what should a new generation guards EPOS system do?

[34D]

With reference to the end of avantix, example this thread I was wondering what people think new machines ought to be able to do?

I will start this by noting both the rise in smartcard tickets, but also the reality that paper ticket (whether orange card, A4 paper, mobile tickets) will be around for the forseeable.

For me (as someone who works as a manager in the bus industry; where every passenger is logged with a series of buttons) it is not really acceptable that guards look at tickets and nod, with no input on their machine (I will return to this later).

What I think is required is a machine with a large touch screen, an ITSO reader (that doubles as a contactless reader), an aztec code scanner, a chip & pin reader, and a printer.

It would have a 3G/4G connection (and ideally be able to use the GSM-R masts, as it is indeed part of the operational railway) to transfer transactions and EFTPOS, as well as WiFi for downloading/docking at conductor base offices.
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Now the big change: I would like all tickets to be written to an accessible database, such that when their aztec code is scanned (on the barrier of their start station) it marks the ticket as started, a grip on the train marks it as used (to the pair of calling points the grip is inbetween) and the barrier at the 'end' station ends it. This would also allow BOJ to be undertaken fairly.

ITSO touches would do the exact same thing to smart tickets.

 

[Hadders]

This appears to be far to complicated to me.

What about tickets that don't get checked en-route (which must be the majority of journeys nationally when you consider metro style and DOO services).

What about multiple breaks of journeys? What'll happen when the signal breaks down?

To be totally honest while it would be great to have an Oyster style PAYG system nationwide (which'll never happen for reasons explained elsewhere), I don't see what we're going to gain with smart cards. You'll still have to buy individual tickets and load them to a card - what's the benefit to the passenger (or the rail industry for that matter) over and above what we already have with paper tickets?

 

[najaB]

It would have a 3G/4G connection (and ideally be able to use the GSM-R masts, as it is indeed part of the operational railway)...

And what, exactly, does the network operator (Network Rail) use ticket machines for?

 

[TEW]

To be totally honest while it would be great to have an Oyster style PAYG system nationwide (which'll never happen for reasons explained elsewhere), I don't see what we're going to gain with smart cards. You'll still have to buy individual tickets and load them to a card - what's the benefit to the passenger (or the rail industry for that matter) over and above what we already have with paper tickets?

The main benefits are for season ticket holders. A smartcard is far more convenient where ticket barriers are involved than a paper ticket, and they won't wear out and stop working the barriers anywhere near as quickly. Better for season ticket holders if they happen to lose it too, as the card can just be hotlisted and a replacement issued without the potential for fraud that exists with issuing duplicate paper season tickets.

 

[Hadders]

The main benefits are for season ticket holders. A smartcard is far more convenient where ticket barriers are involved than a paper ticket, and they won't wear out and stop working the barriers anywhere near as quickly. Better for season ticket holders if they happen to lose it too, as the card can just be hotlisted and a replacement issued without the potential for fraud that exists with issuing duplicate paper season tickets.

I agree with this. I'm still struggling to see the benefits for normal tickets though.

 

[najaB]

I'm still struggling to see the benefits for normal tickets though.

The only advantage that I can see for point-to-point tickets is that the ticket on departure experience can be made faster and more simple. Touch your card to the machine and go.

 

[cjmillsnun]

With reference to the end of avantix, example this thread I was wondering what people think new machines ought to be able to do?

I will start this by noting both the rise in smartcard tickets, but also the reality that paper ticket (whether orange card, A4 paper, mobile tickets) will be around for the forseeable.

OK That's a fair assumption to begin with.

For me (as someone who works as a manager in the bus industry; where every passenger is logged with a series of buttons) it is not really acceptable that guards look at tickets and nod, with no input on their machine (I will return to this later).

What I think is required is a machine with a large touch screen, an ITSO reader (that doubles as a contactless reader), an aztec code scanner, a chip & pin reader, and a printer.

With you so far, but include Oyster in that as an option[/quote]

It would have a 3G/4G connection (and ideally be able to use the GSM-R masts, as it is indeed part of the operational railway) to transfer transactions and EFTPOS, as well as WiFi for downloading/docking at conductor base offices.

It has already been determined that Revenue is a commercial use, therefore would not be allowed to use GSM-R (which is 2.5G anyway)

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Now the big change: I would like all tickets to be written to an accessible database, such that when their aztec code is scanned (on the barrier of their start station) it marks the ticket as started, a grip on the train marks it as used (to the pair of calling points the grip is inbetween) and the barrier at the 'end' station ends it. This would also allow BOJ to be undertaken fairly.

ITSO touches would do the exact same thing to smart tickets.

There you have a problem. Every station would need to be barriered. All would need an on-line link. The mobile coverage would have to be total.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There you have a problem. Every station would need to be barriered. All would need an on-line link. The mobile coverage would have to be total.

No, it wouldn't, if you accept that any such system would just be a bit better than the present one. The baseline is the present system - if it's in any way more secure and allows the greater use of mobile/self print tickets with a means of detecting fraud, it's better than the present system even if security is not total.

Indeed, not the entire Oyster system is barriered.
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Here's another suggestion for a feature that might be useful. In Switzerland I have the impression (might be wrong) that the guard enters the formation of the train onto the system via their "Gameboy" (well, like the DB ones they look a bit like that, and the DB ones are nicknamed that). Perhaps an idea? It would mean more accurate display of formations on PIS around the country if they could do that.

 

[najaB]

Indeed, not the entire Oyster system is barriered.

There are, however, validators so as to avoid incomplete journeys.

Here's another suggestion for a feature that might be useful. In Switzerland I have the impression (might be wrong) that the guard enters the formation of the train onto the system via their "Gameboy" (well, like the DB ones they look a bit like that, and the DB ones are nicknamed that). Perhaps an idea? It would mean more accurate display of formations on PIS around the country if they could do that.

Does the guard have a better idea of formations than the TOC's operations department?

 

[anme]

The only advantage that I can see for point-to-point tickets is that the ticket on departure experience can be made faster and more simple. Touch your card to the machine and go.

That's a big advantage. At busy times, the alternative is often adding 10-20 minutes to your journey so you have time to buy or collect a paper ticket.

Print at home tickets are another way to tackle this problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the guard have a better idea of formations than the TOC's operations department?

One would think not (or rather that they would both have equal knowledge), however it is a fact that the PIS often shows incorrect formation information, and it was just one suggestion as to how that might be resolved. Another more effective option might be some sort of feed from TRUST, but we're heading OT with that.

 

[34D]

This appears to be far to complicated to me.

What about tickets that don't get checked en-route (which must be the majority of journeys nationally when you consider metro style and DOO services).

In London, yes. Up north in leeds/manchester every train has a guard who can check the whole train.

I'm also putting my PTE mindset on here: samples are regularly undertaken (by all PTE's I think) of usage of their own tickets, to enable revenue allocation). Wouldn't this be so much more accurate if as many as possible journeys could be captured instead of 10%?

What about multiple breaks of journeys?

What I have proposed will be fine with such

What'll happen when the signal breaks down?

Data items stored for later, and EFTPOS reverting to offline

 

[sheff1]

I don't see what we're going to gain with smart cards. You'll still have to buy individual tickets and load them to a card - what's the benefit to the passenger (or the rail industry for that matter) over and above what we already have with paper tickets?

My PAYG Jojo card in Skane gives a 20% reduction on rail fares.

The only advantage that I can see for point-to-point tickets is that the ticket on departure experience can be made faster and more simple. Touch your card to the machine and go.

That is another advantage.

Does the guard have a better idea of formations than the TOC's operations department?

Definitely. Pretty well every day at Sheffield you can be sure some trains will be announced prior to arrival with first class at the wrong end. The guard will know which way round the train is (and would be able to alter things if there was an unscheduled reversal)

Up north in leeds/manchester every train has a guard who can check the whole train.

Not so. Many trains are formed of two units and the guard is not normally allowed to transfer between the two (as confirmed by staff on here). If there is only one unit there is every chance that it will be so rammed that they will not be able to get through then either.

 

[najaB]

One would think not (or rather that they would both have equal knowledge), however it is a fact that the PIS often shows incorrect formation information, and it was just one suggestion as to how that might be resolved.

What I was hinting at is that the TOCs already have this information and could implement it now if they wanted to. Apparently it's hit and miss if they do - I have seen PIS showing 'Train is in reverse formation' from time to time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I was hinting at is that the TOCs already have this information and could implement it now if they wanted to. Apparently it's hit and miss if they do - I have seen PIS showing 'Train is in reverse formation' from time to time.

Fair point. Do they, I wonder, have information like an EMU in a 12-car formation the wrong way round? I would like to see a proper quality of formation information, such as the position of First Class etc. (LM's 350s get reversed from time to time, I guess around Birmingham).

 

[najaB]

Fair point. Do they, I wonder, have information like an EMU in a 12-car formation the wrong way round?

They have it - they know what unit has done what route so it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. The question is how committed and what priority do they assign to informing customers? From what I've seen it's rare.