What audit trails exist showing services loaded in booking engine?

[MKB]

I briefly mentioned what follows some while ago on the thread dealing with the 22:50 Euston to Manchester train that fails to stop at Nuneaton.

I had a slightly different problem concerning New Year's Eve travel.

On 7 October 2013, some seats became available for a sold-out show in London. I didn't think there was any chance of getting back from London on New Year's Eve, but thought I'd check the travel situation anyway.

To my delight and surprise, Virgin's booking engine showed that the 22:50 had not been cancelled on NYE and was calling at Nuneaton where I needed to get back to. At first I thought this was a little odd, but I could see London Midland services were running later to Northampton, so clearly the line wasn't closed, and I could see that normal adjustments for NYE had already been made, and much stranger things have happened before, so all seemed in order. I therefore went ahead and booked for the show.

It transpired later that not only was the Nuneaton stop not agreed on the 22:50 on any day, it was a mistake that this train was loaded for New Year's Eve at all, and, a couple of weeks later, it too disappeared from the booking engine.

At this point, I complained to Virgin who would not accept any responsibility for the consequences of their mistake, and said I was on my own. I would have to not travel, make my own way home or find a hotel.

As I was planning to buy a walk-up ticket closer to the date of travel, my case was not one of breach of contract, as no contract existed. Instead, I argued that being able to plan travel and buy walk-up tickets on the day of travel was a long-standing practice in the UK, and, for this to be workable, it required TOCs to exercise care and responsibility when formally announcing when their trains would be running, and this, Virgin had failed to do.

Passenger Focus took up my case and initially it sounded hopeful that they could recover from Virgin the money by which I was out of pocket. However, they have now dropped the case on the grounds that I cannot prove the 22:50 was ever in the booking engine for NYE, and because Virgin say they have no evidence it ever was.

It seems a little incredulous that there are apparently no audit trails in the IT systems showing changes made to this particular service on this date.

Does anyone have any knowledge please of what information is held? Do Virgin really not know what changes they have made to trains in their booking engine?

Which systems would store any audit data, and are any of them in public companies that could be subject to data access requests?

 

[bb21]

Is there any particular reason why you didn't book your travel at the same time as booking your theatre tickets? Had you booked your travel tickets on that itinerary then Virgin will have an obligation to convey you to Nuneaton at whatever time you are booked.

While I would like to wish you good luck in your endeavours, I also think you will probably need it. As you have noted yourself, there is no contract because you have no ticket, so that really is essentially the end of the matter, whether you can show that an incorrect service was loaded or not is irrelevant. (Even if an incorrect service was indeed shown, did you not have ample opportunity to book your tickets? Was the service pulled shortly after you noticed it?) There is also no liability in terms of consequential loss AFAIK so anything you get will be goodwill.

 

[ian959]

Would it be Virgin's problem anyway? I would presume that the data is uploaded and maintained by someone else (ATOC?) and merely accessed by the Virgin system? Virgin probably is correct - they do not have any evidence that it was in the database.

 

[yorkie]

If you had bought a ticket and turned up at Euston in time, they would have had to arrange a taxi.

 

[Haywain]

As you did not buy a ticket when the train was being offered, I cannot see that there Virgin (or ATOC or anyone else) had any obligation to you. In these circumstances proof of the train being offered is surely irrelevant.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree that there is little or no prospect of success in pursuing such a claim, and I say so on several grounds.
The monies you wish to claim were paid to another party, and is not the party your claim is against. The Conditions of that actual transaction are the conditions that apply.
You have no evidence that you were misinformed.
The misinformation (if it ever existed) is hardly going to be seen as 'misleading you into incurring a loss' and by your own admission, you didn't even attempt to make that journey binding which you could have done by buying a ticket. You incurred that expense at your own hazard.
It has not been demonstrated that Virgin is the party who are at fault, they will have provided information about services in good faith from their industry provider.

Anyway, even if you had bought a ticket from Virgin, for travel by train with Virgin, which in the event did not run, then you would still be limited to a claiming only for that railway ticket.

 

[MKB]

Is there any particular reason why you didn't book your travel at the same time as booking your theatre tickets? Had you booked your travel tickets on that itinerary then Virgin will have an obligation to convey you to Nuneaton at whatever time you are booked.

Only that the cheapest fare was the Off-Peak Return, so I didn't see any urgency to buy.

I'm now kicking myself for that decision of course. If I'd thought for one minute there was anything suspect about this train, I'd have bought the ticket like a shot.

I fully recognise this isn't pursuable from a legal perspective, and that has not been my approach.

Instead, I have attempted to persuade Passenger Focus to apply pressure to Virgin Trains to recompense me for a loss I have suffered as a direct result of their mistake, a goodwill gesture if you like. Passenger Focus did think this was worth pursuing, but have met an impasse with Virgin for the reasons stated previously, i.e. a refusal to accept this train was ever in the booking engine.

There is a clear public interest that Train Operating Companies don't go about willy nilly advertising last trains, pull them, and then provide no alternative.

I understand this may be a fruitless path. If I can prove that Virgin did indeed make an error, I'm pretty sure Virgin will still refuse to accept any responsibility for that error and fall back on the legal position. However, that is not currently where we stand, and I'd like to understand how Virgin can not know what services it had in its booking engine back in October.

So, if anyone has any working knowledge of the IT systems involved, I'd love to hear from you.

 

[island]

I agree with DaveNewcastle. Even if you can prove that the train was advertised and later vanished, any claim against Virgin could only be founded in contract, and you did not have a contract with them.

 

[Clip]

Ive just had a quick work out with my calender and even if I cant count, from the 7th October is in fact 13 weeks and 1 day before you were to travel and as such(as we know from the booking horizons when using such things to purchase your advance purchase tickets) that its generally 12 weeks before the timetable is confirmed due to either engineering works or special occasions - such as holiday periods. Which is why only a walk on ticket was shown and which is why it was probably pulled from the booking engine once the service pattern for NYE was confirmed.


Whilst this is not a industry set standard for booking your tickets nor for what trains will run its a pretty good benchmark when thinking about your travel - especially at holiday periods.

 

[MKB]

It's actually 12 weeks 1 day before travel, although booking in October for travel in December, it didn't feel that far off at the time! As I said in the opening post, the train was showing for a couple of weeks.

 

[The Planner]

Quite possible that NR didnt knock the schedule out until late on.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Aaaarrggh!
Now we are going in circles!

There is a clear public interest that Train Operating Companies don't go about willy nilly advertising last trains, pull them, and then provide no alternative.

Maybe, and maybe not.
But that's not your original point. Your point was, firstly, the self-interest point of wanting some money (money you'd paid to a third party for a service you didn't take from them, but from whom you are not seeking the refund).
Then you want Virgin to admit that they made a mistake (when we've already told you that it would, if there was a mistake - there is no evidence of one - that it would not have been theirs).
Now you want a widespread regulation on the Operators "going about willy nilly advertising".

I give up.

Quite possible that NR didnt knock the schedule out until late on.

Indeed. And arranged for ATOC to amend the future schedules - if indeed the incident with no evidence ever happened.

 

[34D]

So did you get to see your show?

 

[bb21]

I guess not, otherwise it would have been one hell of a trip.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Quite possible that NR didnt knock the schedule out until late on.

Also possible that Virgin's Train Planners neglected to do so either...I remember Chiltern failed to do so for Christmas Day and Boxing Day until quite late one year, so websites were quite happily advertising a full weekday service on both days.

 

[MKB]

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent of looking at the legal right I have to a claim, which I recognised in my opening post was not a useful avenue as there is no contract to have been breached.

Customer service departments of reputable companies frequently make goodwill payments where they recognise that their actions have caused a customer a loss, even if they may have no legal obligation to do so. It was this line that I thought was worth pursuing.

So, to return to my original question, are records held showing the history of trains listed in Virgin's booking engine?

And expanding further... Is this in a single national database that all TOCs share, or is it mirrored, and who hosts it? What is the process by which a TOC submits train service data?

 

[ian959]

This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent of looking at the legal right I have to a claim, which I recognised in my opening post was not a useful avenue as there is no contract to have been breached.

Customer service departments of reputable companies frequently make goodwill payments where they recognise that their actions have caused a customer a loss, even if they may have no legal obligation to do so. It was this line that I thought was worth pursuing.

So, to return to my original question, are records held showing the history of trains listed in Virgin's booking engine?

And expanding further... Is this in a single national database that all TOCs share, or is it mirrored, and who hosts it? What is the process by which a TOC submits train service data?

It is MOST unlikely that the available data trails are available to Virgin so they would not have access to the information you would be seeking. The third party provider (ATOC) MAY have such detailed information but I doubt that you have a legal claim to access such data.

The data is most likely just an electronic upload of the National Rail timetable which would contain errors. That is before you even consider the need to modify the timetable on a regular basis (possibly daily) to account for planned engineering possessions.

Since you know you have no legal claim to compensation and are in effect just 'trying it on', and Virgin and PF have said sod off effectively, why continue to try it on? The National Rail timetable has the following disclaimer:

"Every effort is made to ensure that the information contained in this Timetable is correct, however errors can still occur"

No doubt the booking systems on the individual TOCs wed sites would also have a similar disclaimer as the information is provided in good faith and they are not responsible for errors.

 

[MKB]

I'm sorry you think I'm "trying it on". I really don't think I am.

I acted in good faith based on VT's website saying that a train was running that would get me home. As a result I'm around £150 out of pocket, aside from the inconvenience of being stuck in London overnight when I needed to be at home.

If I ran a travel company and told people I'll run transport to get you home from an event, just turn up and pay on the night, people booked for the event, and then I said, I've changed my mind, I'm not providing the transport, I'm sure people would try to hold me to account. And rightly so.

"Every effort is made to ensure that the information contained in this Timetable is correct, however errors can still occur."

Of course, but not the issue. The issue is what happens when an error occurs, particularly on a last train. Is the passenger left to fend for themselves?

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'm sorry you think I'm "trying it on". I really don't think I am.

I acted in good faith based on VT's website saying that a train was running that would get me home. As a result I'm around £150 out of pocket, aside from the inconvenience of being stuck in London overnight when I needed to be at home.

If I ran a travel company and told people I'll run transport to get you home from an event, just turn up and pay on the night, people booked for the event, and then I said, I've changed my mind, I'm not providing the transport, I'm sure people would try to hold me to account. And rightly so.

"Every effort is made to ensure that the information contained in this Timetable is correct, however errors can still occur."

Of course, but not the issue. The issue is what happens when an error occurs, particularly on a last train. Is the passenger left to fend for themselves?

I don't think you are trying it on.

It is quite reasonable to assume the fair was available and that you need to pay for the concert ticket straight away as it would go otherwise. You would then have time to save up to buy the train ticket.

Some people on here live in cloud cuckoo land.

Why wouldn't you enquire as you say you are not stating you are contractually covered.

Saying nothing gets you nowhere in life.

There will be an audit trail somewhere but no-one is going to make the effort to get it to you.

 

[JB_B]

I'm a little concerned at how MKB's concerns are being treated in this thread - I really don't think he's "trying it on".)

Remember the facts..

(1) He made some plans based on the timetable (as it was available at that point). He had no reason to buy a ticket with a reservation at that point as he was going to use a walk-up fare.

(2) At some later point the timetable changed under him so his plans were no longer viable.

(3) The TOC concerned say they have nothing to answer for as they *cannot verify* his account of the published timetable at that point.

On point (1) to (2) - I've no doubt that (back in the real world) 12 weeks out might be rather early for an accurate timetable on which passengers can make forward plans - particularly at tricky times of year. On the other hand there has to be limit : if a TOC publishes timetable A for next week but then runs a different timetable B (for no exceptionally good reason) then I don't see how that could be acceptable behaviour on their part.

In any case (whilst he might have no *contractual* ground for redress) I think he has perfectly legitimate grounds for complaint.

What's more worrying is Virgin's claim that they are *unable* to verify MKB's account of the published timetable state at that point in time (with the corollary implication that MKB was mistaken about it). Anyone with access to a suitable set of downloads form the ATOC data feed should be able to say what was in the publicly available subset of timetable at that point. Why would Virgin not have access to that?

 

[bb21]

I think claiming that the OP is "trying it on" is a little harsh. If it were any of us who lost £150 through no fault of ourselves, we would all be a little aggrieved.

I just don't think it is worth spending any more effort on this, seeing that Passenger Focus had already intervened and Virgin have steadfastly refused to budge. (Yes, I understand that it may not have been for the same reason that was quoted. Had a screenshot been taken at the time of the original enquiry it may have turned out differently.)

The NRCoC is very clear regarding consequential loss as set out in Condition 42(c). Of course it may not apply since there is no contract, but the same principles apply I would hazard a guess. Tackling this from a customer service point of view may sometimes work, but given that Virgin had already refused to entertain the idea of compensation for the theatre tickets, I just don't see how they will now turn around and agree to pay out, whoever's fault it was loading the incorrect train times into the database.

Of course only the OP can decide whether he wishes to pursue this further, and whether the added time and attention afforded to this matter would be worth it all at the end, but I can't help but feel that it is not a winnable battle. I would be happy to be proved wrong.

 

[MKB]

You're right of course bb21, this is very definitely a candidate for not worth pursuing. The thing that made me think I'd give it one last try was that Passenger Focus took it very seriously for a couple of months, even going as far as getting copies of receipts from me as late as mid-January. They seemed to try quite hard with Virgin on my behalf, and the cited reason for stopping -- VT no longer being sure they ever advertised the train -- seemed like something that might be counterable with evidence.

Of course, even if I could find such evidence, Virgin could still say no, but I thought it was perhaps worth a try. As someone who designs IT systems and has worked on many inter-company interfaces, I thought (wrongly?) that getting historical information would be fairly easy!

When posting here, I also had not ruled out the hope that there might be something useful in Virgin's contract with the DfT/NR or the minutiae of Rail Settlement Plan legislation that governed their obligations when cancelling a previously advertised train, and that a Board expert might know. Based on feedback so far, this was indeed a forlorn hope!

 

[bb21]

I think this may be a good case for contacting your MP about, if you would like to pursue the matter further. As you said earlier, there may be a public interest argument to be made, in which case I would imagine that your MP may well be interested.

 

[Poggs]

Of course, even if I could find such evidence, Virgin could still say no, but I thought it was perhaps worth a try. As someone who designs IT systems and has worked on many inter-company interfaces, I thought (wrongly?) that getting historical information would be fairly easy!

I've had a look back through some archived data:

* There was a cancellation (CAN) schedule in for Y87256 (1H78) on 31st December 2013, as the schedule was auto-called through TRUST and then cancelled with reason code 'PD'
* This schedule first appeared as a WTT schedule on 3rd October, valid from 31st December 2013 to 3rd January 2014, valid Tuesday, Thursday and Friday - so 31st December, 2nd January and 3rd January
* On 18th October, a cancellation schedule was put in for 24th December - 31st December, valid Tuesday and Wednesday, therefore 24th and 25th December, and 31st December and 1st January
* On 25th October, the WTT schedule was deleted and a new cancellation schedule put in place for 31st December and 1st January
* On 27th October, this cancellation schedule was amended to be for 31st December only

Taking your specific case, on 7th October, there was a WTT schedule for this train covering 31st December, 2nd and 3rd January which you presumably saw in Virgin's Journey Planner. This schedule was then cancelled on 18th October, so there was a window from 3rd - 18th October where the train was scheduled to run.

In my opinion, the schedule was in the VT Journey Planner at the time you booked - I'm happy to write up my findings if it'll help you.

 

[Haywain]

In my opinion, the schedule was in the VT Journey Planner at the time you booked - I'm happy to write up my findings if it'll help you.

Read the first post in the thread again - the OP didn't book a ticket at the time the service was showing.

 

[Kingsbury Jn.]

Read the first post in the thread again - the OP didn't book a ticket at the time the service was showing.

I think that he is referring to the theatre tickets.

 

[34D]

I've had a look back through some archived data:

* There was a cancellation (CAN) schedule in for Y87256 (1H78) on 31st December 2013, as the schedule was auto-called through TRUST and then cancelled with reason code 'PD'
* This schedule first appeared as a WTT schedule on 3rd October, valid from 31st December 2013 to 3rd January 2014, valid Tuesday, Thursday and Friday - so 31st December, 2nd January and 3rd January
* On 18th October, a cancellation schedule was put in for 24th December - 31st December, valid Tuesday and Wednesday, therefore 24th and 25th December, and 31st December and 1st January
* On 25th October, the WTT schedule was deleted and a new cancellation schedule put in place for 31st December and 1st January
* On 27th October, this cancellation schedule was amended to be for 31st December only

Taking your specific case, on 7th October, there was a WTT schedule for this train covering 31st December, 2nd and 3rd January which you presumably saw in Virgin's Journey Planner. This schedule was then cancelled on 18th October, so there was a window from 3rd - 18th October where the train was scheduled to run.

In my opinion, the schedule was in the VT Journey Planner at the time you booked - I'm happy to write up my findings if it'll help you.

Thanks Poggs.

Should this info be easily accessible by Virgin, if they bother to look?

 

[Poggs]

Thanks Poggs.

Should this info be easily accessible by Virgin, if they bother to look?

No, it probably won't be - I had to look through a bunch of CIF files by hand to find this out, as it's the closest thing I can find to an audit trail.

Network Rail /might/ respond to an FoI request for the history of that specific schedule UID in ITPS, or another industry body may have an archive of CIF files going back to October.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that he is referring to the theatre tickets.

I've re-read the original post:

"As I was planning to buy a walk-up ticket closer to the date of travel, my case was not one of breach of contract, as no contract existed"

This is an important point - the timetable is liable to change more than 12 weeks in the future, however also important is whether or not the cancellation for this train went in closer than 12 weeks.

I am not an expert in the Informed Traveller process and whether 12 weeks is a drop-dead date, or whether errors are excluded from this, or if public holidays/New Years Eve etc. are excluded.

 

[MKB]

Thanks very much for your input Poggs. Since my last posting, I'd managed to get relevant records from the datasets, so you are confirming what I'd learned.

 

[34D]

Thanks very much for your input Poggs. Since my last posting, I'd managed to get relevant records from the datasets, so you are confirming what I'd learned.

Where are you at with your complaint?