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What makes a good livery?

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Sorcerer

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I notice a couple of people have mentioned Avanti and how rubbish their livery is. My feeling is that it would be vastly improved by just making all the coaches the same.

Having the section with the variously coloured angular bits repeat every 1½ coach lengths, so that it sometimes falls on the doors and sometimes in the middle, was probably intended by a marketing agency to make it look "quirky" or something, but it actually just makes it look like it's missing bits.
If that was the goal then I wonder how much of that was done with the intention of distinguishing themselves enough from Virgin while still retaining a hip and quirky brand image of their own. Their social media teams have certainly tried to keep this up, and while it is still largely the same people, it just doesn't translate as well in my opinion.

That said, it's better than Virgin's pathetic attempt at applying Flowing Silk to the Pendolinos - slap it on a bit of the driving cars and leave the rest of the train plain white. They should have at least put the black window bands in.
Virgin were in a position of needing to maintain a largely neutral livery to enable an easy transition in the event of operator change (which obviously did happen in the end) but also wanted to retain their branding. They did retain a the black window bands on a few units though which perfectly demonstrated the difference they can make in enhancing a livery. That said I'm keen to know what a Pendolino in full flowing silk would've looked like. For some reason I don't think it would've translated as well as it would've done on the Class 800.
 
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John Luxton

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Yes. I was an absolute avid spotter and photographer in the 1970s. So many of my pictures are boring BR blue. To me, anything that is different than this is good. The colors on the class 69s so far I am loving Reall good looking locos.

Virgin West Coast was fantastic. Really good brand recognition there.
Yes a lot of truth in what you say about boring BR blue.

For various reasons I drifted away from mainline rail travel in the early 1980s and have only recently returned with a new vigour - the current diverse collection of operators really do now make the railways a transport photographer's paradise.
 

gg1

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I've always liked liveries where the yellow warning panel actually gives the appearance of being an integral part of the design rather than being slapped on as an afterthought as is the case with many liveries.

Good examples are Eurostar (more so on the 373 than the 374), BR large logo, original HST power car blue & yellow and Virgin West Coast (especially on the Pendolinos).
 

Ashley Hill

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Yes. I was an absolute avid spotter and photographer in the 1970s. So many of my pictures are boring BR blue. To me, anything that is different than this is good. The colors on the class 69s so far I am loving - really good looking locos.
I’ve never found BR blue boring. I get quite nostalgic looking at John Woolleys photos from the 70s/80s in the photo section of the site.
 

driverd

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Make no mistake, this isn't a question about what train operator has the best livery. At least not in the sense of your personal favourite. But rather this thread raises the question as to what makes a good livery for a train operator and why some liveries are better than others. For me personally, a good livery is one that is simple (as in design and pattern), distinctive, appropriately branded, and enhances the look and design of the train.

What a great thread idea! Much more interesting than personal preferences.

I broadly agree, however, I think it's really important to recognise the marketing value of the livery, and how the livery is placed to represent the brand values and corporate image of the operator - simply, it's the operators single most ubiquitous marketing tool. For this reason, I'd agree and disagree with a few of your comments, and add some of my own.

Additionally, a good livery also uses the appropriate amount of colours and mixture of colours so that it's striking enough to be noticeable and distinctive but also simple enough that it's not a total eyesore. I would argue that three is generally the magic number for a train livery with maybe a fourth colour at a push if used correctly.

Absolutely agree. Less is more when it comes to a colour palette.

All of these considered, I would personally consider the following liveries to be the best:
  • CrossCountry: It's dark burgundy/brown roof and cab sides with silver bodyshell and grey and black window bands gives it a very sleek and distinctive modern look. I would argue that it's quite overbranded though unfortunately and could do with less text on the side of the trains themselves.

Certainly meets the fewer colours requirement - I also agree, the wording is overused. The livery, I feel, is distinctive enough that the brand is portrayed by the livery in its own right. The wording, twice per vehicle, is overkill.

  • Grand Central: The black base colour combined with a modestly applied orange stripe and white doors (except gold for first class) make this livery stand out for it's sheer uniqueness and really gives a grand feel true to the operator's name. It gives them a really premier feel without looking like an outdated steam-era livery that would otherwise look bad in a lot of other colours in my opinion.

I would again say, like cross country, grand Central is over branded. Smaller, more subtle logos would be a better compromise, but a fair summary none the less. Its a great shame that grand Centrals interior screams cheap and tacky. Shown an image of just the interior, you wouldn't very blamed for wondering when easyjet became a train operator - primarily due to the similar seat maquette.

  • GNER: One of the old ones that no longer exists on the rail network, but I still believe it's a prime example of how a minimal use of colour variety can play to a livery's strength. The dark blue base colour and red stripes/doors made this livery look very smart back in the days of GNER, and some would even argue it's the best that's ever been on the East Coast Main Line since privatisation.

Possibly even the best post-privatisation livery. For me, a key feature of the livery was how it portrayed the brand imagine that GNER were aspiring to quite perfectly. They didn't have to say they were trying to be the best - the livery did it for them. I do think, however, the mallard refurbishment (both internally and externally), rather spoilt this.

  • Virgin Trains: Another old one that no longer exists on the network, but still a distinctive livery that gave the Pendolino fleet a sleek modern look in line with the West Coast Main Line modernisation with it's red roof and cab sides and silver bodyshell separated by a swooshing white band, black window bands, and even a distinctive yellow smile that was well incorporated into the livery itself.

I would also extend this to the old red/black livery. Again, it embodied the brand values of virgin and, whilst unconventional, was certainly distinctive and appealing.

Of course naturally there will be some liveries that don't meet much of the criteria and will rank poorly. Some of these for me include:
  • Avanti West Coast: Non-LMS colours on the WCML aside (which is a personal preference for me anyway), the varying patterns on the white coaches combined with door colours changing makes this livery a little messy in my opinion. The cab cars look fine, but the white coaches could really do better than just having one side decorated while the other side remains largely bland and untouched. The Avanti triangles between the windows and doors don't help either and should be left solely at the side of the cab areas.

I'd disagree here. Whilst the execution isn't perfect, I think Avanti balances a degree of class and sophistication, with the more brash and loud elements of the virgin brand it replaced, rather a smart centre ground that makes the WCML look a little more sensible than it did 5 years ago, without making it look entirely unrecognisable to its customer base. The triangle theme on the carriages isn't supposed to be a replicated pattern and I think that looks quite charming, although I do agree it leaves a little plain white bodyside than always is desirable.

  • London North Eastern Railway: LMS colours on the wrong railway aside, the Class 800/801s really don't look that much better than their base livery of plain white when they first arrived. The mixtures of red across the window bands don't really suit the train in my opinion, and the grey doors do not exactly compliment the rolling stock either. Really not the look I'd personally want for an intercity operator.

If DOR wanted a livery that screamed austerity, perhaps?

  • Northern: The blue and white isn't really that bad, but the branding of various N stickers across the bodyshell along with a lack of black window bands to contrast with the plain whiteness really doesn't do any favours to this livery in my opinion. The N branding in particular doesn't help when it almost makes the operators name into "N-Northern".

Disagree here again. Whilst the livery is simple, I think it suits the CAF fleet very well and alludes a professionalism that the old northern (with its, garish, child like colour pallete, make it up as you go along branding - see various livery/logo revisions in the first few years and drab interiors) lacked. The colour palette is simple and effective, smart yet understated. The coloured northern logos add a degree of fun and 21st century. By no means a "write home about it" livery, but much smarter than its predecessor and very much on brand.

My honourable mention that was missed, would be the current TransPennine Express livery. It manages to blend a simple concept with a number of different colours. Unlike virgins silver livery, it manages to looks smart and modern, without looking cliche (nothing like swooping red contrasted with swooping white and "look at me" hazard striped doors for comical express train - very virgin!). The "star" logo is imagined well on the nose and its a surprisingly complex image that lends itself well to the various differing shapes of the fleet - and seems to nicely gel with TPEs corporate image.
 

Sorcerer

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What a great thread idea! Much more interesting than personal preferences.

I broadly agree, however, I think it's really important to recognise the marketing value of the livery, and how the livery is placed to represent the brand values and corporate image of the operator - simply, it's the operators single most ubiquitous marketing tool. For this reason, I'd agree and disagree with a few of your comments, and add some of my own.
Firstly, I am pleased to hear your praises and appreciation for this thread idea. I must admit that I did slightly worry that many would see it as a simple "favourite livery" with a twist, so your contributions will be very helpful! That said, I will address some of your personal disagreements for the sake of meaningful discussion, and also maybe address some of your other points too.

I would again say, like cross country, grand Central is over branded. Smaller, more subtle logos would be a better compromise, but a fair summary none the less. Its a great shame that grand Centrals interior screams cheap and tacky. Shown an image of just the interior, you wouldn't very blamed for wondering when easyjet became a train operator - primarily due to the similar seat maquette.
I must admit that I forgot about Grand Central's branding on the coaches. For some reason I remember them being plain black but evidently based on a Google search that isn't the case. Definitely agree though that it is very much overbranded.

Possibly even the best post-privatisation livery. For me, a key feature of the livery was how it portrayed the brand imagine that GNER were aspiring to quite perfectly. They didn't have to say they were trying to be the best - the livery did it for them. I do think, however, the mallard refurbishment (both internally and externally), rather spoilt this.
On a side-note, the corporate imagine of being traditional was in perfect contrast to Virgin who were going for a more hip, flashy futuristic image on the WCML. So this is actually a pretty interesting case of two liveries that not only compliment their own brands but also compliment each other through contrasting corporate images and business goals.

I would also extend this to the old red/black livery. Again, it embodied the brand values of virgin and, whilst unconventional, was certainly distinctive and appealing.
I did quite like the old red and black livery but I think it was right for Virgin to ditch it in favour of the silver and red because I just can't see it translating well onto the sleek new rolling stock.

I'd disagree here. Whilst the execution isn't perfect, I think Avanti balances a degree of class and sophistication, with the more brash and loud elements of the virgin brand it replaced, rather a smart centre ground that makes the WCML look a little more sensible than it did 5 years ago, without making it look entirely unrecognisable to its customer base. The triangle theme on the carriages isn't supposed to be a replicated pattern and I think that looks quite charming, although I do agree it leaves a little plain white bodyside than always is desirable.
I think you've made a good case for Avanti, and I understand that they obviously had to differentiate themselves from their predecessors while retaining some of the quirks customers were familiar with (which could also possibly be a reason that they opted not to use red in any of it's colour schemes since it is very much a signature Virgin colour), but for me personally I feel like it could've still been applied better, and that is kind of where personal preferences will overlap with our efforts to be as objective as possible in deciding what makes a good livery.

If DOR wanted a livery that screamed austerity, perhaps?
Hmm, perhaps.

Disagree here again. Whilst the livery is simple, I think it suits the CAF fleet very well and alludes a professionalism that the old northern (with its, garish, child like colour pallete, make it up as you go along branding - see various livery/logo revisions in the first few years and drab interiors) lacked. The colour palette is simple and effective, smart yet understated. The coloured northern logos add a degree of fun and 21st century. By no means a "write home about it" livery, but much smarter than its predecessor and very much on brand.
I'm not necessarily against plain white as long it's accompanied by things such as window bands or a bit more colours elsewhere, but I most certainly feel like the coloured Northern logos create the issue of overbranding and use of slightly too many colours, especially when it's on every coach and only becomes a bigger problem on longer units. To me it seems like something that school children would come up with and makes the stock look cheap in my honest opinion.

My honourable mention that was missed, would be the current TransPennine Express livery. It manages to blend a simple concept with a number of different colours. Unlike virgins silver livery, it manages to looks smart and modern, without looking cliche (nothing like swooping red contrasted with swooping white and "look at me" hazard striped doors for comical express train - very virgin!). The "star" logo is imagined well on the nose and its a surprisingly complex image that lends itself well to the various differing shapes of the fleet - and seems to nicely gel with TPEs corporate image.
I would almost wholeheartedly agree, though having seen what the 390 would look like without the white band to separate the red and silver it wouldn't quite look as nice in my opinion. I think it's also Virgin's whole point to be stand out with a "look at me" image, and on that basis the silver and red livery with it's hazard striped doors did that very well. The TransPennine Express livery though definitely makes perfect use of it's colours and patterns on all of their rolling stock and I think it definitely does a good job in projecting a new corporate image as the TPE franchise transitioned into a more intercity-style image.
 

trainmania100

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Personally I like a livery that has two colours, like the colas orange and black. The helmet on the cab side was my favourite.
I like the huge contrast between colours, and ones that stand out are better in my opinion.
 

Sorcerer

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Personally I like a livery that has two colours, like the colas orange and black. The helmet on the cab side was my favourite.
I like the huge contrast between colours, and ones that stand out are better in my opinion.
I think it makes for a good livery, but Colas Rail is a different style of operation, so having a distinctive livery that looks nice isn't as necessary as it would be on passenger train operators because the marketing will largely cater to those who want to transport freight. It does certainly do well as a livery for an industrial railway company, but it is most definitely caters to a very different audience.
 

urbophile

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Not good is anything that makes a train look like a road vehicle. I like Avanti's colour scheme. I think I might be out of step with most people here in not liking the confusing variety of liveries, and I'd much prefer a uniform design across the system (though I don't hold out much hope for that from 'Great' British Railways; I suspect they would want to go for a Union Jack pattern on all trains). If there is variety of liveries I think it should go with the types of train: a local commuter train could sensibly have a different style from a regional express, and that too distinct from intercity/ TGV equivalent (if we every get it).
 

43096

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Personally I like a livery that has two colours, like the colas orange and black. The helmet on the cab side was my favourite.
I like the huge contrast between colours, and ones that stand out are better in my opinion.
Colas has three colours…
 

AM9

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I notice a couple of people have mentioned Avanti and how rubbish their livery is. My feeling is that it would be vastly improved by just making all the coaches the same.

Having the section with the variously coloured angular bits repeat every 1½ coach lengths, so that it sometimes falls on the doors and sometimes in the middle, was probably intended by a marketing agency to make it look "quirky" or something, but it actually just makes it look like it's missing bits.

That reminds me, a few months ago I was travelling on the down WCML and every Pendolino that passed in the opposite direction when the sun was shining appeared to flash black and white. I don't suffer from epilepsy, but I can imagine it beig a problem for some.
 

Mikey C

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With SWT, to me the blue version was brilliant, the red version reasonable, while the white one looked a bit too like the Stagecoach bus livery!

I was a fan of the London Midland livery, as it managed to make older stock look fresh and modern, which is actually quite hard.

I'm not a fan of the SWR livery, as the colours are dull, and the shape of blue far less attractive than the SWT blue. The Southeastern livery isn't exciting, but does have nice shades of blue, and makes the 375 look so much smarter than the Connex white livery.
 

Mat17

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I think Southern's livery is very smart. Probably my favourite of the current liveries tbh.
 

fgwrich

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I must admit that I forgot about Grand Central's branding on the coaches. For some reason I remember them being plain black but evidently based on a Google search that isn't the case. Definitely agree though that it is very much overbranded.
Regarding Grand Central's branding - that suffers from one problem. Arriva.

It's branding wasn't too bad prior to the Arriva (by stealth) takeover, now everything has the somewhat irritatingly By Arriva tagline. So we are now left with Grand Central by Arriva, Chiltern Railways by Arriva etc. Thankfully XC seems to have dropped it, Northern by Arriva has finished and I think Wales disappeared before they started the somewhat clunky tagline. At least First's problem was the more simpler, and somewhat consistent, sticking First in front of most things, eg First Great Western, First Capital Connect, First Hull Trains, First Transpennine Express, First ScotRail.
 

pdeaves

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I think Southern's livery is very smart. Probably my favourite of the current liveries tbh.
I agree. That's one that has the right balance between heritage and modern and shows what 'old' Southern might have become. It's not a heritage livery but a modern take.
 

TRXsouth

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I agree. That's one that has the right balance between heritage and modern and shows what 'old' Southern might have become. It's not a heritage livery but a modern take.
Indeed - earlier posts mentioned simple liveries of two or three colours plus the effectiveness of green. Southern’s use of two shades of green plus the expanse of white and lower cream combine well across their fleet, 377 and 171, even the departed 455. Also agree that the London Midland looked sleek with the black and vivid green.
 

AndrewP

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I think the attributes of a good livery are as follows:
  • Proportion - it needs to fit what it is applied to with tweaks to suit each application
  • Relevance - It needs to suit the use - a train should look like a train not a packet of sweets
  • Consistency - No variation beyond the design guide as it dilutes the brand
  • Typography - A well chosen font can make a livery timeless, a bad one can date almost overnight
  • Colour - Colour that both look right and are practical i.e. hide the dirt
  • Individuality - Shouldn't look like someone else's brand no matter how good it is
  • Evolution - Let it adapt to changes in needs and tastes but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater
I really like GNER, Trans Pennine and GWR but never liked NSE and think that Silverlink was horrible
 

Bayum

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I think a strong livery has to be eye catching and has to stay ‘firm in people’s minds.
Midland Mainline’s original Tangerine + Teal has always stood out for me.

Virgin’s initial livery - people knew the
Virgin brand and subsequently you will still find people referring to Virgin trains etc.

But then you have the simple classics too - British Railways Swallow that everyone seems to instantly recognise though it has been removed since the early noughties, if not sooner.
 

the sniper

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A thing which matters a lot to me is that the shape of the vehicle is taken into account in the design of the livery which gets applied to it.

Take the fflecsi buses for example:
View attachment 115488
Photo of fflecsi branded Mercedes Sprinter vans in the Transport for Wales red-grey-black livery

The signature red band follows the roof, neatly angles to follow the windscreen and then elegantly wraps around the front of the van.

Does anybody know why TfW hasn't chosen to apply this livery to its new rolling stock...? The silver really does work far better than white and the difference will be even more stark when dirty. As I've said before, they literally could/should have just done a red version of the Swiss BLS livery, which I now see they already had on their buses!
 

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I would like GWR, if the shade of green was just a little bit less dark. It looks like black most of the time, a forest green tone would have been preferable. A stripe or window-band to break up the solid green would help, too.

LNER's livery is awful, being so obviously a rushed adaptation of the VTEC colours. I'm not a big fan of red in general though.

The worst of current liveries though, is Lumo. The solid blue over the whole train without anything other than branding to break it up is just awful. The shade of blue chosen isn't great either- their units just look like plastic toys as a result.

TPE is a pretty good one, not least because they tried to do something a bit different- rather than the default "white with coloured doors" template.
 

py_megapixel

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The worst of current liveries though, is Lumo. The solid blue over the whole train without anything other than branding to break it up is just awful. The shade of blue chosen isn't great either- their units just look like plastic toys as a result.
I have to do a double take whenever I see a photo of a Lumo unit as even in decent quality, perfectly legitimate photos, the livery looks like a bad photoshop job. Particularly at the front.
 

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I always thought that a Brush Type 4 (a 47 to you youngsters) looked really smart in its original two-tone green livery; the yellow warning panel fitting in perfectly with the overall design.

I find the current GWR livery just too dark. It's OK on bright sunny days but too somber in wet and dull conditions.
 

Goldfish62

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Re SWR livery, the description in the original post refers to the early vinyl version. I think the refined final version as applied to Desiros looks rather smart, although it's by no means a classic livery!!!

I always like the Blood and Custard on the Strathclyde PTE units. Simple and traditional.
Also the GWT Merlin livery was quite nice and suited the HSTs well.
I really liked the Merlin livery. Simple, but smart. The best of the multitude of post-privatisation GW liveries.

The First Barbie livery on HSTs was just awful.

Does anybody know why TfW hasn't chosen to apply this livery to its new rolling stock...? The silver really does work far better than white and the difference will be even more stark when dirty. As I've said before, they literally could/should have just done a red version of the Swiss BLS livery, which I now see they already had on their buses!
It might be that the buses were off-the-shelf dealer stock that happened to be silver.
 
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dorsetdesiro

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Came across this photo I took from ages ago, still can't believe this livery will soon be no more

20200616_200200(0).jpg
 

Railcar

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No mention so far about the pastoral green on Southern's 377 fleet. Matches the greens of the Surrey and Sussex countrysides
 

AM9

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I was a fan of the London Midland livery, as it managed to make older stock look fresh and modern, which is actually quite hard.

Yes, the 319s and 321s looked newer than when they were in their original NSE livery.
 
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