What is so bad about a Pacer?

[ryan125hst]

Good choice as it turns out !

Actually, I meant IC70 didn't I, not IC75.

 

[yorksrob]

Actually, I meant IC70 didn't I, not IC75.

I assumed you did .

 

[Paul_10]

Personally for me I think Pacer trains are fine to travel on, obviously as everyone knows they are not perfect by any means but I think with all the engine sounds and the different sounds when the throttle goes up, they do have character after all and I find riding a pacer on the Newcastle-Carlisle stretch fairly interesting.

That said, after experiencing riding a pacer with bus seats then I can understand why some don't like them because it was not as comfortable to travel on unlike the ex ATN green seats. I'm glad too see the bus seats are gradually being phased out though, because imo those seats are just not suitable for longer journeys, yes I can accept them on a Metrobus for a longer journey but not a train!

Despite kind of liking the pacers, I do hope they get replaced in 7 years and as an enthusiast, it will be interesting what their replacements will be. Whatever the franchise will be by 2020, whilst the number won't be anywhere enough to replace the whole pacer fleet I hope the Class 170 trains from other companies get considered, would be a suitable and more modern replacement whilst costs for running the trains won't be as expensive by that time than say running Class 185 trains, not that TPE would even consider cascading those for a while yet.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally for me I think Pacer trains are fine to travel on, obviously as everyone knows they are not perfect by any means but I think with all the engine sounds and the different sounds when the throttle goes up, they do have character after all and I find riding a pacer on the Newcastle-Carlisle stretch fairly interesting.

That said, after experiencing riding a pacer with bus seats then I can understand why some don't like them because it was not as comfortable to travel on unlike the ex ATN green seats. I'm glad too see the bus seats are gradually being phased out though, because imo those seats are just not suitable for longer journeys, yes I can accept them on a Metrobus for a longer journey but not a train!

Despite kind of liking the pacers, I do hope they get replaced in 7 years and as an enthusiast, it will be interesting what their replacements will be. Whatever the franchise will be by 2020, whilst the number won't be anywhere enough to replace the whole pacer fleet I hope the Class 170 trains from other companies get considered, would be a suitable and more modern replacement whilst costs for running the trains won't be as expensive by that time than say running Class 185 trains, not that TPE would even consider cascading those for a while yet.

Newcastle - Carlisle is exactly the sort of route they are definately not suited for. I did the route for the first time recently and being squashed on an overcrowded and uncomfortable pacer really detracted from what should have been an enjoyable journey.

 

[fireftrm]

Hexham to Newcastle is truly awful on a Pacer, Hexham to Carlisle is excruciatingly dreadful, Newcastle to Carlisle would be a great punishment alternative for courts to consider.

There should be a refund every time someone has to suffer a Pacer beyond 20 minutes.

The bus seat examples should be re-seated immediately and the ex-Arriva high back seats consigned to the same heap as the bus variety (uncomfortable and cramped at best). The West/South Yorks high back seats look better, never having suffered a Pacer beyond the North East I can't comment, but they do 'look' more acceptable. The train would still be diabolically rubbish though.

I stick with what is wrong with Pacers - absolutely everything, please let's start a campaign to get them scrapped urgently. I see threads on new trains for the South East and wonder when the same may be true for the long suffering customers who get exposed to the Pacer.....

 

[43074]

Hexham to Newcastle is truly awful on a Pacer, Hexham to Carlisle is excruciatingly dreadful, Newcastle to Carlisle would be a great punishment alternative for courts to consider.

There should be a refund every time someone has to suffer a Pacer beyond 20 minutes.

Does anyone know which trains on the Newcastle to Carlisle line are booked for Pacers? I am planning to do a North East Round Robin in a few weeks time (w/c 8th July probably) and from the sounds of some of these posts it would be nice to avoid them as far as possible (never had reason to use a pacer before - I've always been lucky enough to be able to use an alternative).

 

[Paul_10]

Newcastle - Carlisle is exactly the sort of route they are definately not suited for. I did the route for the first time recently and being squashed on an overcrowded and uncomfortable pacer really detracted from what should have been an enjoyable journey.

Well when I have to do the route I usually do the quickest one which is the one that departs Newcastle at 9:26 so I only spend an hour and 20 mins on a pacer but from my experience, it never gets all that busy really(usually spare seats whenever I go on them) but on a personal point of view, apart from the screeching, I actually enjoy the ride and the seats are okay to sit on.

I have tended too see the Hexham - Middlesbrough trains being quite full at peak times and it does look a bit of a squash so my opinion of being on a pacer would probably differ if I had to stand for a while on them.

 

[43074]

Lets not forget the Pacers saved numerous local lines from being closed by BR in the '80s because they were cheap to operate whilst times were tough economically.

I suppose (or would rather hope) the Pacers were a stop-gap before anything better could have been procured. And here ends any similarity between a Pacer and an HST.

 

[yorksrob]

Well when I have to do the route I usually do the quickest one which is the one that departs Newcastle at 9:26 so I only spend an hour and 20 mins on a pacer but from my experience, it never gets all that busy really(usually spare seats whenever I go on them) but on a personal point of view, apart from the screeching, I actually enjoy the ride and the seats are okay to sit on.

I have tended too see the Hexham - Middlesbrough trains being quite full at peak times and it does look a bit of a squash so my opinion of being on a pacer would probably differ if I had to stand for a while on them.

I must admit, the occasion I did it was a Saturday and there were some standees on the stretch toward Newcastle. The Hexham - Middlesborough train was a 156 which looked somewhat more inviting and IMO far more suitable for the journey to Carlisle.

 

[Crossover]

Maybe it is just through using them, I have actually started to enjoy journeys on Pacers on the whole - I think the breakthrough was 2 hours on one on the Gainsborough Central Parly nearly 2 years ago.

That said, I do think the 144's are better than the others and ex Merseytravel 142's are just plain awful.

A run on a cold winters day in an ex-Merseyrail Class 142 unit that entails travelling over jointed track would be most certainly the ultimate in the annals of "horrors of rail travel".

That would be us on the Hope Valley between Christmas and New Year last year then :P

Actually, that journey turned out to be not too bad

She looked the unfortunate Public Relations man straight in the eye and said to him in a severe tone of voice "Young man, I have a train ticket for this journey. If I had wanted to travel on a bus, I would have done so."...

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lets not forget the Pacers saved numerous local lines from being closed by BR in the '80s because they were cheap to operate whilst times were tough economically.

I suppose (or would rather hope) the Pacers were a stop-gap before anything better could have been procured. And here ends any similarity between a Pacer and an HST.

Lets not forget the Pacers were forced on BR by Government. BR wanted all 150's but the Ministry insisted on cheaper alternatives, though I've heard it said that they ended up costing as much as a new 150 due to having to be re-engined and re geraboxed.

 

[edwin_m]

At the time the Pacers came along the alternative wasn't the 150, it was the prototype 210 which was nice but very expensive. 150s came along after a realisation that the 210 would never be affordable but the Pacers weren't a suitable replacement for all the services worked by first-generation DMUs.

 

[ash39]

Someone above said that the engine noise has character. It doesn't at all. It reminds me of a knackered boat I went on in the Maldives, every step in power just creates more noise and intense vibration and the vehicle moves a little bit quicker!!

 

[Bevan Price]

Does anyone know which trains on the Newcastle to Carlisle line are booked for Pacers? I am planning to do a North East Round Robin in a few weeks time (w/c 8th July probably) and from the sounds of some of these posts it would be nice to avoid them as far as possible (never had reason to use a pacer before - I've always been lucky enough to be able to use an alternative).

Last time I was at Carlisle, around half the Newcastle trains were 142s. The through services to/from Glasgow via Dumfries are Scotrail Class 156s (shown SR in the public timetable, but manned by Northern crews between Carlisle & Newcastle) - they guarantee avoiding a Pacer. On the other trains, you may sometimes have to wait an hour or two to get a Class 156.
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Lets not forget the Pacers saved numerous local lines from being closed by BR in the '80s because they were cheap to operate whilst times were tough economically.
.

I suggest that is something of a myth. The vast majority of Pacers were put on big city suburban services (around Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Newcastle, and later at Cardiff.) that were never threatened with closure in the 1980s. Only a minority operated on branch lines - and the Western soon got rid of those initially sent to Cornish branch lines

But I agree with others that we can probably blame Thatcher's Treasury for BR getting lumbered with them rather than something more suitable.

 

[starrymarkb]

Indeed, but I am fortunate in that doesn't apply to me, as there are toilets at either end of my regular Pacer journey, which is short enough for me not to need to use the toilets!



Yes, I meant to say in my first post on this thread that the visibility is good.



The Swiss scenic carriages are brilliant, but they do have the advantage of a bigger loading guage, which contributes to the air of spaciousness and brightness.

I also think that the length of the more modern units seems to lead to a narrower, and smaller, feel to the interiors. These days I find the Arriva 158's more claustrophobic than I used to, but I have never felt claustrophobic on the shorter Pacers!

The Glacier Express stock will almost fit UK gauge (main issue is clearance at the sides below platform level) as it is metre gauge. The Stadler Spatz is an emu version with roof windows on the central motor car. I was also impressed with the size of the windows on the Talent 2 - In the over bogie sections the windows were floor to ceiling
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At the time the Pacers came along the alternative wasn't the 150, it was the prototype 210 which was nice but very expensive. 150s came along after a realisation that the 210 would never be affordable but the Pacers weren't a suitable replacement for all the services worked by first-generation DMUs.

Indeed. The 150 was a compromise, based on a successful Dutch DMU used on their 'Sprinter' stopping services

 

[Darren R]

To hark back to the infancy of the Class 142 Pacer fleet, when they were first introduced upon the Manchester Victoria-Oldham Mumps-Rochdale route, in the first week of their operation, there were Inspectors and Public Relations staff travelling on them and asking the passengers what they thought of these new trains. One female Oldham resident, about 70 years of age, was not at all impressed with this new mode of travel and mentioned the seating, the doors, etc, but her most scathing comment came at the end of the survey under the "any other comments" section, when she was asked if she had anything to add.

She looked the unfortunate Public Relations man straight in the eye and said to him in a severe tone of voice "Young man, I have a train ticket for this journey. If I had wanted to travel on a bus, I would have done so."...

In the immortal phrase so often used by Max Boyce, I was there, to observe this event. Motto : Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

The first time I ever rode on a 142 was on this very route. I was actually quite impressed with them - right up to the point where I got my head trapped in the doors getting off at Rochdale. (Unfamiliar with push-button operated doors someone pressed the close button just at the wrong moment.) For some unfathomable reason I suddenly became less of a fan...

One thing in their favour though has to be the windows. I cannot think of any other current rolling stock where you are even close to having a window at every seat. Wouldn't fancy going up to Fort William on one though!

The former Merseyrail 142s though would be more accurately described as mobile torture chambers! And aren't there Elfensafety laws about noise levels? I am surprised the unions don't insist on ear plugs. Going round a sharp curve is painful - and there are plenty of them across the Northern network!

 

[Quakers Yard]

Loads of Pacers in the Valleys. Prefer the bus seats but the toilets are disgusting and you dont sit near the doors in the winter. Shame we cant have Sprinters all the time as they were introduced in 88ish to replace far superior three car Derby slamdoor stock that felt like you were on a train and not a bus!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am serious you know! I did actually enjoy a ride on a Pacer!

I'm being serious as well... I really do like them.

Out of curiosity, whioch ones still have the original bus style seating?

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm being serious as well... I really do like them.

Out of curiosity, whioch ones still have the original bus style seating?

Mainly those based at Newton Heath (apart from the Merseyrail seating units)

 

[northwichcat]

Lets not forget the Pacers saved numerous local lines from being closed by BR in the '80s because they were cheap to operate whilst times were tough economically.

I suppose (or would rather hope) the Pacers were a stop-gap before anything better could have been procured. And here ends any similarity between a Pacer and an HST.

The difference between short-term between a Pacer and HST is that a HST would have been cascaded on to alternative suitable routes. The Pacers were intended for low-usage lines. Once passenger numbers increased on lines like the Penistone Line there were no other suitable alternative routes to cascade them on to without using them on types of services which they weren't intended for.

Also the government tried to force Pacers on PTEs for lines that were safe. Centro managed to escape getting Pacers but other PTEs didn't manage to escape.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

I travelled from Retford to Meadowhall and back on Wednesday, a total journey time of about two hours. I have to be honest, I am now wondering why there are so many complaints about the Pacers.

All in all, it was a pleasant journey. I'm sure that on rougher track or sharper curves, or a longer journey, I might have a different opinion, but I was pleasantly surprised. We should be thankful they exist really, as many branch lines might be closed without them.

Your thoughts?

Ryan

Was it a Class 142 or 143 you were on ? Lincoln Services are booked at 143, much more leg room in a 143 than a 142.

If your on Twitter ? I would pop in #northernrail or #northernfail , the public of Manchester seem to dislike this unit the most, todays complaints are about the heating been on full blast.

May I ask why you did not go up the ECML to Doncaster to Meadowhall ? 12 minutes from Retford then 30 minutes from Doncaster to Meadowhall ?

 

[northwichcat]

Was it a Class 142 or 143 you were on ? Lincoln Services are booked at 143, much more leg room in a 143 than a 142.

Since when? All the 143s belong to Porterbrook and are subleased to ATW and FGW.

If you mean 144s have more leg room then I don't agree. They have less leg room than the bus seating on the 142s.

 

[sheff'd victoria]

Since when? All the 143s belong to Porterbrook and are subleased to ATW and FGW.

If you mean 144s have more leg room then I don't agree. They have less leg room than the bus seating on the 142s.

Sorry Im getting the 144's mixed up with the 143's

144's are normaly on the Lincoln route. as for the seating, their are not many 142's going around Sheffield that has the old bench seating left, this is why I said about the poor leg room on the Cattle Trucks

 

[ryan125hst]

Was it a Class 142 or 143 you were on ? Lincoln Services are booked at 143, much more leg room in a 143 than a 142.

If your on Twitter ? I would pop in #northernrail or #northernfail , the public of Manchester seem to dislike this unit the most, todays complaints are about the heating been on full blast.

May I ask why you did not go up the ECML to Doncaster to Meadowhall ? 12 minutes from Retford then 30 minutes from Doncaster to Meadowhall ?

I thought it was a 142, although to be honest, I didn't get time to see the unit number and I can't remember the cab design now (there is an obvious difference between the 142 and 144). The former do still go to Lincoln as I have to cross a bridge over the line when I walk to my sixth form and I have seen them regularly.

I'm not on Twitter but I think I am still able to look.

The reason why I went via Sheffield was because I went with three friends. One got on the train at Retford with me, the other two boarded at Worksop. The other reason is the fare (from Retford) is about £5 more (I don't know about Worksop) for the any permitted ticket vs the £10.80 return fare via Sheffield that I was sold (I didn't even have to ask for that route- it was sold automatically).

While I wouldn't have minded paying extra, particularly as I have never covered the Doncaster to Meadowhall section, it would have been unfair to expect everyone else to pay more.

 

[northwichcat]

Someone from Lytham sent a photo of a Pacer passing through the countryside to Granada Reports at the weekend which got used on the weather forecast. However, it looked like they had utilsied a posterize feature on the photo which made it look like a giant toy train travelling through the countryside.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

142s ( from Heaton! ) do work on Sheffield - Doncaster - Lincoln diagrams.

 

[ainsworth74]

Mainly those based at Newton Heath (apart from the Merseyrail seating units)

There are also a couple former FGW units that are now based at Heaton so are regulars on services around the North East.

 

[Crossover]

There are also a couple former FGW units that are now based at Heaton so are regulars on services around the North East.

And thanks to them now being run by Northern, they seem to get in a progressively worse state each time I travel on them!

 

[Statto]

To hark back to the infancy of the Class 142 Pacer fleet, when they were first introduced upon the Manchester Victoria-Oldham Mumps-Rochdale route, in the first week of their operation, there were Inspectors and Public Relations staff travelling on them and asking the passengers what they thought of these new trains. One female Oldham resident, about 70 years of age, was not at all impressed with this new mode of travel and mentioned the seating, the doors, etc, but her most scathing comment came at the end of the survey under the "any other comments" section, when she was asked if she had anything to add.

She looked the unfortunate Public Relations man straight in the eye and said to him in a severe tone of voice "Young man, I have a train ticket for this journey. If I had wanted to travel on a bus, I would have done so."...

In the immortal phrase so often used by Max Boyce, I was there, to observe this event. Motto : Don't teach your grandmother to suck eggs.

I'd have loved to see the look on the PR mans face after that comment.

I don't like Pacers, they shouldn't be used on busy commuter routes as they quickly fill up. The ride over points, sharp curves, the latter which you need ear plugs for, & the ride feels like being on a ferry in a force 10 Gale. Don't like the bus style seats, ok for short journey but uncomfortable for journeys that take 45+ min.

Pacers feel like were built on the cheap, to replace the first generation DMUs, the ride is uncomfortable due to 2 wheels on the bogeys rather than the normal 4 wheels, & quite slow.

 

[gnolife]

Trainload of unamused normals on th 1914 MAN - MIA stopper - weve got a pretty poor nick ex ATN pacer on it