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What Happened to all the Slam door trains?

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When i used to Live down south i had to use South west trains and there slam door trains and just wanted to know do they still get used and if not where did they all go?

would they be taken apart all sold to someone outside the UK?
 
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BestWestern

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They're all dead I'm afraid :(

The slam door fleets were phased out quite a few years back now, and replaced with things like Electrostar (class 375/377 on Southern) and Desiro (class 444/450 on SWT) units. The last two left in use were on the Lymington Pier branch, and were shortened to three cars and fitted with electronic central door locking.

A few have been preserved, but most of them became scrap metal long ago. Shame :|
 

WatcherZero

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They were phased out (over a lengthy 15 years) by new units finally ending service almost a decade ago because they were considered to be too flimsy and dangerous in a crash.
 

jopsuk

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aye- it wasn't the doors that were problematic as such, it really was the crash worthiness. There were several very bad accidents down the years where those slammers just crumpled.

Plus, by the time they were replaced, they were 35-50 years old. The north had had most of its old slam door DMUs and mark 1 hauled stock replaced by sprinters and pacers in the 80s.
 

WatcherZero

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Though in the Pacer/Sprinter case using a bus style interior to save money was the motivation :)


There were other issues with the slammers, safety of use (many people would get off at stations while the train was still moving) and some women didnt feel safe in the private compartments.
 

yorksrob

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There were mk 2 slammers on the eastern region which would have been better crashworthy wise. I think the 'danger' of the doors was greatly exagerated, and as for compartments, no units were all-compartment since the first 10 (or so) subs were withdrawn in the 70s, so no one was forced to sit in one.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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There are still a couple of "bubble car" class 121 DMU slammers around.
One usually works the Cardiff Queen St-Cardiff Bay shuttle for ATW, the other works the Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttle for Chiltern.
There are restrictions on where they can work.
If it's the "crump" of the old SR doors slamming that you miss, every new Desiro in the country does a pretty good job of emulating the noise...
 

DarloRich

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they are, mostly, all razor blades now.

Although you can still, of course, travel on MKIII both HST and hauled stock, with many operators. There are still a few MKII coaches in everyday operation
 

Stats

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They're all dead I'm afraid :(
Why the sad face. Dangerous things.

I'll never forget the night when we had stopped at Virginia Water and a young man went to get off the train. But as he wasn't altogether with it he opened the door on the wrong side of the train and was making his move to leave the train putting his head through the open door into the path of an oncoming train who blew his whistle. That woke the guy up who quickly slammed the door shut. If it had happened 5 seconds later and the train would have been without a door and the man would have been without a head.
 

JoeGJ1984

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I think there's a 1st gen Hastings DEMU which does railtours - it has CDL installed so incidents like that described by Stats can't occur.
 

Bungle73

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Why the sad face. Dangerous things.

I'll never forget the night when we had stopped at Virginia Water and a young man went to get off the train. But as he wasn't altogether with it he opened the door on the wrong side of the train and was making his move to leave the train putting his head through the open door into the path of an oncoming train who blew his whistle. That woke the guy up who quickly slammed the door shut. If it had happened 5 seconds later and the train would have been without a door and the man would have been without a head.

I'm not sure how someone doing something stupid makes them "dangerous"?
 

junglejames

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I'm not sure how someone doing something stupid makes them "dangerous"?

It doesnt. The doors themselves were not dangerous. It was the people using them. I myself never opened the doors until we came to a complete stop, and always knew what i was doing.
You cant blame a train for passengers' stupidity.

What if i managed to overpower a guard and open an automatic door on the wrong side. Does that make the train dangerous? No, it makes me stupid.
 

ert47

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Bungle73:1208473 said:
I'm not sure how someone doing something stupid makes them "dangerous"?

Try having someone open the door early coming into the station and someone else on the platform recieving a face full of door.

Miss use of an object can make it dangerous.


-----------------

Haven't a couple of old slammers been converted to departmental units?
 

John55

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I'm not sure how someone doing something stupid makes them "dangerous"?

As a regular user of EPBs out of Charing Cross, Cannon St and Victoria for 15 years the number of people who made the mistake of going to the wrong side of the train to get off was very noticeable. The majority realised their mistake before trying to open the door but there was clearly something about the layout of the EPBs ( and SUBs etc) and perhaps the windows being so small which did lead people to loose their bearings.

When there is a factor like this at work there is a much greater possibility of people making a mistake and coming to harm with a single mistake. So while I would not say the trains were dangerous I think there was a much higher risk factor for accidents. There is also the problem of people opening the doors while the train is moving quite fast and falling out or hitting people on the platform.

I can still remember my shock at walking along the platform at London Waterloo in the 70s and seeing 4-SUBs in all their "glory" for the first time. And the even bigger shock of realising that these mobile museum pieces were newer than the "modern" LMS built EMUs I was used to!
 

sbt

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To my mind something is 'dangerous' if normal behaviour from a normal group of people exposed to the risk has a reasonable chance of leading to an accident.

Two examples:

Coiled Kettle Leads were introduced due to a significant number of those exposed to the risk of tipping boiling water down themselves being in the habit of grabbing things that trail down from the worktop above them. Not all children were exposed but a significant number of parents weren't 'on the ball' 100% of the time so a non-trivial number of children were scalded, like a chap I knew in college who was nearly killed at the age of four and had massive scaring down most of his right side.

In theory drivers and pedestrians should be aware enough that zebra and other types of crossing are superfluous.

Remember that the 'not dangerous if everyone is on the ball and aware' was used by the early railway companies to argue against signalling. In their book it was always the drivers fault if a collision occurred. After that it was always the signallers fault - no matter if they were working 7 days of 12 hour shifts - if they had just been more aware then collisions would never occur, there is no need to introduce interlocking and limited hours of work. Its a shame about those who are incidental casualties...

Fast forward to Slam Doors. As a regular commuter who was fairly aware of the risks the biggest risk to me was a door in the face from the person getting off in front of me, who would randomly slam the door shut behind them as we were getting off. I got a couple of big thumps, one that left bruising, as a result. I could have hung back, of course, but there were people behind me and what would it have done to station dwell times?

On the 'wrong side opening' issue. Yes, you might argue that people should be more aware and only travel when well rested, sleeping under their desks if they have had a long day at work and therefore aren't in a fit state to operate dangerous machinery, but people will insist on getting home to family and friends... Its a shame about the people who have to clear up and the driver who has just had a door through the front of his cab...

Similarly, surely there was no need to add the supplementary locks to the HST sets? It wasn't dangerous if people didn't lean on the doors, they should have known not to board a train at crush capacity or travel in the vestibule, just 'asking for it'...

And of course there was never any good reason to add yellow lines to platforms, a disproportionate expense, people should know instinctively what is a safe distance. Its a shocking waste of money, just like barriers at Level Crossings.

Bottom line - safety has to live in the real world where people make mistakes and there are innocent victims of mistakes made by others.
 

yorksrob

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Well, one tries to be diplomatic, but I fear, there is some sillyness in this thread.

Firstly, talking about slam doors, on Mk 1's (and Mk 2's like the 308's) these doors were actually quite thin. Even now, if you're near enough to the edge when a train is coming in to be hit by a theoretical slam door, you're dangerously close to the edge. That's why even though the slam doors have gone, the yellow line on the platform is still there.

Also, as to the argument "It's not safe if someone who isn't fully compus mentis could come a-cropper", where exactly do you stop ? I could take you to any main road where you will find lorries and busses speeding along, by which, if you are a bit dozy and not looking the right way, you could easily get yourself injured or killed. Do you think we should ban buses and lorries ? There are lots of dangerous things in the world that can kill you. Slam doors on trains are pretty innocuous compared to most of these.

The fact is, thousands upon thousands of people (myself included) used these trains day upon day without incident.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
As a regular user of EPBs out of Charing Cross, Cannon St and Victoria for 15 years the number of people who made the mistake of going to the wrong side of the train to get off was very noticeable. The majority realised their mistake before trying to open the door but there was clearly something about the layout of the EPBs ( and SUBs etc) and perhaps the windows being so small which did lead people to loose their bearings.

The bullied designed EPB's at least had the toplight which allowed standing passengers to see where they were. I doubt it was the layout of the train that made people loose their barings.
 
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Essexman

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On Wednesday I travelled on Chiltern's Mark 3 coaches that have had automatic doors fitted at no little cost to replace centrally locked slam doors.

Today I went to Norwich on Mark 3 coaches with centrally locked slam doors.

Can anyone tell me why Chiltern have to fit automatic doors (or is it the company's choice?) while GA, FGW, EMT etc, keep slam doors.
 

Bushy

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But accidents did happen as a result of passengers being able to open the door while the train was moving -
  • to get off the train half a second earlier,
  • to board a departing train,
  • because they didn't realise the platform was offside, or
  • that the platform was short
The risk is reduced by having controlled door operation, which must therefore be imposed to ensure that risk is ALARP. The risk was one of the reasons for banning slam door stock. Similarly 12 car trains are not permitted to use 8 car platforms unless they are fitted with SDO.

Regards

Bushy
 

Peter Mugridge

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On Wednesday I travelled on Chiltern's Mark 3 coaches that have had automatic doors fitted at no little cost to replace centrally locked slam doors.

Today I went to Norwich on Mark 3 coaches with centrally locked slam doors.

Can anyone tell me why Chiltern have to fit automatic doors (or is it the company's choice?) while GA, FGW, EMT etc, keep slam doors.

It's because Chiltern intend to keep those rakes long term so they are making them compliant with the rules that would need to apply from 2020 about accessibility.
 

yorksrob

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Well, things move on, and the slammers would have gone eventually anyway. However, (for example, since you mention it)even now, there are occasions where people have to sit in overly cramped conditions, or passengers have to put up with inadequate services at their station specifically due to SDO rules - rules which, incidentally aren't deemed important enough to apply where there are "grandfather rights". Is this risk avoidence worth the inconvenience it causes ?

Let's get rid of all risk, and we can live in our coccoons.
 
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ainsworth74

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I can see the arguments on both sides for slam doors but personally I have to say that, whilst the risk of an incident is admittedly small, it strikes me that it is still an unnecessary risk and one that should have been eliminated as soon as possible. Especially when considering the negative impact on the strength of a carriage when so much of it is taken up with doors rather than solid walls (thinking about the commuter slammers) and the generally less impressive crashworthyness of Mk1 stock even compared with Mk2s let alone more modern stock.
 

Wath Yard

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Slammers were about as dangerous as cars that don't automatically lock their doors when they start moving. If someone was stupid enough to jump off when the train was moving and there wasn't a platform I'm surprised they had the intelligence to find the railway station in the first place.

The slammers were replaced because they were life expired and due to their crashworthiness.
 

trainophile

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There are still a couple of "bubble car" class 121 DMU slammers around.
One usually works the Cardiff Queen St-Cardiff Bay shuttle for ATW, the other works the Aylesbury-Princes Risborough shuttle for Chiltern.
There are restrictions on where they can work.
If it's the "crump" of the old SR doors slamming that you miss, every new Desiro in the country does a pretty good job of emulating the noise...

I think I was on that one not so long ago. It was in service as an overspill following some sporting event in Cardiff (I think). I got on it at Crewe and was in train heaven. It was almost empty southbound, for a while I had a whole carriage to myself. No doubt it was a different matter on its return.

The guard asked anyone alighting at Ludlow to move to the front two coaches as the platform wasn't long enough!

Wonderful experience. I keep hoping it will turn up again one day.
 

ainsworth74

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I think I was on that one not so long ago. It was in service as an overspill following some sporting event in Cardiff (I think). I got on it at Crewe and was in train heaven.

The guard asked anyone alighting at Ludlow to move to the front two coaches as the platform wasn't long enough!

Seeing as the ATW 121 is a single car unit that is not permitted to operate anywhere in passenger service on the mainline other than the Cardiff Bay shuttles I doubt that was what you were on ;)
 

Starmill

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It doesnt. The doors themselves were not dangerous. It was the people using them. I myself never opened the doors until we came to a complete stop, and always knew what i was doing.
You cant blame a train for passengers' stupidity.

What if i managed to overpower a guard and open an automatic door on the wrong side. Does that make the train dangerous? No, it makes me stupid.

I was thinking this just the other day!!! Does a guard need anything other than a T Key to open the panel and release the doors? I've seen them do it so many times and it doesn't seem that way. They use those keys on heritage/private railways, do they not? Are they controlled items? Surely someone with a mind to could just open the doors if they took one with them! Or am I being dense?

Sorry if I am, its been a long day ;)
 

RichmondCommu

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I think it’s absolutely ridiculous that some rail enthusiasts are determined to drag our rail network back into the dark ages. Not only were the slammers structurally unsafe but the compartments made travel at night a rapists / muggers paradise. Not only that but the doors were and are very inconvenient.

I will happily accept such things on a preserved railway but on the national network they have quite rightly been consigned to history. The railway has a duty of care towards its customers, something which some posters have conveniently ignored.
 
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