What if I dont have the money (Summons now received)

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bebu

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hello guys,
I bought a train ticket online for £30 from london to doncaster on www.eastcoast.co.uk for the 13.37pm, got to the station on time and picked up my ticket. But somehow missed it and got on the 13.51pm

I was given a fine of £120 which I sent a letter of appeal to the RPSS https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk which was rejected and I was asked to pay within 14days of dated.

I explained that I just finished my msc, job hunting and going through a divorce and cant afford the 14days, as I have a little girl, whom am supporting.

The last time, I got such a fine, I had to pawn my laptop to pay off, cost me £65 to retreive my laptop after 28 days.

What if I dont have the money ???

I know If I leave it and default I would incurr more charges and would destroy my credit ratings, so in my fustration am seeking advise on how to go about this

many thanks

B
 
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wintonian

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I don't normaly reply to such threads as my knowlege in this area is limited, however only a court of law can impose a 'fine'

What you were given sounds like an Unpaid Fees Notice(UFN)

Whilst you were not issued with a penalty fare, you have been issued with an unpaid fare notice when you travelled because you were unable to produce a valid ticket for inspection when requested. This has nothing to do with any intention you may have had and is not a fine. It is merely a notice to pay the amount due for the journey that you actually made when you could not present a valid ticket in accordance with The Regulation of Railways Act 1889 para 5.1. (see document library for details) The NRCOC explains the validities of tickets and the passenger's rights with regard to refunds on any unused or invalid tickets.
My embolding.

However I'll leave this for others to advise.
 

bignosemac

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Sorry, but to be blunt, 'not having the money' is irrelevant. As is all the other info about divorce, job hunting, supporting a child.... When it comes to dealing with what would appear to be a straightforward case of travelling with an invalid ticket, then tugging on the heart strings won't wash. Neither here on this forum or in dealings with the train company or its collection agency.

Also worrying is your line stating "The last time, I got such a fine...."

It's also of concern that you got to the station in time to collect your ticket but didn't have time to get on your booked train. That would appear, on the face of it, to be a case of you leaving insufficient time to board your booked train. That would be no-ones fault but your own.

Seek legal advice forthwith would be my advice. Some help may come from this forum, but based on your opening post I see little sympathy coming from here.

More information about the train caught, the company involved and what exactly was issued to you along with clarification of the subsequent correspondence you've had, may help those on this forum offer good, accurate advice. Be warned though. It may not be what you want to hear.
 
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island

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I can't find trains at either of those times from London to Doncaster. Can the OP please confirm the exact train times, the Train Operating Company involved, and the nature of the document received (probably an unpaid fares notice)?
 

LexyBoy

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A polite letter explaining your situation -and that it was an error so you weren't expecting to pay for this fare - with an offer to pay in installments (with as much as you can afford upfront) might be accepted, I understand such agreements have been made before. Perhaps others on here could help draft a letter.
 

BrianTheLion

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Forgive me if im wrong but is an anytime single from London to Doncaster not £105?

If that is indeed the case why did the OP receive a "fine" of £120?

I always thought in these situations you were charged the anytime single rate?
 

4SRKT

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Sorry, but to be blunt, 'not having the money' is irrelevant. As is all the other info about divorce, job hunting, supporting a child.... When it comes to dealing with what would appear to be a straightforward case of travelling with an invalid ticket, then tugging on the heart strings won't wash. Neither here on this forum or in dealings with the train company or its collection agency.

Also worrying is your line stating "The last time, I got such a fine...."

It's also of concern that you got to the station in time to collect your ticket but didn't have time to get on your booked train. That would appear, on the face of it, to be a case of you leaving insufficient time to board your booked train. That would be no-ones fault but your own.

Seek legal advice forthwith would be my advice. Some help may come from this forum, but based on your opening post I see little sympathy coming from here.

More information about the train caught, the company involved and what exactly was issued to you along with clarification of the subsequent correspondence you've had, may help those on this forum offer good, accurate advice. Be warned though. It may not be what you want to hear.

The OP certainly won't get any sympathy from the usual suspects on this forum, but please don't tar us all with this inflexible brush.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Forgive me if im wrong but is an anytime single from London to Doncaster not £105?

If that is indeed the case why did the OP receive a "fine" of £120?

I always thought in these situations you were charged the anytime single rate?
It will probably be the £105 fare plus an extra £15 fee from RPSS for not paying in full within the initial 7 / 14 days that is required.

I think a common mistake people make is that they can appeal and then wait for the appeal before paying. Sadly not. As RPSS advises:

RPSS said:
Unless and until your full payment has been received and cleared, the debt remains outstanding and administration fees can be added to cover the costs of any necessary debt recovery action.

Even if you have appealed, the debt recovery action will continue and administration fees become due if you do not pay the full amount owing within the time specified. If your appeal is successful, then a refund will be made of any fares amount overpaid...

...Please be aware that making an appeal does not mean that payment of any amount outstanding is suspended. Debt recovery action is separate from any appeal and administration fees may be incurred if full payment is not made within the time specified.
 

MarkyMarkD

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I think a common mistake people make is that they can appeal and then wait for the appeal before paying. Sadly not. As RPSS advises:
Perhaps a sadder mistake people make is thinking that they have grounds for appeal when - like this OP - they have none at all. Getting on the wrong train because you are late is not a ground for appeal. And entering a spurious appeal is not a ground for paying late.

As per previous posts, the fact that this is not a first "offence" gives cause for concern about the OP's attitude towards holding correct tickets for travel.
 

oversteer

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bebu sorry you are in a bit of a sticky situation. Because you missed your booked train and got on a later one, you didn't have a valid ticket for travel.

"Advance" tickets are only valid on one specific service (a certain train leaving at a certain time). Most of the time, if you miss that train then your ticket is not valid.

So, the 'inspector' sold you a new full-price ticket, and because you didn't have the cash, it goes via RPSS who will try to recover the money from you, plus their fee for handling it. It's not a fine, or anything to punish you, it's just that you didn't have a valid ticket for the train you travelled on and so you had to buy one. The inspector has to sell you a full price ticket, which are much more expensive than tickets you can buy in advance.

Why did you miss the first train? Be honest! I'm sure we've all been there, missing a train or plane at some point in life. Did you genuinely just leave it too late to travel to the station?

Unless there are some special circumstances, the £120 will have to be paid one way or another. It's very important that you write to RPSS immediately and let them know about your financial situation, detail your income and your weekly expenditure and demonstrate to them that it is not possible to pay it immediately. How much do you think you could pay off per month ?

You should send it first class post today to ensure you don't miss the 14 day deadline.

If you do not pay, it may go to court and then you will have additional costs to consider. These will probably double or triple the amount to pay, so it's important you contact RPSS as soon as possible.
 
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michael769

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What if I dont have the money ???

I know If I leave it and default I would incurr more charges and would destroy my credit ratings, so in my fustration am seeking advise on how to go about this
Firstly as this is not part of a licensed credit agreement it cannot negatively impact your credit rating (despite what any debt collectors might try to tell you) until they take you to court, then win and you fail to pay the court judgment within the allotted time.

But you should not allow it to go that far as the expenses involved in a lost court actionwill dwarf what you have to pay now. If you really have no way to pay then the only result of this would be bankruptcy which would have potentially catastrophic consequences for your immediate future.

I would recommend in the first instance getting in touch to agree some form of repayment plant that you cannot afford - the sooner you do this the less costs will mount up. They do not have to agree but if they do not it would not look good for them when/if they took it to court. I advise that you contact the Citizens Advice Service for debt assistance as soon as possible - they are experts at helping people negotiate suitable agreements with their creditors and are best placed to help you minimize the impact of this on your life - but you will need to accept that you will face having to make a few sacrifices to get your finances back on track!
 

ainsworth74

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I think it would be useful if the OP could confirm for us exactly what tickets were held, what train(s) they were supposed to travel on, with which company and what train they actually traveled on and again with which company that was. Otherwise I feel any advice given can only be given in terms of generalities.
 

island

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If you really have no way to pay then the only result of this would be bankruptcy which would have potentially catastrophic consequences for your immediate future.
That's a bit dramatic. Not least when there's a minimum of £750 in question for this route.
 

michael769

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That's a bit dramatic. Not least when there's a minimum of £750 in question for this route.
It can be dramatic. Unfortunately it is not unheard of for debt collection and court costs to exceed that sum. The good news is that if he acts now and obtains advice from citizens advice or his Local Councils debt assistance service he can avert that and make some arrangement to get the debt paid over time - it is not something the ToC really wants to see happen.
 

island

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Or, indeed, advice from ourselves. I hope the OP will be back to expand on the issues he's had, and that other respondents will try to focus their efforts on helping him to take matters forward from where he is, rather than demeaning him for putting himself in the situation.
 

RJ

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Or, indeed, advice from ourselves. I hope the OP will be back to expand on the issues he's had, and that other respondents will try to focus their efforts on helping him to take matters forward from where he is, rather than demeaning him for putting himself in the situation.
This is too true. One of the first replies was a useless response which appeared to be pedancy for the sake of self satiety. Numerous subsequent responses appeared from people who are clearly already familiar with the rules, repeatedly lambasting the OP with the same point over and over again, as if it wasn't clear enough the first time. The OP already knows that they have been charged for being on the wrong train.

No wonder the forum is being derided elsewhere, when we have people being so abjectly unhelpful. It's that kind of attitude that keeps the enthusiast down in the credibility stakes.


 
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I know this won't help you much now OP, but it might be helpful for the future for you to know that you could have bought a ticket for travel on Hull Trains or Grand Central to Doncaster for less than £50.

In general, it is always a good idea to simply visit the ticket office to check what the cheapest option is when you miss your train, instead of boarding the next one with an invalid ticket.
 

bb21

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This is too true. One of the first replies was a useless response which appeared to be pedancy for the sake of self satiety.
I do not agree that it is pure pedantry. It is important for people to understand the differences between the two as the implications are widely different.

However I do agree that it is not helpful for the OP to be told repeatedly that he has done something wrong, as he has probably realised that.

There are a number of questions that need to be answered before we can provide more specific advice such as those posed by ainsworth.

I think it would be useful if the OP could confirm for us exactly what tickets were held, what train(s) they were supposed to travel on, with which company and what train they actually traveled on and again with which company that was. Otherwise I feel any advice given can only be given in terms of generalities.
Regardless of the circumstances, I do echo the comments by some members that the OP should get in touch with RPSS without delay to avoid further charges being incurred.
 

bebu

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Hello guys,
I bought a ticket on eastcoast.co.uk from london to hull and got to the kings cross train station on the day.

I wasnt sure where to go so I asked an inspector, who looked at my ticket and he pointed me to the trains and I jumped on the train. Half way through the journey, a ticket inspector issued me a fine for £67 ( Saying it was for london to doncaster ) saying my ticket was for an earlier train, which was 10mins ago. Since I didnt have the money on me, he sent it to my house which I tried to appeal, but they kept compounding the amount. Till it got to £140.

I set up a payment arrangement, which I was unable to meet, as I was a student at the time, and got a 4 year old daughter ( as a dependant )

...and then I got a court summons, which am told there is nothing that can be done but appear in doncaster and I live in hull. Which is less than a week from now, as I got the letter late, since I had been away with family down south.

I am not working, but started up a new business and job hunting. I got a family member to pay the fine, but east coast customer service said there is nothing they cant do about it now, as its now a legal matter

Please advice, as I would hate to appear in the courts

many thanks

B
 

DaveNewcastle

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If I'm not mistaken, you enquired on here, in May 2012, for advice about this same matter, which was already some time after the event. You were asked some questions of clarification and were also given some advice at that time. One question asked for claification about a prior incident you had alluded to ("The last time, I got such a fine, . . ") .

You also reported that "I was given a fine of £120 which I sent a letter of appeal to the RPSS https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk which was rejected and I was asked to pay within 14days of dated.". When did that 14 day period expire?

Although you didn't answer any of the questions back in May, are we to assume that you still have not made any sort of offer to settle your debt? You say that a family member has paid the fine, but that you have a Summons to appear in Court. What is the Offence that you are being asked to answer?

I regret that any further advice on here is going to be unreliable if we are not clear about the actual correspondence between you and the Company over the past year. If you would be good enough to give us all the facts, then there may be some helpful advice that can be given, even if you are asking just a few days before your scheduled Court appearance.
 

bebu

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If I'm not mistaken, you enquired on here, in May 2012, for advice about this same matter, which was already some time after the event. You were asked some questions of clarification and were also given some advice at that time. One question asked for claification about a prior incident you had alluded to ("The last time, I got such a fine, . . ") .

You also reported that "I was given a fine of £120 which I sent a letter of appeal to the RPSS https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk which was rejected and I was asked to pay within 14days of dated.". When did that 14 day period expire?

Although you didn't answer any of the questions back in May, are we to assume that you still have not made any sort of offer to settle your debt? You say that a family member has paid the fine, but that you have a Summons to appear in Court. What is the Offence that you are being asked to answer?

I regret that any further advice on here is going to be unreliable if we are not clear about the actual correspondence between you and the Company over the past year. If you would be good enough to give us all the facts, then there may be some helpful advice that can be given, even if you are asking just a few days before your scheduled Court appearance.
Thanks for the quick reply, Yes I did inquire back then. To answer your questions.

1. When I referred to the last time I got a fine, I wasnt referring to a train fine, but a payment demand that was within a few days.

2 . The 1st £120 fine was issued may 10th 2012. The 2nd for £140 was issued The 25th of may 2012

I apologize I didnt answer the questions, as shortly after, I went to my local money advice service in hull and they tried to negotiate a payment plan, which I defaulted in. As I honestly did not have the money

I finally got a family member to make the payment, but the east coast rep, refused saying its a legal issue now and I have to go to court

If I end up in the courts, what can I do, as am told there is no other option now

many thanks

B
 

DaveNewcastle

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You still need to tell us what you are being Summonsed to answer in Court.

I assume from "a payment plan, which I defaulted in" means that perhaps part of your fine is still due. Is that correct?
I'm sure the Summons and other correspondence will make it quite clear why you are being asked to attend a Court. Or perhaps there is another Offence with which you are being charged?

Had there been a previous fine for a railway ticketing incident? And had that been paid by the due date?

Please tell us and give a little bit of the history of the correspondence (if we don't know what has already been negotiated, successfully of not, then we can't advise).
 

bebu

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It says...


In that you did, in a non compulsory ticket area, fail to hand over for inspection a ticket entitling you to travel, when requested to do so by an authorised person, contrary to railway byelaw 18(2)


As I said above, I bought a ticket online, and took a train which was 10 mins after the original ticket I bought.

I had appealed the situation which was declined, but each time they declined it, they kept compounding it by £20. So I went to citizen's advice, who sent me to money advice, who setup a payment plan. Which I was unable to meet.

Pls advice, many thanks
B
 

DaveNewcastle

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That answers the question of what the Summons is for, and also implies that you still owe some of the agreed payments.

Please now answer the other questions which I and others have asked you (in this and in your previous thread).
 

bebu

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That answers the question of what the Summons is for, and also implies that you still owe some of the agreed payments.

Please now answer the other questions which I and others have asked you (in this and in your previous thread).
funny i don't get alerts when a reply is made. Will get back to you shortly

Thanks




--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Answers to the initial thread.

1. What you were given sounds like an Unpaid Fees Notice(UFN).

yes

2. Reply to Island --- It was an eastcoast train from london to doncaster, I was meant to travel on the 14.35pm and got on the 14.38pm ( 3 minutes apart )

3. Reply to Lexyboy --- Owing to the fact, I had just completed my course at the university and was in a bit of debt, I went to the money advice service, who call all my creditors and drafted a payment plan. However I was unable to meet the obligations to eastcoast then, as I was not working and defaulted, hence the summons.

4. Reply to BraintheLion --- It was an eastcoast train from london to doncaster and a change to hull. The ticket I bought was for £33 and the fine, was £105 and compounded over time.

5. Reply to overseer --- To be honest, I got to the station on time, to pick up my ticket and was hanging around, when I noticed the time, I rushed to the station and asked an inspector where the train to hull was, and he pointed to it and I jumped in.

The above info, is true. AS I stated, I never got alerts from this forum after posting it and tried to sort the problem with citizen's advice.


many thanks

B
 

island

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You still need to tell us what you are being Summonsed to answer in Court.

I assume from "a payment plan, which I defaulted in" means that perhaps part of your fine is still due. Is that correct?
I'm sure the Summons and other correspondence will make it quite clear why you are being asked to attend a Court. Or perhaps there is another Offence with which you are being charged?

Had there been a previous fine for a railway ticketing incident? And had that been paid by the due date?

Please tell us and give a little bit of the history of the correspondence (if we don't know what has already been negotiated, successfully of not, then we can't advise).
I don't think there has been any fines in the legal sense, which would have required a court case to have been concluded with a guilty verdict. It seems that bebu was issued with two or more Unpaid Fares Notice which he/she didn't, couldn't, or wouldn't pay. Additional sums have been demanded in respect of administration fees.

If it is the case that the alleged offences occurred in May 2012, would it not be out of time for the Train Operating Company to issue criminal proceedings?

You can get an alert when you receive a response to a thread by clicking Thread Tools at the top of the thread, choosing Subscribe, and choosing from the dropdown whether you would like an instant alert, or one every day or every week. You can choose to have this happen for every thread you post to by going to your options and choosing the preferred option under Default Thread Subscription Mode.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also for reference, here's the previous thread. Perhaps a moderator might be good enough to merge them and reopen the last one.
 
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Greenback

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I have merged the threads and reopened the original one. I have also edited the thread title to reflect the latest developments.

It is a pity that the OP did not return in May. I feel that there are still questions that remain unanswered.
 
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