When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[DynamicSpirit]

Those services are there because otherwise the units would be sitting at Nunthorpe not doing anything. So after some prodding by interested parties of Northern and to keep them out of the way it was decided to run them as far as they could go down the branch in the time available. Danby and Battersby are as far as those trains can get before coming back to pick up their path from Nunthorpe.

As to usage? They cart fresh air! I was the only passenger on the train back from Danby when I did the afternoon service (we did have people using it to Danby however). And a friend and I were the only passengers on beyond Nunthorpe in both directions on the evening Battersby service. We did make friends with the conductor though seeing as she didn't have much else to do

Thanks, that's interesting info. So in principle those services are basically useless beyond Nunthorpe, so you could perhaps lose them, assuming they are not actually preventing anything else from running by sitting at Nunthorpe. Then I'd guess you could in principle build a chord to avoid the reversal at Battersby, not bother with building a replacement passing place, and you'd shave a moderately significant amount of time off the journey to Whitby while being able to keep at least the current service. That sounds like potentially a win to me. (Though obviously building a passing place somewhere else to allow a better service to Whitby would be preferable).

 

[yorksrob]

For completeness: The signalling system at Battersby

NYMR - Battersby Junction IECC by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

NYMR - Battersby Junction IECC by DarloRich2009, on Flickr



Agreed



Indeed: NYMR by DarloRich2009, on Flickr

NYMR by DarloRich2009, on Flickr



Of course the length of the journey is the problem! That time penalty reduces the attraction to people travelling from beyond Middlesbrough or Darlington. From Newcastle or Leeds you will drive.



People are employed in Hull?

Well, it does, but not enough to empty the trains.

 

[yorksrob]

Thanks, that's interesting info. So in principle those services are basically useless beyond Nunthorpe, so you could perhaps lose them, assuming they are not actually preventing anything else from running by sitting at Nunthorpe. Then I'd guess you could in principle build a chord to avoid the reversal at Battersby, not bother with building a replacement passing place, and you'd shave a moderately significant amount of time off the journey to Whitby while being able to keep at least the current service. That sounds like potentially a win to me. (Though obviously building a passing place somewhere else to allow a better service to Whitby would be preferable).

Speaking as a passenger, if you shortened the length of the journey and made it more attractive, but did nothinhg to improve the service, capacity or frequency wise, that would be a lose to me as the trains I travel on would be even more overcrowded (unbearably though).

 

[DarloRich]

I notice there is a 2257 Fridays only train from Whitby. I bet that is a party special! Frustratingly it runs empty to Darlington from Middlesbrough.

Well, it does, but not enough to empty the trains.

I am not disagreeing with you about loadings just suggesting that the focus be on the locals and the day trippers from the local area. I would service those form further afield with better connections to/from Darlington and Middlesbrough.

You are looking at c.3 hours from Newcastle arriving at just before 12! The good news for Newcastle is you CAN use the 1934 and actually get home so a decent day out is possible IF you accept a long day out.

 

[yorksrob]

I notice there is a 2257 Fridays only train from Whitby. I bet that is a party special! Frustratingly it runs empty to Darlington from Middlesbrough.



I am not disagreeing with you about loadings just suggesting that the focus be on the locals and the day trippers from the local area. I would service those form further afield with better connections to/from Darlington and Middlesbrough.

You are looking at c.3 hours from Newcastle arriving at just before 12! The good news for Newcastle is you CAN use the 1934 and actually get home so a decent day out is possible IF you accept a long day out.

Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. Iwould agree that better services to Darlington/Middlesborough would improve the core market and facilitate better connections from further afield.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, I think that's a fair assessment. Iwould agree that better services to Darlington/Middlesborough would improve the core market and facilitate better connections from further afield.

You should be able to get the last ECML train south off that 1934. You certainly should be able to connect onto the last TPE at Middlesbrough! That gives you a wider network of services/places you can connect with.

Interestingly the last express ( summer only) Coastliner bus leaves Whitby at 16:45 and gets to York station at 1823. The last standard bus leaves Whitby at 1745 and gets to York station at 2007. Both offer you better connections south than the train.

 

[Fireless]

I'd suggest making the whole line fit for at least two trains per hour to enable a basic service of one train per hour and leave plenty of capacity for eventual other traffic.

 

[bearhugger]

The line could do with a 'Friends of' type organisation to lobby the council, Northern and NR for improvements. The area relies heavily on tourism not just Whitby, outdoor pursuits in the NYM too and the areas economy must be mainly tourism.

There is a Community Rail Partnership (one of the original ones to be launched, i believe). Their website is http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/. Their Twitter handle is @EVRDC.

I notice there is a 2257 Fridays only train from Whitby. I bet that is a party special! Frustratingly it runs empty to Darlington from Middlesbrough.

Yep, the Music & Ale train http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/events/index.html
"The Music & Ale Train
EVERY Friday Evening
until August 30th
19:34 Departure from Whitby, back into Whitby at 22:50"

Ironiclly, the 19:34 from Whitby on Saturday is a dry train!

 

[option]

Was there once a proposal for NYMR to operate a service of some description from Grosmont towards Battersby? If an arrangement could be made where Northern ran as far as Battersby for interchange with an NYMR train (which I appreciate would have to be certified appropriately), could that solve any issues?

Junction at Grosmont faces the wrong way for that to be easy, & as others have said, what would be the purpose.
The issue is the service all the way to Whitby, splitting it in two would probably end it.

The NYMR aren't going to regularly run west of Grosmont as there's nothing to go to.

 

[Killingworth]

The NYMR aren't going to regularly run west of Grosmont as there's nothing to go to.

Park and ride at Battersby for visitors to NYMR to get a different journey? Perhaps a more convenient starting point than Pickering for those from the North-East.

Promote walks and pub crawls! http://eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/downloads/RAILALETRAILInside2014.pdf

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Junction at Grosmont faces the wrong way for that to be easy, & as others have said, what would be the purpose.
The issue is the service all the way to Whitby, splitting it in two would probably end it.

The NYMR aren't going to regularly run west of Grosmont as there's nothing to go to.

Another issue is that - if timings between Grosmont and Whitby are anything to go by, NYMR trains run a lot slower than NR trains: NR takes 20 minutes Grosmont to Whitby making several stops en route. NYMR takes up to 30 minutes despite running non-stop. Force people to change at Battersby onto a train that runs considerably more slowly and you could easily be talking 2 hours to get from Middlesbrough to Whitby. That would probably be disastrous for attracting passengers.

 

[Killingworth]

Another issue is that - if timings between Grosmont and Whitby are anything to go by, NYMR trains run a lot slower than NR trains: NR takes 20 minutes Grosmont to Whitby making several stops en route. NYMR takes up to 30 minutes despite running non-stop. Force people to change at Battersby onto a train that runs considerably more slowly and you could easily be talking 2 hours to get from Middlesbrough to Whitby. That would probably be disastrous for attracting passengers.

NYMR could use a heritage Pacer. As they currently cope it shouldn't be a problem. Just a thought, how can NYMR (and others) continue to operate Mk 1 carriages into 2020?

 

[option]

Park and ride at Battersby for visitors to NYMR to get a different journey? Perhaps a more convenient starting point than Pickering for those from the North-East.

Promote walks and pub crawls! http://eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/downloads/RAILALETRAILInside2014.pdf

Battersby
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.4575519,-1.0933917,228m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

Grosmont is probably easier to get to, or even Whitby itself.

 

[Glenn1969]

Maybe heritage railways like NYMR could make good use of Pacer trains. Or would customers be unwilling to pay a premium to ride on them?

 

[yorksrob]

Junction at Grosmont faces the wrong way for that to be easy, & as others have said, what would be the purpose.
The issue is the service all the way to Whitby, splitting it in two would probably end it.

The NYMR aren't going to regularly run west of Grosmont as there's nothing to go to.

Park and ride at Battersby for visitors to NYMR to get a different journey? Perhaps a more convenient starting point than Pickering for those from the North-East.

Promote walks and pub crawls! http://eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/downloads/RAILALETRAILInside2014.pdf

Another issue is that - if timings between Grosmont and Whitby are anything to go by, NYMR trains run a lot slower than NR trains: NR takes 20 minutes Grosmont to Whitby making several stops en route. NYMR takes up to 30 minutes despite running non-stop. Force people to change at Battersby onto a train that runs considerably more slowly and you could easily be talking 2 hours to get from Middlesbrough to Whitby. That would probably be disastrous for attracting passengers.

Yes. I think replacing Esk valley service trains with NYMR is a non-starter.

• The trains wouldn't be fast enough compared to the current service.
• Preserved railways rarely have the staff/resources to run a full day/every day service that is necessary to attract normal passengers.

One option I've suggested on this forum would be (given the current stock shortages) for Northern to hire a heritage DMU to run between the existing services and connect with Northern services terminating at Battersby. This could be restricted to summer weeks or summer Saturdays and could possibly relieve some pressure on the current through services.

There would need to be some incentive/prompt for the powers that be to actually improve the service.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Another issue is that - if timings between Grosmont and Whitby are anything to go by, NYMR trains run a lot slower than NR trains: NR takes 20 minutes Grosmont to Whitby making several stops en route. NYMR takes up to 30 minutes despite running non-stop......

A good 15 minutes or so, I'd guess, is wasted by the crew needing to operate the ground frames at Grosmont (which is after departure) and at Whitby (before arrival), while the train waits, off platform. And vice versa return. Hence my initial suggestion, way back up there ^^^ for "proper" signalling and point operation in these places at least, along with a true single line section break at Grosmont - preferably using tokenless detection.

 

[Killingworth]

Battersby
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.4575519,-1.0933917,228m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en-GB&authuser=0

Grosmont is probably easier to get to, or even Whitby itself.

It's 15-20 miles further to Grosmont or Whitby, taking another 20 - 30 minutes at least than to to Battersby from Newcastle. I once had reason to go to Kildale from Newcastle and did it just over the hour via the A19. Never seriously considered using the train as I was en route to Sheffield and only visiting ancestors graves.

 

[option]

Another issue is that - if timings between Grosmont and Whitby are anything to go by, NYMR trains run a lot slower than NR trains: NR takes 20 minutes Grosmont to Whitby making several stops en route. NYMR takes up to 30 minutes despite running non-stop. Force people to change at Battersby onto a train that runs considerably more slowly and you could easily be talking 2 hours to get from Middlesbrough to Whitby. That would probably be disastrous for attracting passengers.

The obvious first thing to do is break the overly long signalling block, & get a crossing loop in at Grosmont.
If Grosmont-Whitby is one block, then the longest you occupy it for is 40minutes.
(Anything at Whitby P2 & run-around doesn't block P1 & the line.)
There are some NR services doing Whitby-Grosmont in 16minutes.

It would need to run smoothly, but you could then have a 2-hourly service at Whitby, even with a 5minute turn around for Northern & 15min for NYMR services.
Whitby Grosmont Whitby
NT0845 0905

NYMR0905 0935​

NYMR0950 1020

NT1020 1040​

NT1045 1105

 

[Bletchleyite]

5 minute turnarounds aren't really realistic, though, are they? No point in an unpunctual timetable. Keep it to ten minutes in the hour, and if that means the kettles get chucked out, tough. They are not the priority of the mainline.

 

[yorksrob]

Is there any reason why the NYMR can't clear the section in 20 mins ? The NR trains don't strike me as particularly fast over the section.

 

[option]

Is there any reason why the NYMR can't clear the section in 20 mins ? The NR trains don't strike me as particularly fast over the section.

Looking at RTT, they do it in ~25minutes, they are allowing 30mins station to station on the NYMR timetable. (even seem to have a stop at either Sleights or Ruswarp!)


It seems to be the infrastructure that's slowing them down;

A good 15 minutes or so, I'd guess, is wasted by the crew needing to operate the ground frames at Grosmont (which is after departure) and at Whitby (before arrival), while the train waits, off platform. And vice versa return. Hence my initial suggestion, way back up there ^^^ for "proper" signalling and point operation in these places at least, along with a true single line section break at Grosmont - preferably using tokenless detection.

They still need time to do the runaround at Whitby, which is 15minutes.

 

[option]

5 minute turnarounds aren't really realistic, though, are they? No point in an unpunctual timetable. Keep it to ten minutes in the hour, and if that means the kettles get chucked out, tough. They are not the priority of the mainline.

That's based on taking 20mins G-W, when they're taking more like 16-18, so there would be a few more minutes for a turnaround.

NYMR will be paying access charges, which will be helping the lines finances from NRs side.
NYMR services at Whitby might draw some extra tourist passengers on the existing services, which is good for those finances.

 

[yorksrob]

Looking at RTT, they do it in ~25minutes, they are allowing 30mins station to station on the NYMR timetable. (even seem to have a stop at either Sleights or Ruswarp!)


It seems to be the infrastructure that's slowing them down;



They still need time to do the runaround at Whitby, which is 15minutes.

Thanks, so not a vast differance in that case.

 

[Skipness]

The obvious first thing to do is break the overly long signalling block, & get a crossing loop in at Grosmont.
If Grosmont-Whitby is one block, then the longest you occupy it for is 40minutes.

You obviously haven't seen the impossibility of having a loop at Grosmont seeing as the line is already on a tight curve. (In hot weather a Pacer sounds like a bacon slicer, in wet weather adhesion can be a problem)

 

[yorksrob]

You obviously haven't seen the impossibility of having a loop at Grosmont seeing as the line is already on a tight curve. (In hot weather a Pacer sounds like a bacon slicer, in wet weather adhesion can be a problem)

One could still potentially break the section though !

 

[30907]

One could still potentially break the section though !

You mean with an additional pair of token instruments on the NR platform?
That's not a daft idea (note to southern members: that's a seriously good idea and wouldn't be too expensive).

 

[yorksrob]

You mean with an additional pair of token instruments on the NR platform?
That's not a daft idea (note to southern members: that's a seriously good idea and wouldn't be too expensive).

Well, now you mention it - but others on this thread got there first

 

[option]

You obviously haven't seen the impossibility of having a loop at Grosmont seeing as the line is already on a tight curve. (In hot weather a Pacer sounds like a bacon slicer, in wet weather adhesion can be a problem)

Was the Esk Valley side not 2 platforms?

 

[Skutter]

You mean with an additional pair of token instruments on the NR platform?
That's not a daft idea (note to southern members: that's a seriously good idea and wouldn't be too expensive).

That would add another 3 minutes at least to the through journey time though, and increase the load on Nunthorpe signaller. What seems to be needed is a cost-effective alternative to the fixed token blocks we have, but noone seems to be working on one.

 

[ainsworth74]

That would add another 3 minutes at least to the through journey time though, and increase the load on Nunthorpe signaller.

With the greatest of respect to the good men and women of Nunthorpe box I'm not convinced it's the busiest patch on the network such that one extra token change would be unmanageable