what was before network south east?

[ess]

was it just british rail or was each line named separately? how were trains marketed? what did the timetables look like (branding etc)?

 

[thefab444]

For a couple of years prior to the NSE brand being developed in the mid 80s, some services in the south east were branded as LSE (London & South Eastern), and some units, mostly 309s and 411s, received the infamous black/orange/grey "Jaffa cake" livery.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

was it just british rail or was each line named separately? how were trains marketed? what did the timetables look like (branding etc)?

From about 1967 to around mid 1980s, I think it was intercity, London & suburban and provincial-regional railways.

There was a big rail timetable for everywhere, then split up into localised sections.

I seem to recall that most local services were painted blue and intercity and some longer distance has a good blue & white livery, most recently seen again on the much lamented Wrtexham & Shropshire Trains.

I think I still have some rail maps from the mid 1970,s showing lines from Broad Street to Watford and Richmond which I travelled on, and also Holburn Viaduct Station amongst others.

 

[yorksrob]

For a couple of years prior to the NSE brand being developed in the mid 80s, some services in the south east were branded as LSE (London & South Eastern), and some units, mostly 309s and 411s, received the infamous black/orange/grey "Jaffa cake" livery.

I thought the Jaffa Cake livery looked quite attractive

 

[thefab444]

I agree, I like both NSE and Jaffa Cake liveries. I think some 419s got the Jaffa Cake livery as well?

 

[moggie]

Network South East was part of the BR sectorisation re-organisation. Prior to that services were run under the respective regional General Managers organisation. I think LSE was a marketing initiative and probably part of the lead up to sector re-organisation.

 

[NXEA!]

I agree, I like both NSE and Jaffa Cake liveries. I think some 419s got the Jaffa Cake livery as well?

Yes, I've seen a photo of one on Strawberry Hill depot in that livery. Also, I think around 8 Phase 1 CIG's were painted if I remember correctly.

 

[W-on-Sea]

There was limited - or effectively - no "regional" (or rather, sectoral - but in any case let us say "local" to avoid confusion) branding before the jaffa cake livery was rolled out (mostly on the "Essex Express" class 309s on the Clacton run). Indeed, right up until NSE was rolled out (1986) most timetable booklets, etc, in the London area were produced (and "branded" by - not that that terminology would have been used, or really apply) by the regions, although I think the exact approach varied from region to region.

I remember that Eastern Region had a timetable for services out of Liverpool and Fenchurch Street & Moorgate/Kings Cross; but I can't remember the exact approach taken by London Midland Region (Euston/St Pancras services), Western (Marylebone/Paddington) or Southern (everywhere else).

Reversing the neglect and shabbiness of a lot of LSE stations (and trains) was really one of the major achievements that NSE achieved - red lampposts everywhere, major repainting, cleaning, retiling, cleaning, smartening. That and introducing the "network card" and really promoting the services on different sides of London as an integrated network, which had only really been done in a rather half-hearted way before. (Of course this ties in, in Greater London, with the advent of fare zones, and the Travelcard and Capitalcard too)


It's notable that Chris Green (who had previously worked wonders with the development of the ScotRail identity under BR) had a big part in all that NSE did - before going on, post-privatization, to work for Virgin Railways. If my memory serves me correctly.

 

[Helvellyn]

was it just british rail or was each line named separately? how were trains marketed? what did the timetables look like (branding etc)?

It was British Rail, managed by the four of the BR regions - Southern, Western, London Midland and Eatern.

In the early 1980s BR was reorganised into Business Sectors - InterCity, London & South East, Provincial, Railfreight and Parcels. Initially the business sectors still relied on the regions for everything. It was until the early 1990s that full sectorisation was complete, i.e. every aspect of BR was allocated to a business sector (including route maintenance).

As has been said, the LSE 'Jaffa Cake' livery was applied to Class 309 and 421/7 4-Cig units as they were refurbished, as well as to the majority of the Class 411 4-Cep fleet as they were facelifted (even after the launch of NSE!). The 'Jaffa Cake' livery was for Express services. I'd heard there were plans for versions in Green and Blue for outer suburban and suburban services - a bit like SWT today has three liveries for Express (White), Outer Suburban (Blue) and Metro (Red) services - although the launch of NSE happened first.

 

[rail-britain]

It was British Rail, managed by the four of the BR regions - Southern, Western, London Midland and Eatern.

In the early 1980s BR was reorganised into Business Sectors - InterCity, London & South East, Provincial, Railfreight and Parcels

As I understood it London & SouthEast (LSE) was a subsidiary of Provincial
Hence Chris Greens original move from ScotRail to LSE
Something he was known not to like was the LSE livery, just too much like InterCity, and he wanted something distinctive and less drab
This was then expanded to include any and all inter-urban services to/from London and suburbs (excluding Gatwick Express)
Later the routes were organised into named lines, as the fleets and reliability became more stable

 

[Helvellyn]

It's notable that Chris Green (who had previously worked wonders with the development of the ScotRail identity under BR) had a big part in all that NSE did - before going on, post-privatization, to work for Virgin Railways. If my memory serves me correctly.

Green was brought down from ScotRail to given the LSE sector a big boost because of his success up North. Of course that led, as you said, to the rebranding of the sector as Network SouthEast and the launch of the red, white and blue colours twenty-five years ago!

Green left NSE at the very beginning of 1992 to head up InterCity, where he brought in concepts such as InterCity Shuttle on key routes (Euston-Birmingham, Paddington Bristol and the MML if I recall). He also introduced claret as the InterCity house colour (there was a short-lived attempt to replace the red stripe on the InterCity with this, but it looked too dull). If it wasn't for privatisation I think it would have been fascinating to see what Green would have done with InterCity - West Coast modernisation with IC250s (Class 93 locomotives and Mk 5 coaching stock); cascades of the Mark 3 stock to Anglia and CrossCountry and the full refurbishment of the existing InterCity fleet (sadly only two prototype HST vehicles were done).

At Privatisation Green went back to ScotRail, but didn't stay long after NatEx took over. He was then out of the rail industry for a few years before being brought back by Virgin Trains, who were suffering really bad press. Unfortunately this was too late for Green to really influence the design of the Pendolinos or Voyagers - I believe he is on record as saying the interiors would have been much different if possible (i.e. buffets not shops, more luggage space, no disabled loos in the centre vehicles of Voyagers).

It's not for nothing that Chris Green is often referred to as the best Chairman BR never had. In five years at NSE he really turned round the fortunes of the London & South East area, and as I said, what he could have achieved with InterCity would likely have been equally astonishing.
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As I understood it London & SouthEast (LSE) was a subsidiary of Provincial
Hence Chris Greens original move from ScotRail to LSE
Something he was known not to like was the LSE livery, just too much like InterCity, and he wanted something distinctive and less drab
This was then expanded to include any and all inter-urban services to/from London and suburbs (excluding Gatwick Express)
Later the routes were organised into named lines, as the fleets and reliability became more stable

LSE and Provincial were separate. ScotRail had been created as a brand by Green before the sectors really came into being.

The routes that LSE had had also been decided before Green came along, at the time when the Sector was established. Hence why Gatwick Express, which was seen as a high-profile flagship service went to InterCity, although by the late 1980s it would have equally sat well with Network SouthEast. Interestingly, Waterloo-Bournemouth services were considered for allocation to InterCity when LSE was set-up (the route is similar in length to Liverpool Street-Norwich) but I believe the age of the stock was a deciding factor against, Mark 1 derived 4-Reps and 4-TCs not fitting with the InterCity image of air-conditioned trains. The fact that NSE then ordered and introduced the Wessex Electrics to replace these, developing the Mark 3 to its ultimate level under BR, was somewhat ironic!

 

[allticketspls]

There is an excellent interview with Chris Green in the latest issue of RAIL Magazine to commemorate 25 years of NSE.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The notion of Intercity, LSE and Provincial came from the 1968 Railway Act under Barbara Castle.
Intercity was supposed to be profitable, LSE was considered essential to keep London moving, although subsidised, and Other Provincial Services (OPS) were the rest and required heavy subsidy.

BR then lined up its operations to fit these 3 categories and eventually sectorised but only ditched the "Regions" in 1993 just before the breakup.

The split is still pretty valid today, though I would say the "LSE" TOCs have come up the pecking order compared to those in the other two, because their subsidy profile has improved.

As I recall, in the mid-seventies all BR stock was allover "rail blue", with a light grey window surround for Intercity trains (as was used on the Cargo-D vehicles for Wrexham & Shropshire for most of its life).
No branding was used at all, except for the word "Pullman" on a few business trains.
I think the first break with the blue/grey tradition was the APT livery, which was later adopted by InterCity.

 

[Greenback]

It was rail blue and grey for most trains. Thee xceptions were the suburban services which were all blue.

We had relatives in South London which we visited frequently when I was small. I'm sure I can remember some Southern trains in the late 1960's and early 1970's that were still green!

 

[yorksrob]

There is an excellent interview with Chris Green in the latest issue of RAIL Magazine to commemorate 25 years of NSE.

Yes, I read that. I was quite surprised when the interviewer stated that "everything else ( in addition to the class 455's and Networkers) with the exception of some 20 year old trains on the Southern and in the National Express East Anglia fleet were ordered in the post privatisation era and date from 1998 onwards"

This would seem to rule out pretty much everything on First Capital Connect (with the exception of some Electrostars), various bins on London Midland and Turbo's on Chiltern and First Great Western.

Unless a lot has changed on NSE without me noticing, this would seem to be quite an editorial malfunction.

 

[thefab444]

Turbos are merely a type of Networker. The 20 year old trains "on the Southern" are almost certainly the Class 319s.

 

[yorksrob]

Turbos are merely a type of Networker. The 20 year old trains "on the Southern" are almost certainly the Class 319s.

As well as the 159's and Wessex Electrics.

 

[Philip Elliott]

It was British Rail, managed by the four of the BR regions - Southern, Western, London Midland and Eatern

There were never four BR regions - initially there were six, the four above plus Scottish & North Eastern but the north eastern was latterly re-incorporated into the former LNER zone.

 

[tbtc]

Sorry to go off topic, but I think the "Jaffa Cake" livery would really suit modern units (where there are big "blocks" of window that can disrupt some liveries) - I can't remember seeing it discussed before on here (?) but I think it looks quite modern

 

[sprinterguy]

Sorry to go off topic, but I think the "Jaffa Cake" livery would really suit modern units (where there are big "blocks" of window that can disrupt some liveries) - I can't remember seeing it discussed before on here (?) but I think it looks quite modern

Continuing the off topic drift, I am in full agreement with you. I quite like "Jaffa Cake" livery as well, and it seems to be largely forgotten when it comes to livery discussions on this forum; probably because it was so short lived before it was consumed by the bold, bright stripes of Network Southeast that became so widely known.

Now you mention it, there's a photoshopped image of a "Jaffa Cake" liveried 375 out there on the internet somewhere, and it does look quite awesome.

EDIT: I've found the image, it's one of Paul Burkitt-Grays' creations and has featured on this site before I think, but the links are now invalid, so it can be found here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=72162

 

[TUC]

There is an interview with Chris Green on the creation of Network South East in the current issue of Rail magazine.

 

[Welshman]

Before all this, when Adam were nobbut a lad, there was just British Railways Southern Region, and everything except the steam engines in Malachite green.

 

[Hydro]

EDIT: I've found the image, it's one of Paul Burkitt-Grays' creations and has featured on this site before I think, but the links are now invalid, so it can be found here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=72162

The same site had a similar, if not the same, image in NSE. It really suited the Electrostar.

 

[Zoe]

BR then lined up its operations to fit these 3 categories and eventually sectorised but only ditched the "Regions" in 1993 just before the breakup.

The regions were abolished in 1992. A verticaly integrated railway was created only to be abolished just 2 years later.

 

[yorksrob]

As has been said, the LSE 'Jaffa Cake' livery was applied to Class 309 and 421/7 4-Cig units as they were refurbished, as well as to the majority of the Class 411 4-Cep fleet as they were facelifted (even after the launch of NSE!). The 'Jaffa Cake' livery was for Express services. I'd heard there were plans for versions in Green and Blue for outer suburban and suburban services - a bit like SWT today has three liveries for Express (White), Outer Suburban (Blue) and Metro (Red) services - although the launch of NSE happened first.

It's interesting to speculate on whether we might have still ended up with quite a colourful railway in the South East even if Network SouthEast had never happenned. The three livery scheme would have been difficult to police on the Southern at any rate as the outer suburban units were frequently coupled up with the express ones. I'm also guessing that there would have been a lot more of the stripey red blue and green uplolstery which made an appearance at the time rather than the blue zig zag.

I'm glad that Jaffa Cake at least did manage to make it off the drawing board, albeit briefly.

**Additional**

Some of the MLV's also carried it - in some cases until quite a while after it had dissappeared from everything else if memory serves.

 

[swt_passenger]

There were never four BR regions - initially there were six, the four above plus Scottish & North Eastern but the north eastern was latterly re-incorporated into the former LNER zone.

I think the point of the earlier post was that there were four of the then regions separately involved in running their own respective parts of the London and SE commuter flows, ie it wasn't considered as a Network.

This is touched on in the Chris Green interview in the current Rail mag.