What would railways be like today if privatisation had not occurred?

[MidlandMainlie]

Following the debates on privatisation vs nationalisation in the Milliband and re-nationalisation thread it got me wondering what would the national rail network look like today if privatisation had not started 20 years ago and BR was still around today. *

My thoughts:-

• There would have been a gradual program of electrification following on from the ECML, with the GWML and MML having been wired by now.

• The HST's from these routes would have been cascaded to Cross Country network and secondary routes with new build locomotive hauled stock derived from the Intercity 250 project running on the GWML and possibly ECML (the 225 being cascaded to the MML).

• This means that no Pendolino's, Voyagers, Meridians or Adelantes would have been built.

Anyone have any other thoughts on what else would have happened.?

* This isn't meant to be a debate about the merits of privatisation vs nationalisation, that been done to death in other threads. This is just a what if things had been different exercise.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I doubt much would have been spent on the railways at all

 

[Greenback]

This just to start a discussion off, but how likely would the following have been if the railways hadn't been privatised?

Operation Princess
The Hatfield accident
Redoubling in Cornwall
Improvements to the Chiltern lines
Introduction of the Routeing Guide

 

[gordonthemoron]

Railtrack were shocking at maintenance, but BR wasn't pure as the driven snow, c.f. little used branch lines with minimal maintenance (e.g. Whitby)

 

[Greenback]

OK, but in view of the thread title, what do you think the railway would be like now if BR had not been privatised?

 

[hassaanhc]

More Networkers in the London area?

 

[43074]

We probably wouldn't have had diesel outposts in the ex-NSE area such as the Ashford - Hastings and Uckfield to Oxted lines (although excluding the Salisbury line perhaps?); NSE was proposing to electrify these but privatisation put a stop to it.

Thameslink 2000 () & Crossrail would have happened by now.

There would probably have been a National Railcard by now, BR was very proactive in that department, reflected in the fact that the ''Two Together'' Railcard is the first new railcard since BR finished.

Hatfield wouldn't have happened and InterCity routes probably wouldn't have been so frequent, although I'd have thought most would have been electrified by now.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Has the Norwich-Liverpool Street service changed much since privatisation?

 

[steamybrian]

It depends how much money the Government was prepared to spend.
In the 1980s BR were starved of investment leading to a number of station/line closures and stations being neglected.
In the early 1990s run up to privatisation there was money available to show a good picture for private companies.
Railtrack was inefficient and wasted too much money. Because track maintenance was privatised the companies that took over did not have the experience of trackwork.
Internally there was a lot of inexperience staff.
The film "The Navigators" illustrated this 100%
... I worked many years for BR and thoroughly enjoyed it as one big family..
....1994 came, it was broken up, new inexperienced staff came in with their ideas and we will not allowed to discuss these with them.......... so I left...

Finally-If BR was existing then tickets would be more inter-available between trains and services.

 

[43074]

Has the Norwich-Liverpool Street service changed much since privatisation?

A little, they're more frequent (having been increased to half hourly by Anglia Railways in 1998) and they have relatively ''newer'' trains, the Class 90s+Mark 3s which replaced the 86s+Mark 2s in 2004. On the other hand, they no longer offer a Restuarant service which was at 22 per day at one time and the journey times are no quicker than they were.

 

[Mugby]

On the one hand, we probably wouldn't have had so many clockface timetables

But on the other hand, tickets would have been valid on any train on a particular route.

 

[Greenback]

A little, they're more frequent (having been increased to half hourly by Anglia Railways in 1998) and they have relatively ''newer'' trains, the Class 90s+Mark 3s which replaced the 86s+Mark 2s in 2004. On the other hand, they no longer offer a Restuarant service which was at 22 per day at one time and the journey times are no quicker than they were.

I used to travel to Norwich regularly in the 1990's and as I recall, BR were gradually moving towards a full half hourly service. Maybe Anglia hastened things a bit, though. No doubt BR would have cascaded the 90's as soon as they became available.

 

[Drsatan]

If Privatisation had never happened the 411s, 421s and 423s (3rd rail EMUs) would have been replaced by the late 1990s by the classes 371, 381 and 471. Depending on availability of funding, the Southampton to Salisbury line, the Oxted branch, and the Marshlink line would have been electrified by then.


It would have been interesting to see what would have happened to XC services. MK2 coaches on XC services might have been replaced by MK3s displaced from the WCML when the WCML was completed, and either the 47s would have been re-engined or they would have been replaced outright by new diesel locomotives. Alternatively, BR might have ordered a long distance DMU for such services - say either a lengthened 158 with a micro-buffet or a new design outright.

 

[Bill Stanier]

I do wonder why the Mk3s off WCML were not refurbished (retention toilets, aircon that works, auto-doors) and cascaded to X-Country. Those Voyagers are horrid!

 

[Drsatan]

I do wonder why the Mk3s off WCML were not refurbished (retention toilets, aircon that works, auto-doors) and cascaded to X-Country. Those Voyagers are horrid!

I understand one of the options for Operation Princess were locomotives with one driving cab (the hypothetical class 68) hauling MK3 coaches with new or cascaded DVTs. However, Branson wanted tilting trains and ordered the Voyagers instead (even though the majority of the fleet has no tilting capacity).

The maximum Voyager length is 5 cars because the then west-facing bay at Reading could only accommodate 5 car trains, and Princess hinged on the ability to use that bay for reversing...

 

[455driver]

We would probably still have a train building industry of our own!

Plus all the associated parts suppliers etc.

 

[Steve childs]

The government would be creaming the profits and claiming expenses and occupying all the first class for themselves.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I do wonder why the Mk3s off WCML were not refurbished (retention toilets, aircon that works, auto-doors) and cascaded to X-Country. Those Voyagers are horrid!

Virgin wanted to keep the HSTs, with a shorter formation and rebranded as "Challenger", but the SRA insisted that these trains move to other operators. That was probably the right choice, given that GNER were giving serious consideration to re-engineering the MkIII sleepers as HST carriages due to overcrowding.

We would probably still have a train building industry of our own!

Probably!

I don't think a great deal would have changed if BR still existed. Sectorisation saw many of the changes that the privatised TOCs carried on. NSE was replacing all the stock and increasing frequencies, along with shiny refurbished stations. Regional Railways had brought in the 158 train, which was pretty revolutionary at the time. Intercity had a coherent marketing strategy, was increasing frequencies, and had brought in heavily discounted off-peak tickets such as Apex. Container freight and heavy haul freight was separated, with new locomotives for both divisions.

I don't think the privatised industry is rubbish and BR was fantastic. I think that BR did a decent job, and the private industry does a decent job. It's just that a decent job doesn't cut the mustard when the fat cat TOCs are sucking hundreds of millions out of the system in profits.

 

[Yew]

Dont forget also, that the railways would be more isolated from politics, so decisions would be less focused an getting more votes in marginal seats (eg; FGW HST first to standard conversions to appease reading commuters)

 

[Bill Stanier]

DOnt forget also, that the railways would be mor eisolated from politics, so decisions would be less focused an getting more votes in marginal seats (eg; FGW HST first to standard conversions to appease reading commuters)

Don't think so. You must be aware how the single-track Heart of Wales line survived the Beeching cuts?

"You can't close that Minister; it serves five marginal constituencies"!

 

[Bald Rick]

We'd have had a lot more system wide strikes, and everyone in the industry would be paid less.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm guessing that the Southern Region might still offer first class accommodation worthy of the name.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Don't think so. You must be aware how the single-track Heart of Wales line survived the Beeching cuts?

"You can't close that Minister; it serves five marginal constituencies"!

Famous for its unique one off status and anyway it was the Central Wales line then and the what would now be the really useful southern section from Pontardulais into Swansea was closed.

 

[Carlisle]

We'd have had a lot more system wide strikes, and everyone in the industry would be paid less.

I may be wrong but I worked for BR from the end of 1989 til 96 and I don't recall a total national shutdown due to a strike during that time until fairly soon after Railtrack took over when the signalmen held several strikes pretty much shutting most of the system down for about 24 hours each time

 

[12CSVT]

Any new build of locomotive from the late 1990s onwards are more likely to have been constructed in Crewe, Doncaster or Loughborough instead of Ontario (Canada), Valencia or Pennsylvania.

Prices of standard open single and return tickets wouldn't have gone through the roof.

Signalling and track maintenance staff (ie anybody whose employment transferred to Railtrack) wouldn't have lost their travel benefits.

All those class 60s and class 90s which have been rotting away at Toton and Crewe for donkeys years would still be on the main line hauling trains.

 

[TheJRB]

It's fascinating to observe the "rose coloured spectacles" effect going on here. Whilst I am too young to remember pre-privatisation, I've certainly seen plenty of evidence which suggests that most stations are a heck of a lot cleaner and more presentable than they were twenty years ago (just take a look at the old Royal Scot cab ride and notice how much better stations like Hemel Hempstead and especially Stafford look).

Would the vast improvements on the North London Line and opening of the East London Line have happened? Would the success we see today have happened without the incentives that are in play with the privatised London Overground? Fine, nobody can say it definitely wouldn't have, yet at the same time the state of stations on that line was appalling (even post-privatisation).

On the other hand, the attempted privatisation of London Underground and the subsequent reversal shows what good work can be done by a nationalised railway (although it highlights how megalomaniac politicians can have greater influence!).

To almost all intents and purposes, the railways are still pretty much nationalised anyway. Service level and rolling stock is still controlled by the government and those two things are the aspects that actually matter to the public.

Would advance fares have existed under a modern day BR? Would there be "meet the managers" events? Would the appearance of stations and trains be as important to an entity not so easily able to be held to account?

 

[DownSouth]

Any new build of locomotive from the late 1990s onwards are more likely to have been constructed in Crewe, Doncaster or Loughborough instead of Ontario (Canada), Valencia or Pennsylvania.

But EMD would still have worked hard to follow up the success of the Class 59, the only difference probably being a partnership to allow the bodies and assembly to be done in Britain. The tipping point for British heavy industry was in the 1980's, well before the demise of BR began.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's fascinating to observe the "rose coloured spectacles" effect going on here. Whilst I am too young to remember pre-privatisation, I've certainly seen plenty of evidence which suggests that most stations are a heck of a lot cleaner and more presentable than they were twenty years ago (just take a look at the old Royal Scot cab ride and notice how much better stations like Hemel Hempstead and especially Stafford look).

Would the vast improvements on the North London Line and opening of the East London Line have happened? Would the success we see today have happened without the incentives that are in play with the privatised London Overground? Fine, nobody can say it definitely wouldn't have, yet at the same time the state of stations on that line was appalling (even post-privatisation).

On the other hand, the attempted privatisation of London Underground and the subsequent reversal shows what good work can be done by a nationalised railway (although it highlights how megalomaniac politicians can have greater influence!).

To almost all intents and purposes, the railways are still pretty much nationalised anyway. Service level and rolling stock is still controlled by the government and those two things are the aspects that actually matter to the public.

Would advance fares have existed under a modern day BR? Would there be "meet the managers" events? Would the appearance of stations and trains be as important to an entity not so easily able to be held to account?

Two points BR introduced advanced purchase, the internet technology which is used these days to sell them simply did not exist then there's no reason to assume BR would not have had its own website with one point of contact rather than national rail separate And separate TOC one sets.

BR was active in setting up my local RUG and engaging with it and had Managers who had worked on our line and knew the area. Nowadays it's suits and faces in Cardiff who don't know the Cambrian and view RUG engagement as a chore to be perhaps be avoided.

 

[aleph_0]

Would the vast improvements on the North London Line and opening of the East London Line have happened? Would the success we see today have happened without the incentives that are in play with the privatised London Overground? Fine, nobody can say it definitely wouldn't have, yet at the same time the state of stations on that line was appalling (even post-privatisation).

I, seriously, can't tell if this is satire.

The North London Line service under the previous, privatized, Silverlink Metro franchise, for 10 years, wasn't very good.

In 2007, TfL took over, and awarded the concession for London Overground to LOROL. Essentially, LOROL are just paid to manage the thing. TfL takes the revenue risk, and specify trains, train frequency and performance criteria, on which LOROL is rewarded. TfL are in charge of planning and funding improvements.

London Overground is a very weak form of privatization - if anything, the 2007 change was a strong shift towards nationalisation on the privatization-nationalisation spectrum.

The push for improvement has come from a combination of changing in public policy, and more powers of the GLA/Mayor to do things/argue London's case, and an increase in public money, rather than any private incentives. It's highly likely a similar situation would have happened if the NLL was under BR.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Any new build of locomotive from the late 1990s onwards are more likely to have been constructed in Crewe, Doncaster or Loughborough instead of Ontario (Canada), Valencia or Pennsylvania.

With all the associated problems that come with short-production-run in house designs. The railfreight companies in particular applied pragmatic thinking when they went shopping for new motive power.

They could commission a short production run of completely untried locos from home suppliers and suffer all the teething troubles and design shortfalls that would entail (like most BR diesels, built in house or bought as unique designs from outside manufacturers), or they could look at what was already built and successfully working in large numbers around the world, and order something based on that technology (like the class 66, or the Pendolino).

Some on here have heralded BR for doing everything in house, but this scenario is a good illustration of why that is not a good thing. If you wanted a fleet of, say 100 cars that had to be available quickly and had to be reliable would you make them yourself or would you go down to the local Ford dealer and broker a deal?

If you're running a business (and running a railway is just that, something BR forgot more often than not) you ensure your investment goes into proven technology, not take a punt on something home made.