What ECML timetable improvements would you like to see?

[Neptune]

Back in InterCity days the 0700 Lds- Kings Cross Yorkshire Pullman used to be timetabled 1h59.

It still is but starts back from Bradford FS at 0630.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why not skip Wakefield too? It’s not that big a place, 1tph to London should be sufficient.

If you were going to skip Wakefield entirely (rather than impose pick-up/set-down restrictions), would it be worth running via Hambleton, particularly once the Trans-Pennine upgrade is complete? I know it's a longer route, but the linespeed over Wakefield's wiggly viaduct isn't particularly fast. Not much time to be gained by skipping Wakefield but still running that way, I'd have thought.

 

[Ken H]

When was this?

I only have a pdf of the 78-79 BRTT and the pick up/set down seems to have gone. I think we need to go back to the Deltic era. Or maybe they removed the Wakefield Stop from 'The Leeds Executive'
But it was standard operating procedure on Manchester- London trains. this snip from table 65 from 78 -79

 

[Ken H]

If you were going to skip Wakefield entirely (rather than impose pick-up/set-down restrictions), would it be worth running via Hambleton, particularly once the Trans-Pennine upgrade is complete? I know it's a longer route, but the linespeed over Wakefield's wiggly viaduct isn't particularly fast. Not much time to be gained by skipping Wakefield but still running that way, I'd have thought.

Wasnt the plan to put wires up Leeds - Doncaster via hambleton and run alternate trains half hourly to give an hourly Wakefield service and an hourly service vis Hambleton?

 

[Monkeyhead]

It makes a difference to me - I live in NE Leeds, but choose to travel from York when heading to KX with work. Not only is parking in Leeds far to much like torture these days, the train (especially home when it's none stop to York) saves me about 20 mins, with maybe a 15 min saving on the way out, even with the longer drive between home and York.

 

[jfowkes]

In the absence of a definitive plan for HS2 beyond Birmingham, it sounds like the ECML needs some serious 4-tracking north of Newcastle if all these fasts and local services are going to co-exist in a way that doesn't completely wreck things the moment a sheep farts next to the line.

 

[A S Leib]

In the absence of a definitive plan for HS2 beyond Birmingham, it sounds like the ECML needs some serious 4-tracking north of Newcastle if all these fasts and local services are going to co-exist in a way that doesn't completely wreck things the moment a sheep farts next to the line.

Weren't the Liverpool–Northumberland services using diesel power north of Newcastle for some stretches during their ~four months in existence due to weak power supply?

 

[sjm77]

Not in the short term, from the Modern Railways Dec/Jan articles the limit is that there's only six long distance passenger paths per hour York/Newcastle so LNER going to 3tph means TPE losses out, in the hours when XC only run one service TPE could perhaps run instead but that would give an ad-hoc service pattern.

It would work if the services strictly alternated each hour. The one hour journey from York to Newcastle would mean that turnaround times at both would be the same, and with both TPEx and XC using 125 mph stock an hourly path with fixed stops each hour should work. It would not be the most difficult planning challenge on the railways.

 

[xotGD]

The 18:00 off King's Cross reaches Darlo in 2h20m. The 18:03 'Airedale Executive' reaches Leeds in 2h18m. Inconveniently not being a valid connection onto the 18:26 Airedale service.

 

[Blindtraveler]

There are still some services using diesel under wires north of Newcastle, there's a video on YouTube of a tpx service calling at Reston or East Linton can't remember which uploaded fairly recently with the diesels powering. As far as these stations losing services because of decisions taken regarding things further South, it would just give the current anti English anti-west minister Scottish government something else to complain about and despite their claims of extreme poverty and lack of resources they were doubtless a lot of Scott Rail unit and crew to plug the gaps

 

[yorkie]

I only have a pdf of the 78-79 BRTT and the pick up/set down seems to have gone. I think we need to go back to the Deltic era. Or maybe they removed the Wakefield Stop from 'The Leeds Executive'
But it was standard operating procedure on Manchester- London trains. this snip from table 65 from 78 -79

View attachment 149945

I was asking about Wakefield, not Stockport! The two are not comparable for many reasons.

 

[YorksLad12]

Although this could change with the eventual implementation of 1tph between Lincoln and Doncaster, meaning that passengers from Lincoln would be more inclined to change at Doncaster, rather than Newark, especially given the greater choice of trains stopping at Doncaster.

I thought there already was, on EMR? When I travel Leeds-Lincoln I prefer changing at Doncaster than taking the through train - it's quicker, though you do have to walk quickly from P1 to P5...

Wasnt the plan to put wires up Leeds - Doncaster via hambleton and run alternate trains half hourly to give an hourly Wakefield service and an hourly service vis Hambleton?

The "electric horseshoe" that GNER proposed as part of their rebid. There was a plan in the May 2022 timetable proposal to run one train every two hours via Hambleton to Leeds and on to Harrogate.

 

[Peter A]

Not in the short term, from the Modern Railways Dec/Jan articles the limit is that there's only six long distance passenger paths per hour York/Newcastle so LNER going to 3tph means TPE losses out, in the hours when XC only run one service TPE could perhaps run instead but that would give an ad-hoc service pattern.

Transport for the North have concerns about the reduction in connectivity across the North but have now agreed to the proposed Winter 24 timetable. The January article mentions TfN have received commitments to infrastructure improvements north of York to allow a seventh passenger path per hour which TPE could then use to reinstate 2tph Newcastle/Leeds/Manchester. There's no timescales on that.

In their "Our Plan for the Future" document TPE states "By Dec-24 we will have cleared our driver training backlog and be in a position to increase North Route services to 4 trains per hour between Manchester and Leeds.". Hopefully that will actually be 4tph Manchester - Leeds/York.

At the time of the proposed 2022 timetable change there were 4 tph Manchester to York on TPE but that was reduced to three with the Scarborough and Newcastle services merged. In an ideal world eventually there would be:
-Liverpool to Newcastle
-Manchester Airport to Saltburn
-Liverpool to Hull
-Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough
-Manchester Victoria to Newcastle
I would imagine the first priority would be restoring Liverpool to Hull and the combined Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough/Newcastle service. Perhaps eventually being split into separate Manchester Piccadilly to Scarborough and Manchester Victoria to York - the Newcastle extension could continue every 2 hours if the path were to be shared with the Newcastle-Reading XC service as has been rumoured.

Edit: the proposed May 2022 LNER timetable would have been Darlington being served by the Newcastle terminator and 1 tph to Edinburgh, Durham just by the Newcastle terminator, and nothing for Northallerton except Middlesbrough services. Pre-Covid the plan was for only every other Newcastle terminator to serve Durham and for King's Cross –Middlesbrough to be every two hours.

The proposed May 2022 LNER timetable was going to have Darlington and Durham served by the Newcastle terminator with one of the two served by the Edinburgh express each hour, in effect a 1.5 tph frequency at each. Northallerton would be served by the Newcastle terminator every 2 hours or so plus the Middlesbrough service. Crosscountry were also to serve Northallerton largely in place of TPE.

 

[TheBigD]

The "electric horseshoe" that GNER proposed as part of their rebid. There was a plan in the May 2022 timetable proposal to run one train every two hours via Hambleton to Leeds and on to Harrogate.

May 2022 proposed timetable had all services via Wakefield with nothing via Hambleton.

There was an earlier plan for 2 hourly via Hambleton and on to Harrogate. There was a long thread on here from 2019...

Future ECML & LNER Services

In the LNER Azuma thread this document was posted. It lists the service asperations (now) LNER planned for various timetables once the new Azumas are up and running. Although the timescales will have slipped, the base LNER service for May 2019 would have seen the following... Hourly Kings...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Tetchytyke]

despite their claims of extreme poverty and lack of resources they were doubtless a lot of Scott Rail unit and crew to plug the gaps

There isn’t. TPE are trying to get rid of the orphan Newcastle-Edinburgh service but they can’t because nobody else has the capacity.

Pre-Covid the plan was for only every other Newcastle terminator to serve Durham and for King's Cross –Middlesbrough to be every two hours

Durham needs at least one London train per hour, two at busy periods. Likewise it needs at least one an hope north to Edinburgh.

The university generates a lot of traffic, far beyond what a city of that size would typically generate.

 

[A S Leib]

Crosscountry were also to serve Northallerton largely in place of TPE.

For Northallerton–Newcastle; presumably Saltburn services wouldn't have run fast from York or Thirsk to Yarm?

The university generates a lot of traffic, far beyond what a city of that size would typically generate.

Durham–Newcastle has three times more passengers than Durham–King's Cross, whilst for Darlington they're almost even (King's Cross slightly ahead); I wonder how much of that demand's down to students.

 

[Halish Railway]

I thought there already was, on EMR? When I travel Leeds-Lincoln I prefer changing at Doncaster than taking the through train - it's quicker, though you do have to walk quickly from P1 to P5...

It's a sporadic five trains a day, generally leaving at the same time a Leeds to London service stops at Doncaster.

 

[ShadowKnight]

Although this could change with the eventual implementation of 1tph between Lincoln and Doncaster, meaning that passengers from Lincoln would be more inclined to change at Doncaster, rather than Newark, especially given the greater choice of trains stopping at Doncaster.

It's not just Lincoln that Newark serves for people travelling north, but also Nottingham and the broader north Leicestershire/south Nottinghamshire region

 

[Peter A]

There isn’t. TPE are trying to get rid of the orphan Newcastle-Edinburgh service but they can’t because nobody else has the capacity.


Durham needs at least one London train per hour, two at busy periods. Likewise it needs at least one an hope north to Edinburgh.

The university generates a lot of traffic, far beyond what a city of that size would typically generate.

The original proposal was an 1.5 tph service to London comprising the hourly Newcastle stopper and Edinburgh express every two hours, and a 1.5 tph train service to Edinburgh comprising the hourly crosscountry service and the Edinburgh express every two hours - exactly the same for Darlington with alternate calls on the Edinburgh express each hour.

For Northallerton–Newcastle; presumably Saltburn services wouldn't have run fast from York or Thirsk to Yarm?

Yes the Saltburn services were scheduled to call at Northallerton on the most part, but pathing issues meant the frequency southbound was every 2 hours rather than hourly which wasn't particularly great. Not sure if that issue will be able to be resolved now!

 

[WAB]

There are still some services using diesel under wires north of Newcastle, there's a video on YouTube of a tpx service calling at Reston or East Linton can't remember which uploaded fairly recently with the diesels powering. As far as these stations losing services because of decisions taken regarding things further South, it would just give the current anti English anti-west minister Scottish government something else to complain about and despite their claims of extreme poverty and lack of resources they were doubtless a lot of Scott Rail unit and crew to plug the gaps

How are the passenger numbers doing at Reston and East Linton? Given ScotGov did not fund the necessary alterations to allow local services from Dunbar to continue south, it should really be on them to make serving these stations a good commercial prospect through subsidy, particularly if serving these stations limits capacity enhancements for services to busier stations.

 

[A S Leib]

How are the passenger numbers doing at Reston and East Linton? Given ScotGov did not fund the necessary alterations to allow local services from Dunbar to continue south, it should really be on them to make serving these stations a good commercial prospect through subsidy, particularly if serving these stations limits capacity enhancements for services to busier stations.

ORR station usage estimates are April-March, and Reston opened in May. It had 13,190 passengers in 2022/3, less than a third of Shawfair's (the least used station on the Borders line).

 

[Acfb]

How are the passenger numbers doing at Reston and East Linton? Given ScotGov did not fund the necessary alterations to allow local services from Dunbar to continue south, it should really be on them to make serving these stations a good commercial prospect through subsidy, particularly if serving these stations limits capacity enhancements for services to busier stations.

I have high hopes for East Linton in the longer term. Despite the irregular service I feel it should get at least 3/4 times the usage of Reston (13,090) as a worst case scenario and ideally reach Kintore's numbers as Drem has already over 100K a year where it could abstract plenty of passengers from. When I have been there on the week, arriving about 12.40, around 14.30 and on a Saturday there have been people boarding and alighting the Scotrail and TPE services in both directions. A lot of people got off the 16.58 ex Edinburgh on a Saturday in December in particular.

There was also 15 cars in the car park when I was there nearly two weeks ago which I thought was pretty decent considering most people walk to the station.

I don't have an issue with LNER being prioritised on the ECML which is why I don't expect an improved service in rhe short/medium term but I'm more concerned XC and TPE usage of the ECML is not optimal.

 

[387masterrace]

Durham–Newcastle has three times more passengers than Durham–King's Cross, whilst for Darlington they're almost even (King's Cross slightly ahead); I wonder how much of that demand's down to students.

I don't really think it's directly down to students considering most Durham students are from London or the South East. There are a lot of uni employees who commute though, I suppose a growing number of students are commuting in from Newcastle as well now because accommodation costs in Durham have gone completely out of control in the past few years.

Durham also gets big passenger numbers for a small city because the service is (relatively) good though so it encourages people to use the train in the first place.

 

[Manutd1999]

The proposed ECML recast is set to establish an hourly fast path for the Edinburgh service, non-stop York to Kings Cross. However, the first southbound service won't arrive in London until ~09:30, so the path will presumably go unused before then.

I wonder if there is an opportunity to use this gap to run 1-2 early morning expresses from Leeds? I.e. depart at around 6:30, arriving 1 hour before the first Edinburgh service? Corresponding northbound services could run in the evening (last Edinburgh departure is at ~19:00).

 

[30907]

I wonder if there is an opportunity to use this gap to run 1-2 early morning expresses from Leeds? I.e. depart at around 6:30, arriving 1 hour before the first Edinburgh service? Corresponding northbound services could run in the evening (last Edinburgh departure is at ~19:00).

There's already an 0700 up express - I haven't used it for years, but I don't recall it being super busy (when other trains were). 2000 doesn't strike me as a peak time on the return (some of us remember when the Pullmans/Executives were 1555 Leeds and 1605 Bradford!).

The problem of super-expresses in the evening is this: there's enough demand for business/commuter travel in the morning to justify one but in the evening it's much more spread out. The problem isn't unique to the UK.

 

[WAB]

I don't have an issue with LNER being prioritised on the ECML which is why I don't expect an improved service in rhe short/medium term but I'm more concerned XC and TPE usage of the ECML is not optimal.

In what way?




I think it'd be great for the intermediate stations to get a decent 2tph service (1tph at the newer stations) but that would likely come at the expense of further service enhancements and would likely involve silly things like Reston not getting direct trains to Berwick.

 

[A S Leib]

Didn't Virgin run an evening Euston to Glasgow calling at Preston only service at one point?

 

[30907]

Didn't Virgin run an evening Euston to Glasgow calling at Preston only service at one point?

Yes, to achieve the headline time. It was half empty generally, which is why it was an early casualty along with the southbound equivalents.

 

[Ken H]

I was asking about Wakefield, not Stockport! The two are not comparable for many reasons.

Apologies. I could not find an example for Wakey in the only pdf I have of a GBTT.
Used to have loads of GBTT's. I am so angry i binned them.

 

[JKF]

Wasnt the plan to put wires up Leeds - Doncaster via hambleton and run alternate trains half hourly to give an hourly Wakefield service and an hourly service vis Hambleton?

Could such a service via Hambleton call at the new Thorpe Park station? There could be an opportunity to set that up as a parkway type affair for Leeds given it’s next to the motorway and ring road. I suspect it’s not going to be built to that standard however (platform length etc.)