

P.s And for the collectors amongst you out there, I saw a picture in one document (I can't remember which) of a Key card with a white background and green/purple decorations/writing which I've not seen before.

That could be either the back of the staff key cards or possibly (I'm not sure) the styling of the gateline pass.

Previously, gateline pass key cards have been purple. I believe they have all just expired - which would be at the same time as the current staff travel ones - to be replaced ASAP...

 

[JaJaWa]

That's a fairly accurate and succinct summary - although some of those (unrelated) seem to be ahead of schedule, so will happen before the 'by XXXX' commitment.

The Dartford press have announced that Oyster will now be coming to Dartford in September 2015 (instead of the previously announced December 2016). This is of course on Govia's other TOC Southeastern, and one would presume that the extensions will launch in one go.

The Luton Airport Parkway is definitely one I've heard about as 'happening'. The hope was also that TfL would agree to allow Oyster to be used on the airport bus link. Obviously I don't know whether they have agreed or not, but it'd be a bonus if so.

Piecing together the latest press releases, Luton Airport definitely seem to think that Oyster will be coming in September, and they / Thameslink are making the shuttle bus free again.

P.s And for the collectors amongst you out there, I saw a picture in one document (I can't remember which) of a Key card with a white background and green/purple decorations/writing which I've not seen before.

Presumably there will be a Thameslink and Great Northern branded Key launched (or it could include Southern too, and be green and purple like the ticket booking website).

 

[sarahj]

That could be either the back of the staff key cards or possibly (I'm not sure) the styling of the gateline pass.

Previously, gateline pass key cards have been purple. I believe they have all just expired - which would be at the same time as the current staff travel ones - to be replaced ASAP...

Yes, all good fun the fact that no staff passes open the barriers. Mean when I pop out for my fag at London Bridge I have join the masses at the manned barrier.

It seems the new staff passes will be of a different design.

 

[infobleep]

Yes there are completely seperate sections on each card for different operators/services. However, currently most most operators/services will check that you are using their card when loading a product on, and only allow you to do so if it is. The exception to this is Nexus (Tyne and Wear Metro) in Newcastle, who don't perform the check, allowing you to load their products on to any ITSO card, not just the Nexus 'Pop card'. This is to benefit the large amount of people with Stagecoach 'Smart cards' and Go Ahead 'The Key' from their local bus operations in Newcastle.

What are the benefits of disallowing other providers products on ones cards? Will they ever allow passengers to load other products onto their cards or will it always be the case passengers need multiple cards?

Indeed there were, and just to remind ourselves, the published franchise agreement says

It's the 'use reasonable endeavours' bit that makes it quite vague and open to not actually happening.

But does anyone know for certain? I could understand it if TfL was telling the TOC to keep quiet before making a big announcement, but I suspect there's no big announcement coming...

Is there chance they will decide it doesn't work financially?

Plus the fact that you can use Oyster on a bus to the station, but not on a train from the station.

You can get buses using Oyster from Dorking; Esher; Claygate and Hinchley Wood and none of the stations in the towns offer Oyster or are likely to in the near future as far as I know. In the case of at least Claygate and Hinchley Wood, the bus stops are near the station and even called things like Hinchley Wood railway station bus stop.

There are some odd anomalies. Addlestone to Kingston and Guildford to Kingston bus services are not covered by Oyster but Dorking to Kingston is!

 

[JaJaWa]

P.s And for the collectors amongst you out there, I saw a picture in one document (I can't remember which) of a Key card with a white background and green/purple decorations/writing which I've not seen before.

Attached the image of what I presume is the GTR (TSGN) Key.

Info about the Key from the new issue of Connections (confirms no full rollout on Great Northern yet):

The key
Southern was the first train company in the UK rail network to introduce a ticket smartcard and this will be available to our Great Northern (between London, Royston and Huntingdon) and Thameslink customers from this autumn. With it you can buy tickets and season tickets online, or use one of our self-service ticket machines outside London, and simply touch in and out at the ticket gates. We will be bringing in new innovative uses for the key, such as a pay-as-you-go scheme that is currently available in some Southern areas.


 

[jon0844]

That reads to me like the PAYG features will come later. Sigh. (I hope that I am wrong and it's just badly worded).

Otherwise, in reality, I'm still going to need to use a machine before travelling - which is what I sort of hoped would be eliminated, allowing me to just tap in and go.

Besides the times where Oyster is cheaper than a paper ticket, one of the big benefits of PAYG is that you can change plans as you go. Travel more or less, and not need to worry about ticket extensions, or having bought a ticket you no longer need. No problems about staying on the train for an extra stop etc etc.

If it's just a case of buying a ticket and loading it on a card, that's clearly good still (especially for season ticket holders, who have far greater protection if a season is lost) but still rather disappointing for a lot of other people - especially leisure travellers.

I really do hope Oyster will come too now.

 

[JaJaWa]

PAYG has always been coming later, it's on available only a very limited part of the Southern network (keyGo) which is outside London.

 

[jon0844]

The fact it's still limited on Southern suggests I could be in with a long wait then.

 

[button_boxer]

What are the benefits of disallowing other providers products on ones cards? Will they ever allow passengers to load other products onto their cards or will it always be the case passengers need multiple cards?

I imagine integration between operators might be a bit of a pain in the case of lost or stolen cards. How does hotlisting work on ITSO, is there a central database of hotlisted cards that all operators contribute to or does each operator maintain their own private list including just their own issued cards (plus ENCTS and PTE cards as appropriate)?

 

[JaJaWa]

Govia Southeastern will apparently be launching Oyster and Contactless between St Pancras International and Stratford International next week: https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards.

 

[jon0844]

Was talking to someone at GTR today about Oyster to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City, and was told that the latest rumour going around is that TfL could be planning to announce that it is taking over the running of the Moorgate services, and will take over the procurement of the new rolling stock still to be ordered.

Now I know I've said for years that the Moorgate trains would be ideal for LO, but it's always been discounted as not going to happen and never going to happen.

Could of course be one of the many rumours, and I'm obviously helping fuel it now. I was also told that there are now people using smartcards on the line, successfully opening the gates, but he assumed they were staff or a contractor.

 

[Envy123]

Was talking to someone at GTR today about Oyster to Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City, and was told that the latest rumour going around is that TfL could be planning to announce that it is taking over the running of the Moorgate services, and will take over the procurement of the new rolling stock still to be ordered.

Now I know I've said for years that the Moorgate trains would be ideal for LO, but it's always been discounted as not going to happen and never going to happen.

Could of course be one of the many rumours, and I'm obviously helping fuel it now. I was also told that there are now people using smartcards on the line, successfully opening the gates, but he assumed they were staff or a contractor.

Actually, it's not so unlikely. Here's a map of possible takeovers from one of the articles on London Reconnections - http://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/possibletakeovers.jpg

 

[swt_passenger]

Actually, it's not so unlikely. Here's a map of possible takeovers from one of the articles on London Reconnections - http://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/possibletakeovers.jpg

That reflects TfL's wish to take over ALL suburban services, but doesn't make the GN Moorgate service any more or less likely than before now; e.g. SWT's routes are all shown with the same colour code as well...

I reckon when people say it (Moorgate GN) 'isn't happening', they are reporting the current situation as per various ITTs such as the TSGN one, I think most people realise it can change in the future. I personally don't see it suddenly happening before the new stock is ordered.

But the member of GTR staff quoted may have just seen a post in a forum, or on a blog, for all anyone knows - it gets suggested every few weeks in quite a few places...

 

[jon0844]

It would be a good time to do it though. The trains are yet to be ordered, so TfL would likely want to get the trains it wants - so what better time than before you go out to tender?

Doing a makeover of the 313s would be as easy as just copying the work being carried out on the 315s.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Edit: I've just discovered that if you want to buy a ticket online, you need to buy it THREE days before travel for a day ticket.

I thought it was bad enough having to wait two hours (up to) to collect a paper ticket bought online, and find it frustrating to have to arrange some top ups/changes on Oyster the night before, but three days?

Clearly smartcards aren't set up to work for ordinary travellers, or at least not anyone that wakes up, looks out and says 'Let's go into London'. Paper tickets certainly won't be leaving the railway network anytime soon. Given there's no PAYG coming yet, I am really disappointed as without Oyster acceptance (as of yet, still no confirmation for the GN route) the Key really isn't going to be a great deal of use to me - or a lot of people.

Season ticket holders will be fine, sure, but things like this will help delay a national roll out (and widespread acceptance) of smartcards for the whole UK.

Can I assume that nobody within the railway industry really cares for smartcards? Not only is it already totally disjointed, but even where it is being introduced it seems like a series of bodges. GTR said to me on Twitter it's for aftersales to be completed. So, what, is it a manual process to manage smartcard ticket purchases online?

Why the hell isn't the DfT taking ownership of smartcards and making damn sure that when introduced, it works properly with all the back end systems set up and a desire to make it as painless as something like Oyster? I appreciate Oyster has had its fair share of issues, especially with the introduction on NR, but you'd think those lessons had been learnt by now.

 

[Hadders]

Looks like another 'benefit' of smart cards. Still the DfT and TOC's will claim it's all much simpler and what passengers want.

 

[jon0844]

I managed to get a ticket for Monday from the TVM because you have to wait three days there too! Only peak fares available as well, so no option for off peak or railcards.

Still, I've loaded one on so let's see how it goes on Monday!

I'll attach a video later showing the user interface for buying smartcard fares.

 

[Stats]

Edit: I've just discovered that if you want to buy a ticket online, you need to buy it THREE days before travel for a day ticket.

Where did you discover that? It's the usual up to 2 hours from purchasing online to the ticket being available to load on to the card at the gate. What might be the case is that you have to order The Key card online 3 days before you want to travel, and then you can buy tickets for travel the same day once you have received it?

 

[jon0844]

No, it's three days before you can collect. Not two hours, and even then you can proceed by selecting a later train and buying (then collecting almost immediately most of the time). This is because it's a smartcard fare and is done different than if I buy a paper ticket.

And on the machine itself, you can't buy a ticket for a service until the third day. Very odd, and very restrictive to the point of basically being useless for me and anyone else who isn't buying a season.

The descriptions for the tickets are a big vague too. I hope that will be fixed by September.

 

[Stats]

I'm puzzled. On the Southern Key it is up to 2 hours. I know this from experience, and it says it on the website: (point 6 under how to use the key): www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/the-key-smartcard/

I didn't think The Key was available on GN yet?

 

[jon0844]

Go online, 'buy' a ticket that's marked for smartcard download (you can buy paper tickets too, obviously) and right at the end when you're about to select where to collect the ticket, you'll be told it has to be three days. The TVM also gives the error if you try and buy a (non season) for today or tomorrow, but then switches to showing paper tickets instead [not that this is always that obvious as I played around with the machine software, before I had to leave because other people had arrived wanting to use the machine].

Videos:

TVM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn-sbcCTHJc
Gateline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVUcwBlapz0

What I don't have is the display from the 'wand' the RPI had, which showed her/me my name and the ticket loaded on from Hatfield to Finsbury Park for next week. I will of course find out next week if it works the gates okay.

Edit: Just noticed on video playback that there is a 'I have a Paper Railcard' option that popped up after I tapped my card (bottom right), so maybe I could have selected a discounted ticket. Not the usual place/way for getting railcard fares!

Edit 2: Here's the ticket I bought;



I shall have to try later to see what happens when I select that I have a paper railcard..

 

[mattdickinson]

Go online, 'buy' a ticket that's marked for smartcard download (you can buy paper tickets too, obviously) and right at the end when you're about to select where to collect the ticket, you'll be told it has to be three days. The TVM also gives the error if you try and buy a (non season) for today or tomorrow, but then switches to showing paper tickets instead [not that this is always that obvious as I played around with the machine software, before I had to leave because other people had arrived wanting to use the machine].

Videos:

TVM: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn-sbcCTHJc
Gateline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVUcwBlapz0

What I don't have is the display from the 'wand' the RPI had, which showed her/me my name and the ticket loaded on from Hatfield to Finsbury Park for next week. I will of course find out next week if it works the gates okay.

Edit: Just noticed on video playback that there is a 'I have a Paper Railcard' option that popped up after I tapped my card (bottom right), so maybe I could have selected a discounted ticket. Not the usual place/way for getting railcard fares!

Edit 2: Here's the ticket I bought;

View attachment 23202

I shall have to try later to see what happens when I select that I have a paper railcard..

The three day message only applies to Daysave tickets. The problem for GN tickets on the Key ia that there are no collection locations enabled. This will need to be remedied before launch.

 

[jon0844]

When it finally launches, would it be the case that you could pick up your ticket from the gate, rather than having to go to the TVM and add it to your smartcard?

Clearly what I want most is PAYG and that's not happening. What would be ideal otherwise is the option of having carnet tickets pre-loaded on the ticket, and 'killed' once I've tapped in. Does anyone know if that will be possible at any point in the (nearish) future?

 

[Stats]

Deleted. Repeating what's already being said.