What were the duties of a station pilot?

[Bittern]

I've actually wondered this for a while. I assume one of such duties was shunting to make up a train or something.

 

[CarterUSM]

As far as I am aware, and I may stand corrected of course, is that this was not a 'role' as such, it was an engine that shunted stock about at a station.

 

[ungreat]

Correct..having done this duty on several occasions.

Depending on where you were based,you would be remashalling stock,shunts with mail trains,basically move what was needed to be moved.

 

[royaloak]

Attaching/ detaching coaches, making up and shunting parcels/ newspaper trains.

Yes these things really used to take place

 

[Bittern]

Such a shame they don't now. Guess there's no need for it with all these multiple units.

 

[ungreat]

Thats progress..used to love sitting on the 08 at Leicester with the tea can on the stove waiting for the next move.You could watch the night life,the sky,trains coming and going..happy days

 

[4SRKT]

The pilot at York was kept pretty busy IIRR. I used to spend hours down at the old cattle docks by Holgate Junction, and it was frequently to be seen coming down from its siding where platform 1 had been to get across the points to another part of the station. Goodness knows what it was doing because the few loco-hauled trains that terminated at York tended to do so in platforms 15 and 16 (now 10 and 11), so didn't need to be shunt released (this is after the end of deltics on the Kings Cross > York short workings that IIRR used the bay platforms 10 and 11, now 6 and 7). The exception to this was the loco-hauled Scarborough shorts which ran out of platforms 6 or 7 (Scarborough facing bays, now platform 2 only) and the 08 released the 31 before propelling the stock back.

Which raises the question, if it was OK for the 08 to propel a rake of stock into a platform, why couldn't the 31 propel the rake out in the first place? In other words, what was the point of shunt releasing?

 

[gordonthemoron]

you still get loads of shunt moving at Munich Hauptbahnhof as not all trains are units or have driving trailers. The Italian & Swiss trains don't have driving trailers, nor do the night trains. Alex and some of the regional sets are the same, Alex trains are also frequently lengthened/shortened

 

[Saltleyman]

The "West" pilot at Birmingham New Street was used as a "standby " loco to replace "failed" or "failing/poor steaming" locos heading West from B'ham towards Bristol.Bath and South Wales,it was also used as a "banker" between New Street and Church Road Jcn. on the "West Suburban lines" if required.It was also used for "shunting" parcels/mail vans from one train to another,also working Empty stock to/from Saltley Carriage Sidings.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Which raises the question, if it was OK for the 08 to propel a rake of stock into a platform, why couldn't the 31 propel the rake out in the first place? In other words, what was the point of shunt releasing?

Because you never propel a train with passengers on.

 

[Tomnick]

It wouldn't have passengers on in that situation (i.e. propelling out of the platform to allow the loco to run round, after the passengers had all alighted). To answer the original question (without particularly knowing the layout at the time!), would the 31 have been able to run round once it had propelled out? If not, then you'd have to release the stock with something else, otherwise the loco wouldn't be able to run round to propel back in!

 

[sykarost]

I remember being on the 'West pilot' one evening when we had been 'parked' in the 'Fish Dock' right by the gates that lead out into Station Street. Nothing much was expected to happen so my mate said I could go to the 'News Theatre' (now the Electric Cinema) across the street for an hour while he had a kip. I got in for nothing so I could not complain when suddenly half way through the programme a message appeared on the screen saying " would the fireman on the west pilot return to his engine NOW"!! As I got up to leave (in the dark) everyone started cheering!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The "West" pilot at Birmingham New Street was used as a "standby " loco to replace "failed" or "failing/poor steaming" locos heading West from B'ham towards Bristol.Bath and South Wales,it was also used as a "banker" between New Street and Church Road Jcn. on the "West Suburban lines" if required.It was also used for "shunting" parcels/mail vans from one train to another,also working Empty stock to/from Saltley Carriage Sidings.

Can you jog my memory Saltleyman? I'm trying to recall if the North West side of New Street had a similar 'Pilot Engine' or did we ever bank trains through Monument Lane Tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a Tank Engine shunting on the 'other side' but it would of been of little use to take over/double head a failed WCML express.....At least we generally had a 'Black 5' & were up for anything or anywhere!! Cheers.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Here's one of the hundred or more shunters found on the North Eastern Railway in between 1900 and sometime into the '60s.

They'd spend all day in steam ready for the next movement at most stations and yards.

 

[caliwag]

Perth, in the early 60s, had South end and North end pilots, positioning stock, adding and detaching restaurant cars and releasing locos from bay platforms. Glasgow to Inverness trains sometimes split at Perth, sending a stopper via Forres...hence the restaurant car movements.
As the Inverness and Aberdeen, to the South, trains used through platforms with double crossovers half-way along their length, pilots would not be involved, the extra train engine(s) were already in place. Some fascinating and complex movements around mid-day as I recall.
Similar to the use of Brits and hoovers in the newspaper train thread, Perth had a habit of using Anglo-Scottish locos on lay-overs. Sometimes despatched to Dundee or Aberdeen on a local or, on one memorable occasion as the Perth South end pilot...a Coronation pushing a restaurant car and short rakes of suburban coaches around. Doubt if WJV Anderson was in place to snap that!

 

[Ploughman]

Because you never propel a train with passengers on.

Then how did the Scarborough - Whitby service operate?
Out of Scarborough to Falsgrave in reverse then forward into the tunnel at the back of the box and on to Whitby.

 

[9K43]

The pilot at York was kept pretty busy IIRR. I used to spend hours down at the old cattle docks by Holgate Junction, and it was frequently to be seen coming down from its siding where platform 1 had been to get across the points to another part of the station. Goodness knows what it was doing because the few loco-hauled trains that terminated at York tended to do so in platforms 15 and 16 (now 10 and 11), so didn't need to be shunt released (this is after the end of deltics on the Kings Cross > York short workings that IIRR used the bay platforms 10 and 11, now 6 and 7). The exception to this was the loco-hauled Scarborough shorts which ran out of platforms 6 or 7 (Scarborough facing bays, now platform 2 only) and the 08 released the 31 before propelling the stock back.

Which raises the question, if it was OK for the 08 to propel a rake of stock into a platform, why couldn't the 31 propel the rake out in the first place? In other words, what was the point of shunt releasing?

I have shunted in and out of Holgate many times with coaching stock.
When shunting with CS I was always told to get all the passengers out of the train for this move.
We at EWS were at York Station on regular basis with CS.arriving from the south awaiting steam loco's either hooking on or off.
The main loco was Green Arrow from/to the NRM.
The rule book requires the PIC of these movements to ride on a leading suitable vehicle or control the propeling movement from a place of safety on the ground.
As the Holgate area is very busy. I always rode on the leading coach.
I always took 2 back to back radios one for me and 1 for the driver. This made life much safer and easier when doing this shunt.
Sometimes York Box would not allow you to propel into Holgate , so you had to RR with the engine. This could put a good hour onto the move.
Before any move could be undertaken, the guard and the driver of the train came to a clear understanding of what each were going to do, and stuck to it.
If the driver lost the signal from the radio the rule book requires him to stop the movement.
The speed of this movement should not exceed 5mph.

 

[matt]

Because you never propel a train with passengers on.

I have been propelled around Chester triangle a few years ago so you can propel with passengers.

 

[Saltleyman]

Because you never propel a train with passengers on.

There were to my knowledge at least two places where propelling of occupied passenger stock was allowed,Sheffield Midland where a portion of the "Devonian" from Newcastle was attached to the Bradford/Leeds portion of the train.
And Birmingham New Street where two "portions" of the "Pines Express" were joined together,without the passengers having to "dis-embark".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I remember being on the 'West pilot' one evening when we had been 'parked' in the 'Fish Dock' right by the gates that lead out into Station Street. Nothing much was expected to happen so my mate said I could go to the 'News Theatre' (now the Electric Cinema) across the street for an hour while he had a kip. I got in for nothing so I could not complain when suddenly half way through the programme a message appeared on the screen saying " would the fireman on the west pilot return to his engine NOW"!! As I got up to leave (in the dark) everyone started cheering!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Can you jog my memory Saltleyman? I'm trying to recall if the North West side of New Street had a similar 'Pilot Engine' or did we ever bank trains through Monument Lane Tunnel. I seem to recall seeing a Tank Engine shunting on the 'other side' but it would of been of little use to take over/double head a failed WCML express.....At least we generally had a 'Black 5' & were up for anything or anywhere!! Cheers.

I think that at one time there may have been a "pilot" on the "North-West" side of New Street,however I don't think it would have been used for "banking" trains out of the station,the gradient on the "North-West" side was fairly steep but "straight",whereas on the "Midland side it was a lot steeper in places and severely "curved" through the tunnels to Five Ways making it more difficult.

 

[9K43]

I have been propelled around Chester triangle a few years ago so you can propel with passengers.

It maybe that this move is allowed in the Sectional Appendix for that location.
Or someone did it off thier own bat.

 

[matt]

It maybe that this move is allowed in the Sectional Appendix for that location.
Or someone did it off thier own bat.

Not sure about the sectional appendix but it was this charter http://uksteam.info/tours/t07/t1215c.htm

 

[Saltleyman]

Because you never propel a train with passengers on.

Here's a picture of a move at Sheffield Midland( wich happened everyday) where trains were re-marshalled complete with passengers aboard.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I assume that would be authorised by some kind of local instruction then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've had a look at TW1 section 13 - propelling, and the look of it is that you can propel if authorised by the sectional appendix, if absolutely necessary and over the shortest distance possible. So it certainly isn't encouraged.

 

[CarterUSM]

Here's a picture of a move at Sheffield Midland( wich happened everyday) where trains were re-marshalled complete with passengers aboard.

The chaps in the foreground really should have some hi-vis clothing on.

 

[Bittern]

The chaps in the foreground really should have some hi-vis clothing on.

 

[4SRKT]

It wouldn't have passengers on in that situation (i.e. propelling out of the platform to allow the loco to run round, after the passengers had all alighted). To answer the original question (without particularly knowing the layout at the time!), would the 31 have been able to run round once it had propelled out? If not, then you'd have to release the stock with something else, otherwise the loco wouldn't be able to run round to propel back in!

Doh! Of course this is the reason. The 31 would have had to run up the Scarborough line wrong line for about a mile to the junction for the Foss Islands branch and then work back, so obviously a shunt release was needed. Thx.

Regarding propelling stock with passengers on board, I've been propelled loads of times on Edinburgh portions of southbound WCML workings in the days before Carstairs > Edinburgh was electrified. The duff used to pull right through the station from Edinburgh, facing toward Glasgow, then propel the coaches onto the rear of waiting electric-hauled rake.

Likewise, northbound Far North line trains had the Wick portion at the back. The Wick coaches were detached in the loop short of the trailing junction with the Thurso branch, and the train engine hauled the Thurso portion forward into the platform. It then propelled the coaches onto the branch engine, which was waiting on the branch itself. The Wick engine then pulled back into the platform before reversing to pick up the Wick portion, which it in its turn drew into the platform.

OK, so it's a different country, but Killarney station in Ireland is the terminus of a very short branch off the Tralee line. All trains go through to Tralee, so a Tralee bound train has to set back across the junction points before proceeding. In the other direction, a Mallow bound train has to reverse into the station. Until very recently all trains were loco-hauled.

Perhaps best of all were through trains from Limerick to Rosslare Harbour, which ran into Limerick Junction around the back of the station building into a headshunt before setting back into the 'Waterford bay'. This bay only led into the headshunt, which was alongside the Cork main line and not even remotely in the direction of Waterford, so everything had to reverse in or out of it. The whole move was: loco hauls stock from Limerick into headshunt; loco propels stock into platform; loco hauls stock from platform into headshunt; loco propels stock for over quarter of a mile back up the Limerick branch; loco hauls stock over the main line on a flat crossing. This is a lot of reversing with passengers on board (and on board wooden bodied coaches on the worst track I've ever seen to boot!).

 

[royaloak]

How do the sleeper portions combine if no propelling (with passengers on-board) is allowed?

 

[sykarost]

There were to my knowledge at least two places where propelling of occupied passenger stock was allowed,Sheffield Midland where a portion of the "Devonian" from Newcastle was attached to the Bradford/Leeds portion of the train.
And Birmingham New Street where two "portions" of the "Pines Express" were joined together,without the passengers having to "dis-embark".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think that at one time there may have been a "pilot" on the "North-West" side of New Street,however I don't think it would have been used for "banking" trains out of the station,the gradient on the "North-West" side was fairly steep but "straight",whereas on the "Midland side it was a lot steeper in places and severely "curved" through the tunnels to Five Ways making it more difficult.

Many thanks, I thought that was the case. Yes those curves made you dizzy, I always enjoyed leaving Suffolk Street tunnels & seeing the greenery & canal at Church Road. What an instant transition even more rewarding on a nice sunny day eh!!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Not related to the discussion - but just come across this pic of one of the pilots at Waverley in May 1969 here.
(With a Deltic in background and awful corrugated plastic panels at the end of the canopy.)

 

[TomBoyRacer]

I'd be interested to know more about pilot movements at York for a historical project I'm doing.

I know that platform 1 was still used for the Kings Cross Semi fasts as recently as 1980. Not sure if the track into that platform survived as far as resignalling in 1989.

I always assumed that the reason for shunt release was so that the incoming loco could nip off to the servicing point rather than potentially get stuck awaiting a path to propel from one area of the station to another, especially important if the loco was to work the return.

 

[4SRKT]

I'd be interested to know more about pilot movements at York for a historical project I'm doing.

I know that platform 1 was still used for the Kings Cross Semi fasts as recently as 1980. Not sure if the track into that platform survived as far as resignalling in 1989.

I always assumed that the reason for shunt release was so that the incoming loco could nip off to the servicing point rather than potentially get stuck awaiting a path to propel from one area of the station to another, especially important if the loco was to work the return.

Extensive descriptions of railway operations in York in the 1970s and 80s this thread (largely by me!):

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34004