When is the expiry of a ticket's validity?

[Mcr Warrior]

With respect to an Off Peak Return ticket?

Query relates to obtaining a refund on unused tickets.

(NRCoC Condition 26(b) mentions a deadline of "no later than 28 days after the expiry of the ticket's validity", so the question is, how is this determined?)

 

[AlterEgo]

It's 28 days from the expiry of the RTN portion of the ticket.

If the RTN portion was valid up to and including 01 JLY, the clock starts ticking on 02 JLY and the 28 days are up on 30 JLY. 30 JLY is the last day you can claim a refund as per T and Cs.

Have you had problems?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Yes. According to Southern, they only give a refund within 28 days of issue.

This seems less passenger-friendly than the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

(Condition 3.3 of Southern's Passengers' Charter refers).

http://www.southernrailway.com/download/3139.5/passengers-charter/

 

[John @ home]

If the RTN portion was valid up to and including 01 JLY, the clock starts ticking on 02 JLY and the 28 days are up on 30 JLY. 30 JLY is the last day you can claim a refund as per T and Cs.

29 July is the last day, I think. 2 July is day 1, so 29 July is day 28.

 

[rail-britain]

Yes. According to Southern, they only give a refund within 28 days of issue.

Be persistent with them, refer them to the NCoRC, don't quote specific sections
Advise them you want a refund to be processed and paid within 28 days, if they already have the ticket and claim form

I make quite a few refunds with ScotRail, and never had any issues
Cheque arrives about 10 business days after submitting the form and tickets into the station (plus asking for a receipt)
Before submitting, I copy both the original tickets and form

 

[jopsuk]

That's definitely ridiculous- an open return is valid 1 month isn't it? By what you say Southern are saying, if you used the ticket in the last couple of days of validity and experienced a refund-worty delay, you'd be unable to claim.

 

[AlterEgo]

29 July is the last day, I think. 2 July is day 1, so 29 July is day 28.

You are, of course, correct. Whoops.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes. According to Southern, they only give a refund within 28 days of issue.

This seems less passenger-friendly than the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Bull.

The NRCoC takes precedence. They cannot ignore it at will. You're entitled to a refund up to 28 days from expiry.

Fight it!

 

[Username]

Surely for an off peak return ticket there are two expiry dates to be considered: the outward portion expires on the date of issue and the return portion expires after a calendar month.

Therefore if someone was seeking a refund for the entire ticket value (outward and return) the company would consider the date of issue as the date of expiry, as that was the date the outward portion expired.

If someone was seeking a refund for the value of an unused return portion only, then the only expiry date to consider would be that of the return (one calendar month from issue).

Of course if someone has used the outward portion and is merely seeking a refund of the unused return, it's probably not going to be worth much anyway once the company deducts the charge for the outward travel and administration fees are factored in.

No?

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely for an off peak return ticket there are two expiry dates to be considered: the outward portion expires on the date of issue and the return portion expires after a calendar month.

Therefore if someone was seeking a refund for the entire ticket value (outward and return) the company would consider the date of issue as the date of expiry, as that was the date the outward portion expired.

If someone was seeking a refund for the value of an unused return portion only, then the only expiry date to consider would be that of the return (one calendar month from issue).

Of course if someone has used the outward portion and is merely seeking a refund of the unused return, it's probably not going to be worth much anyway once the company deducts the charge for the outward travel and administration fees are factored in.

No?

No.

As per the Terms and Conditions, you can only gain a refund on a wholly unused Off Peak Return.You can't get a refund on only one portion, as the second portion is generally worth only £1 (or less).

It's only the expiry of the RTN portion that matters here. It's in the Manual, and the Conditions of Carriage.

 

[Username]

No.

As per the Terms and Conditions, you can only gain a refund on a wholly unused Off Peak Return.You can't get a refund on only one portion, as the second portion is generally worth only £1 (or less).

It's only the expiry of the RTN portion that matters here. It's in the Manual, and the Conditions of Carriage.

Can you point me to the Terms and Conditions in question? I haven't seen anything that stipulates refunds are only available on wholly unused tickets.

According to National Rail Enquiries:
"Getting a refund and cancelling a ticket
With the exception of Advance tickets and some special offers where refunds are not available, a ticket may be refunded before travel. In the case of a return, the return portion may be refunded while still valid. A refund fee may apply.
You can get a refund by returning your ticket to the place you purchased it. If this was a ticket office, you'll need to complete a refund application form. If this was over the telephone or the internet, you should return it by post with a covering letter."

Although this seems to support the "from date of issue" argument.

The conditions of carriage do seem to allow for refunds on partially used tickets:
"The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid."
which is what I was referring to in the final paragraph of my last post.

And what is the 'Manual'? Where does one obtain a copy?

So what you're saying is, that despite the outward portion expiring on the date of issue I can ignore that and make refund claims up to 28 days from the expiry date of the return? Or to put it another way, up to 56 days from the date of issue/outward travel?

It would be useful to see where this is written in black and white.

 

[bb21]

Therefore if someone was seeking a refund for the entire ticket value (outward and return) the company would consider the date of issue as the date of expiry, as that was the date the outward portion expired.

I think there is a slight confusion of terms here. I don't the date of issue comes into the equation anywhere. Let's say I buy an Off-Peak Return today (therefore issued on 21st July) for 21st September (which I'm allowed to do), for which the return portion is clearly valid until 20th October. Are you telling me that the refund deadline passes on 18th August before I have even had a chance to use any portion?

 

[AlterEgo]

Can you point me to the Terms and Conditions in question? I haven't seen anything that stipulates refunds are only available on wholly unused tickets.

According to National Rail Enquiries:
"Getting a refund and cancelling a ticket
With the exception of Advance tickets and some special offers where refunds are not available, a ticket may be refunded before travel. In the case of a return, the return portion may be refunded while still valid. A refund fee may apply.
You can get a refund by returning your ticket to the place you purchased it. If this was a ticket office, you'll need to complete a refund application form. If this was over the telephone or the internet, you should return it by post with a covering letter."

Although this seems to support the "from date of issue" argument.

The conditions of carriage do seem to allow for refunds on partially used tickets:
"The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid."
which is what I was referring to in the final paragraph of my last post.

And what is the 'Manual'? Where does one obtain a copy?

So what you're saying is, that despite the outward portion expiring on the date of issue I can ignore that and make refund claims up to 28 days from the expiry date of the return? Or to put it another way, up to 56 days from the date of issue/outward travel?

It would be useful to see where this is written in black and white.

National Rail Enquiries say this about Off-Peak Return tickets:

Refunds

Your ticket is refundable.

If you decide not to use your ticket to make all or part of your intended journey then you can get a refund by returning your unused ticket to the ticket office or place of purchase (for tickets bought via websites, telesales or travel agents) within 28 days of the ticket expiry date. You may be required to pay an administration fee.

The refund amount will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid.
All tickets and travel are subject to National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

The Manual is a staff resource, as its name suggests. It gives guidance to staff about tickets, their validities, prices, restrictions on travel, and refund rights.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The conditions of carriage do seem to allow for refunds on partially used tickets:
"The amount of the refund will normally take into account any use you have made of the ticket and in some circumstances no refund will be paid."
which is what I was referring to in the final paragraph of my last post.

Yep - for example Anytime Returns. Half the ticket cost can be refunded (less a fee) for one unused portion.

You cannot get a refund on an Off-Peak Return, simply because the return portion costs £1. Admin fees preclude any usefulness of a refund.

 

[John @ home]

You cannot get a refund on an Off-Peak Return, simply because the return portion costs £1. Admin fees preclude any usefulness of a refund.

This is incorrect. An Anytime Single Newcastle - Brighton costs £164. An Off-Peak Return Newcastle - Brighton costs £230. A passenger who has used the outward portion but no longer needs to use the return portion may claim a refund. They will receive £56, that is £230 minus £164, minus a £10 admin fee. National Rail Conditions of Carriage 26 gives the passenger the right to return the unused return portion no later than 28 days after the expiry of the ticket’s validity.

 

[bb21]

You cannot get a refund on an Off-Peak Return, simply because the return portion costs £1. Admin fees preclude any usefulness of a refund.

In the majority of cases.

See the example John @ Home gave above.

You are referring to the comparison between an Off-Peak Return and Off-Peak Single, which in most cases is around £1. However there are also exceptions. Some TOCs price their Off-Peak Singles in a reasonable way, in particular FGW, hence someone who has travelled on the 0850 from Exeter St Davids on a weekday to London Paddington holding an Off-Peak Return for £83 can get a refund, should he/she no longer require the return portion, of the difference between the Off-Peak Single (£48) and ticket held, less the administration fee (£10). This gives a refund of £25.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well I guess you learn something new every day. I work almost entirely with SVRs costing a pound more than the SVS - I stand corrected, again.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Result! Full refund now obtained (less the usual £10 admin charge).

Thanks for the info everyone, in particular AlterEgo.

Seems strange that Southern's Passengers' Charter should detail refund conditions less favourable than the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which they are supposed to comply with (!)

 

[AlterEgo]

Result! Full refund now obtained (less the usual £10 admin charge).

Thanks for the info everyone, in particular AlterEgo.

Seems strange that Southern's Passengers' Charter should detail refund conditions less favourable than the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, which they are supposed to comply with (!)

I would imagine it is possibly an error....well I hope so. Did you ask about the discrepancy?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

:roll: I think that's one to raise at a future "Meet the Managers" session.

 

[AlterEgo]

:roll: I think that's one to raise at a future "Meet the Managers" session.