When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[30907]

I'm not sure what the snide 'sorry! Shame...' comment is for.

One wonders what sort of a railway system some of the 'enthisiasts' on here actually want.

I am sorry you find my comment snide, it wasnt intended as such (nor, obviously, addresed at you). Let me expand, as I now have a decent keyboard to type on not a phone.
Sorry, spending substantial sums on the Esk Valley infrastructure, such as additional crossing loops, is unlikely to be affordable in the present economic climate. That is a shame because the line would benefit from an improved service.
(Though, as I have said before, the 2-hourly service that you prefer isn't feasible within current physical constraints, even if the additional operating subsidy could be covered).

 

[yoyothehobo]

It is quicker to get the train from Middlesbrough to Newcastle with a change at Darlington, that is how ponderously slow the Durham coast line is in comparison so it makes much more sense to run the Saltburn trains through to Darlington/Bishop Auckland at the current 2TPH frequency to Darlington and get the more frequent connections.

As soon as you start sending trains long distances down branch lines at each end but have still got to dove tail with other services on the line it starts to over complicate things.

Saltburn is already half hourly as well, (Darlo-Saltburn) which in my experience is relatively reliable, even if it can get held up getting into/out of Darlo station. Why would you change it?

 

[30907]

How do the NYMR services join the line, if there isn't a token machine at Grosmont?



The NYMR services for much of the year are;
Grosmont > Whitby
09:15, 10:40, 13:15, 16:30
Whitby > Grosmont
10:00, 12:45, 14:00, 17:10
(no idea about empty stock moves between 10:40 & 12:45)

That's not much capacity being used, & none at commuter/school times.

So the line is blocked to NR traffic 0915-1110, 1240-1430, 1630-1740. Glaisdale-Whitby and back takes an hour, so that limits you to two return trips in that time (possibly three). In fact, of course, the NYMR operates in between the established NR services not vice versa, and I imagine they would be open to negotiation to fit in an extra NR train for the leisure market - but I doubt they would be prepared to reduce their service.

 

[Polarbear]

Was there once a proposal for NYMR to operate a service of some description from Grosmont towards Battersby? If an arrangement could be made where Northern ran as far as Battersby for interchange with an NYMR train (which I appreciate would have to be certified appropriately), could that solve any issues?

 

[AndyHudds]

Conversations about taking on market share from West or South Yorkshire to Whitby are generally fanciful. I point out that a return from Sheffield to Whitby, for one adult, is more than £60. From Bradford is more than £50. From Leeds is £50. Let's say that two adults and two children are going from Leeds, and let's say the best case scenario, we already posses a family railcard. The bill is still £76.40 for a day trip. Even if there were an hourly service to Whitby on comparable journey times to the car, there is no way nearly £80 on fares will be attractive to the market segment people are talking about here. In general, Advance tickets are unavailable, because TransPennine Express have chosen not to make them available. Websites such as trainsplit.com can get the fares down to around half this, but most people won't know about that, and that would still be too much for most family daytrippers.

I've been wanting to do the line just out of curiousity, but am totally put off by the scandalous fares from Huddersfield, the poor connection at Middlesbrough. The only time I'll do the line is by using one of the Rover tickets from the newspaper tokens just to keep the cost down but I'd still have to pay from Huddersfield to Middlesbrough and set off ridiculously early.

The line could do with a 'Friends of' type organisation to lobby the council, Northern and NR for improvements. The area relies heavily on tourism not just Whitby, outdoor pursuits in the NYM too and the areas economy must be mainly tourism.

The buses have it at the minute although the Coastliner is wretched, it feels like you're never getting there. The one from Scarborough generally tends to be heaving nor is it cheap either. There must be a solution somewhere.

 

[duffield]

Was there once a proposal for NYMR to operate a service of some description from Grosmont towards Battersby? If an arrangement could be made where Northern ran as far as Battersby for interchange with an NYMR train (which I appreciate would have to be certified appropriately), could that solve any issues?

AFAIK NYMR are already cleared to run to Battersby and have done so on occasions, but it doesn't fit in with the normal timetable.

 

[Bantamzen]

Was there once a proposal for NYMR to operate a service of some description from Grosmont towards Battersby? If an arrangement could be made where Northern ran as far as Battersby for interchange with an NYMR train (which I appreciate would have to be certified appropriately), could that solve any issues?

That would just add another change to a potentially already convoluted journey (and at not an exactly passenger friendly station). Plus I doubt NYMR would be willing to only accept Northern priced fares, given their charges on their regular route.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've got a solution (steps back into trench, dons tin hat):

Credit: Railway Herald

http://www.railwayherald.co.uk/imagingcentre/view/245243/LC

 

[ainsworth74]

Just looking at the timetable and an OS map of the area, and checking station usage figures: Battersby is used by about 5 people a day. If you closed the station and built a chord to avoid having the trains reverse there, I would imagine that would save about 8 minutes instantly (But I'm writing without any local knowledge so happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken). Is that do-able? Is there anything similar that can be done?

Doing that is an idea. The issue is that takes out one of the three crossing points on the line so you are going to need to build a loop. IRC the passing places are:

• Nunthorpe
• Battersby
• Glaisdale

If I was to choose one infrastructure intervention then this would be it. Close Battersby station and replace it with a curve between the existing lines. It would, however, have to still be a passing place in order to preserve capacity on the line (though you'd not need any more signalling infrastructure as it'd still be the same block sections and token machines).

I would say build a new halt there (probably in the style of Conon Bridge north of Inverness which has enough platform for one door to be used) as the trains will need to stop anyway to deal with the token machines. But doubtlessly the cost would be such as to render the entire scheme affordable so I'd have to say that avoiding a replacement station would have to be a priority!!

AFAIK NYMR are already cleared to run to Battersby and have done so on occasions, but it doesn't fit in with the normal timetable.

Yes they have access rights to run services to Battersby but I believe they are only ever used for gala events due to timetabling constraints.

 

[yorksrob]

We have to be realistic about this. Journey times simply are not going to be competitive:

Sheffield to Whitby is about 4 hours by train. It is 2 hours 20 by car
Bradford to Whitby is about 4 hours. It is just over 2 hours by car
Doncaster to Whitby only 3 1/2 hours . It is just over 2 hours by car

By train you are going to have to leave very early to arrive about noon, get about 4 hours in Whitby and have to leave at 1600 to get home! Personally I think if you don't have a car or a decent bus service you have to be REALLY committed to go on a day trip to Whitby. If you want a seaside trip by train then Scarborough is a better bet from most of the Ridings.

More services along the branch line might help but only marginally because of the journey time. You could try and fill in the gap between 0700 and 1020 or start the 1020 back form Darlington ( but then you run into the Saltburn services) which might buy you an extra hour in Whitby but you have to be careful not to conflict with the 0845 running back from Whitby AND leave space for the earliest NYMR arrival! OF COURSE extra services would be a real help to locals.

An earlier arrival into Whitby isnt going to help as the first train is an 0630 off Darlington/0700 off Middlesbrough. The line is so slow that the 1934 from Whitby misses the last TPE south from Middlesbrough ( which is frustrating and should be fixed!). It does give you a chance of the 2146 south from Darlington but it is very tight on the connection. The following TPE gives you a chance of the last trains off Leeds but again it is a very tight connection.



potentially yes but the signalling is "interesting"



Agreed. Looking at it in detail I don't think the service is main the problem. The speed of the service is.

You keep repeating that the length of journey is the problem, but surely if that was the case, the trains would all be close to empty, but they aren't. The problem is meeting the latent demand.

 

[yorksrob]

Question is how much employment is there. On Monday night I travelled from Hull on the 1740 TPE, I had expected it to be busy with people going home from work - but it wasn't, not even slightly. I suspect the reason for this is that there aren't enough jobs for the locals, let alone for those who would commute in by train.

That said, that's another Conwy Valley parallel - a service that doesn't really provide for commuting to the nearest large town (Llandudno in that case).

Aren't employees in Hull more likely to catch Northern services to the surrounding stations ?

 

[ainsworth74]

Aren't employees in Hull more likely to catch Northern services to the surrounding stations ?

A well placed source indicates that certainly there are trains on and off the Yorkshire Coast Line that are full and standing (or at least they were before the 170s rocked up) in the relevant peak time direction.

 

[option]

I am all for trying to make it better, but fiddling with the timetable and the like will achieve nothing.
Either "big bang" it to a reasonable service level or stop throwing money after it.

As far as I can tell, additional loops at Castleton Moor and Glaisdale, and double track between Grosmont and Sleights would enable a half hourly service, and if you had double track into Whitby you might even be able to let the NYMR do far more. (This assumes the Class 230s can shave a little journey time to provide the reliability margin)

A modular resignal, two Penryn esque station loops and a dynamic loop isn't really absurd is it? Alongside 14 Class 230 vehicles, plus two spare.

if the NYMR could run more services at Whitby, it might lead to more users out of the peak hours (weekends, summer daytimes) which would help the line financially

 

[yorksrob]

Why not run the service to Whitby, & Saltburn, from Newcastle?
If Whitby & Saltburn were hourly, they could be timed so they ran half-hourly on Newcastle-Middlesbrough.

I'm not against this idea, so long as it doesn't introduce unnecessary unreliability into the timetable. Certainly a lot of passengers sound as though they have accents from the North East.

 

[yorksrob]

The gist I'm getting from this thread are that poor journey times are a huge barrier. So perhaps it's worth asking if there are any easy wins for improving journey times.

Just looking at the timetable and an OS map of the area, and checking station usage figures: Battersby is used by about 5 people a day. If you closed the station and built a chord to avoid having the trains reverse there, I would imagine that would save about 8 minutes instantly (But I'm writing without any local knowledge so happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken). Is that do-able? Is there anything similar that can be done?

If a couple of extra services could be fitted in without too many infrastructure improvements, could those run fast, skipping quite a few of the less used stops?

That surprises me about Battersby. There often seem to be a few people getting on and off (not just the driver/guard).

 

[yorksrob]

A well placed source indicates that certainly there are trains on and off the Yorkshire Coast Line that are full and standing (or at least they were before the 170s rocked up) in the relevant peak time direction.

Yes, that sounds as I would expect for a city the size of Hull. Obviously Middlesborough isn't quite as big, but I would still expect it to be an employment centre.

 

[Starmill]

On Monday night I travelled from Hull on the 1740 TPE, I had expected it to be busy with people going home from work - but it wasn't, not even slightly.

Travelling home to where??? Why would that train be filled with daily commuters?

Brough? There are services to Brough at 1709, 1715 and 1727 - surely not vastly surprising that the 1740 doesn't carry loads of Brough passengers? Daily commuters are likely to have caught one of the three preceding departures after 1700. Yet another service for Brough also departs just 12 minutes after the 1740.

Selby? Again, there are 1709 and 1715 departures for Selby, so only a 25 minute gap even there. A weekly season from Selby to Hull is £65, too, or exceeding £2.5k annually, and houses in Selby are probably not significantly cheaper than in Hull? While I'm confident there are some Hull commuters based in Selby, at that price it is not going to be trainloads is it?

Garforth or Leeds? This is rather a long journey time for a daily commute, and probably costs more to live in most places near Garforth or Leeds than in Hull? Nearly £110 a week too, and exceeding £4.3k a year.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Brough? There are services to Brough at 1709, 1715 and 1727 - surely not vastly surprising that the 1740 doesn't carry loads of Brough passengers? Daily commuters are likely to have caught one of the three preceding departures after 1700. Yet another service for Brough also departs just 12 minutes after the 1740.

Do people genuinely walk out at 1700 in many jobs these days? A train just after 1730 seems a more likely choice - hence why I thought that one would be busy. But you're right, there is plenty of choice.

1740 off Leeds on t'other hand...

 

[30907]

If I was to choose one infrastructure intervention then this would be it. Close Battersby station and replace it with a curve between the existing lines. It would, however, have to still be a passing place in order to preserve capacity on the line (though you'd not need any more signalling infrastructure as it'd still be the same block sections and token machines).

Entirely agree.
By cutting Glaisdale-Middlesbrough to 55 mins or so you open up the possibility of a 2-hourly service using 2 units (separate from Newcastle-Nunthorpe). I'm not convinced a crossing loop is essential, but I'd be minded to put it at Castleton Moor to split the section better.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not convinced a crossing loop is essential, but I'd be minded to put it at Castleton Moor to split the section better.

Well, I think that one is needed but I'm certainly open to suggestions regarding where it should be! There was historically one at Castleton Moor but looking at the satellite view it looks like the land may, annoyingly, have been encroached upon over time.

 

[Clip]

If I was to choose one infrastructure intervention then this would be it. Close Battersby station and replace it with a curve between the existing lines. It would, however, have to still be a passing place in order to preserve capacity on the line (though you'd not need any more signalling infrastructure as it'd still be the same block sections and token machines).

Now that this is in speculative ideas ive got the crayons out and by keeping the station and building the curve as suggested you can use the station as a holding point for trains to Middlesbrough whilst letting the one to Whitby using the curve to pass it.

Ive missed my forte in infrastructure planning

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That surprises me about Battersby. There often seem to be a few people getting on and off (not just the driver/guard).

So that brings up the question of, why the discrepancy. Is it possible that the days and times you tend to travel tend to be when the line is busiest, and so aren't representative? Or could there be significant fare evasion on the line? Or is it possible that some people use the line for walking, splitting their journey by getting off at places like Battersby then getting back on a later train on, eg. a Middlesbrough-somewhere beyond Battersby ticket?

(Genuine questions as I have no personal experience of the line)

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Entirely agree.
By cutting Glaisdale-Middlesbrough to 55 mins or so you open up the possibility of a 2-hourly service using 2 units (separate from Newcastle-Nunthorpe). I'm not convinced a crossing loop is essential, but I'd be minded to put it at Castleton Moor to split the section better.

Having a quick look at the timetable, it looks to me like the only times the crossing at Battersby are used are for the afternoon express to Danby and the evening peak train that terminates at Battersby. Given the low usage at those stations, I can't help wondering how well used those/important those trains would actually be? At all other times, there's only at most one non-NYMR train on the line beyond Nunthorpe. Obviously that situation might be different if a better service to Whitby was to be run.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If I was to choose one infrastructure intervention then this would be it. Close Battersby station and replace it with a curve between the existing lines. It would, however, have to still be a passing place in order to preserve capacity on the line (though you'd not need any more signalling infrastructure as it'd still be the same block sections and token machines).

I would say build a new halt there (probably in the style of Conon Bridge north of Inverness which has enough platform for one door to be used) as the trains will need to stop anyway to deal with the token machines. But doubtlessly the cost would be such as to render the entire scheme affordable so I'd have to say that avoiding a replacement station would have to be a priority!!

I'd agree. Apart from the cost and low usage, a replacement station would partially defeat the object of speeding up journey times. And if the trains need to stop anyway at any passing loop to deal with the token machines, then I'd say, definitely go for putting any loop at an existing station to avoid the extra stop (although there are obviously cost implications).

 

[yorksrob]

So that brings up the question of, why the discrepancy. Is it possible that the days and times you tend to travel tend to be when the line is busiest, and so aren't representative? Or could there be significant fare evasion on the line? Or is it possible that some people use the line for walking, splitting their journey by getting off at places like Battersby then getting back on a later train on, eg. a Middlesbrough-somewhere beyond Battersby ticket?

(Genuine questions as I have no personal experience of the line)

I don't really know to be honest. Certainly fair to say that there's not a lot there. Perhaps its a bit of a Saturday walking hot spot.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is it possible that the days and times you tend to travel tend to be when the line is busiest, and so aren't representative? Or could there be significant fare evasion on the line? Or is it possible that some people use the line for walking, splitting their journey by getting off at places like Battersby then getting back on a later train on, eg. a Middlesbrough-somewhere beyond Battersby ticket?

Regarding outright fare evasion it's probably fairly low so as to be negligable. Conductors round these parts are very good on the whole at doing revenue. Morning, afternoon, late at night you'll usually get a conductor collecting fares. Only times you don't are usually either down to 1) not being able to get through the train quick enough to sell everyone tickets, 2) broken ticket machine or 3) train is so busy that they physically cannot make it down to sell tickets.

On you later point regarding getting off at Battersby with at ticket for a later station. I'm not so sure on that point. It's certainly possible but the impression I have is that the proper walking country is deeper into the line than Battersby.

Having a quick look at the timetable, it looks to me like the only times the crossing at Battersby are used are for the afternoon express to Danby and the evening peak train that terminates at Battersby. Given the low usage at those stations, I can't help wondering how well used those/important those trains would actually be?

Those services are there because otherwise the units would be sitting at Nunthorpe not doing anything. So after some prodding by interested parties of Northern and to keep them out of the way it was decided to run them as far as they could go down the branch in the time available. Danby and Battersby are as far as those trains can get before coming back to pick up their path from Nunthorpe.

As to usage? They cart fresh air! I was the only passenger on the train back from Danby when I did the afternoon service (we did have people using it to Danby however). And a friend and I were the only passengers on beyond Nunthorpe in both directions on the evening Battersby service. We did make friends with the conductor though seeing as she didn't have much else to do

 

[Esker-pades]

Having a quick look at the timetable, it looks to me like the only times the crossing at Battersby are used are for the afternoon express to Danby and the evening peak train that terminates at Battersby. Given the low usage at those stations, I can't help wondering how well used those/important those trains would actually be? At all other times, there's only at most one non-NYMR train on the line beyond Nunthorpe. Obviously that situation might be different if a better service to Whitby was to be run.

I did both in late December last year. While the through trains to Whitby were well used, those short terminating ones really weren't. I was the only person on the Battersby terminator in both direcions south of Nunthorpe.

 

[ainsworth74]

I was the only person on the Battersby terminator in both direcions south of Nunthorpe.

The conductor of our train seemed down right startled to have anyone else accompanying them beyond Nunthorpe so I suspect that it's common for there to be no-one else on board but the crew!

 

[DarloRich]

For completeness: The signalling system at Battersby

NYMR - Battersby Junction IECC by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

NYMR - Battersby Junction IECC by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

If I was to choose one infrastructure intervention then this would be it. Close Battersby station and replace it with a curve between the existing lines. It would, however, have to still be a passing place in order to preserve capacity on the line (though you'd not need any more signalling infrastructure as it'd still be the same block sections and token machines).

I would say build a new halt there (probably in the style of Conon Bridge north of Inverness which has enough platform for one door to be used) as the trains will need to stop anyway to deal with the token machines. But doubtlessly the cost would be such as to render the entire scheme affordable so I'd have to say that avoiding a replacement station would have to be a priority!!

Agreed

Yes they have access rights to run services to Battersby but I believe they are only ever used for gala events due to timetabling constraints.

Indeed: NYMR by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

NYMR by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

You keep repeating that the length of journey is the problem, but surely if that was the case, the trains would all be close to empty, but they aren't. The problem is meeting the latent demand.

Of course the length of the journey is the problem! That time penalty reduces the attraction to people travelling from beyond Middlesbrough or Darlington. From Newcastle or Leeds you will drive.

A well placed source indicates that certainly there are trains on and off the Yorkshire Coast Line that are full and standing (or at least they were before the 170s rocked up) in the relevant peak time direction.

People are employed in Hull?

 

[ainsworth74]

People are employed in Hull?

Yes! They even let people in Middlesbrough have jobs these days!