When will something be done about the Whitby branch ?

[ainsworth74]

Alan Williams perchance? I respect his opinion but equally he sometimes isn't the most objective commentator...

 

[yorksrob]

Alan Williams perchance? I respect his opinion but equally he sometimes isn't the most objective commentator...

Thank goodness someone with a railway background is highlighting the problems with the route.

I'm not sure that there's much one could say in terms of objectivity, other than to point out that the service is well below standard, and that often little effort seems to be made to provide even the most basic comfort to passengers when large numbers of passengers could easily be predicted.

 

[yorksrob]

Having just read the column, it appears that a Regional Director of Northern Rail recently admitted to the local users group that Northern would rather the line closed. This might explain the reluctance even to shove an idle unit on the back of the existing service.

There is no value to the passenger of a franchise dragging its feet, and I see no value in a franchise that wishes its routes away. Perhaps the Mayors of Liverpool and Manchester are correct to call for Northern to be put out of its misery.

 

[Meerkat]

Having just read the column, it appears that a Regional Director of Northern Rail recently admitted to the local users group that Northern would rather the line closed

Of course he does. A difficult to run service that is never going to make money, and he knows no one is going to fund the kind of improvements that would make it really viable.

 

[yorksrob]

Of course he does. A difficult to run service that is never going to make money, and he knows no one is going to fund the kind of improvements that would make it really viable.

The whole point of having a Northern franchise is that its supposed to make the best of the rag bag bunch of routes, particularly scenic ones and those serving tourist destinations.

How is any line going to thrive if those running it aren't prepared to make any effort. This was a particularly concerning paragraph from the column, regarding the section 106 funding, obtained from the Potash mine works specifically to support an 8 train a day railway:

After three years, not a penny of that £7 million has been spent or even committed. Inexplicably, Northern has declined to provide any new services, even though to do so would not cost it a penny - and indeed would therefore provide it with a rare opportunity to run a service at a profit

In the public sector, not using the funding allocated for you is a cardinal sin. Someone further up the thread mentioned that an additional loop would be needed to enable two trains to operate the service. Is £7 million enough ?

If Northern can't make improvements with money being thrown at it to do so, it must be a lame duck.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is this money from Sirius Minerals?

 

[yorksrob]

Is this money from Sirius Minerals?

Yes, that's it.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's not at all clear, to me anyway, quite how this money is to be used or accessed. As far as I'm aware it's not been "thrown" at Northern at all indeed it's not even clear if it's been given to anyone to spend as yet! Which is sort of my point regarding the good Mr Williams views and their not always being fully on the ball...

 

[yorksrob]

It's not at all clear, to me anyway, quite how this money is to be used or accessed. As far as I'm aware it's not been "thrown" at Northern at all indeed it's not even clear if it's been given to anyone to spend as yet! Which is sort of my point regarding the good Mr Williams views and their not always being fully on the ball...

Well, according to the agreement, (page 18) the funding of the rail improvements were supposed to be payable 12 months after the commencement of construction (presumably of the mine). This construction appears to have commenced in May 2017, so Northern should have been banging on the County Council's door to get something claimed from May last year. You're probably right in that it's not entirely up to Northern to do this. It appears that NR and North Yorkshire County Council should have been getting their fingers out as well.

£1.5 million for the train service and £4.5 million for the infrastructure works going unclaimed.

Rail Services Contribution

1.1 To pay the Rail Service Contribution to the County Council as set out in paragraphs 1.2 and 1.3 below for the purposes of establishing a new train service to increase the existing services between Middlesbrough and Whitby accepting always that the County Council has no obligation to deliver such a service and delivery can only be achieved on the basis that the service is fully funded by YPL or sources other than the County Council

1.2 Five hundred thousand pounds (£500,000) lnde!( Linked payable 12 months after the Commencement of Construction and five hundred thousand pounds (£500,000) Index Linked on the first and second anniversary of the first operation of the Rail Services (comprising £1,500,000 in total plus indexation)

1.3 Up to a maximum of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds (£250,000) Index Linked per annum for three years upon receipt of a written demand from the County Council pursuant to paragraph 3 of Schedule2 2 Rail Infrastructure Contribution

2.1 To pay the Rail Infrastructure Contribution being a maximum sum of four million five hundred thousand pounds (£4,550,000) Index Linked towards the cost of infrastructure upgrades required to facilitate the Rail Services on the Middlesbrough to Whitby rail line in a manner which will avoid a negative impact on the core five train per day services of the North York Moors Historical Railway Trust (NYMR) between Pickering and Whitby such money to be paid as set out in paragraphs 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 below

2.2 Seven Hundred and Fifty Thousand Pounds (£750,000) Index Linked on the ommencement of Construction

2.3 Up to a maximum of Fifty Thousand Pounds (£50,000) Index Linked six months from the date of the Planning Permission granted by the NYMNPA to reimburse the County Council for the cost of work carried out or procured by it in the appraisal of options such payment to be made within 28 days of a written demand from the County Council setting out the option appraisal carried out and itemising the monies expended on such appraisal

2.4 Up to three million seven hundred and fifty thousand (£3,750,000) Index Linked following the expiry of a period of 12 months from the Commencement of Construction and within 28 days of a written demand from the County Council setting out the infrastructure works involved and the cost of those works accepting always that the County Council has no obligation to deliver such infrastructure upgrades and delivery can only be achieved on the basis that the infrastructure upgrades are fully funded by YPL or sources other than the County Council

2.5 In the event that t~e Rail Infrastructure Contribution provides insufficient funds to procure an additional four services between Middlesbrough and Whitby to use its reasonable endeavours to investigate and apply for all alternative sources of funding (such as grant aid) as may be available to supplement the Rail Infrastructure Contribution

 

[Skipness]

The later service would presumably be the 14xx which comes from Hexham and replaces the Whitby unit which goes off on a run to Hexham, swapping back on the return legs. Therefore they presumably anticipated the return crowds (it would form the 1600 to Mbro)

I can confirm that the 1600 was indeed a four car service, and that the mid day service to Whitby was crush loaded and did not arrive until after its 1158 departure time.
Things did not go well later in the day either.

 

[yorksrob]

View attachment 65089 View attachment 65088
I can confirm that the 1600 was indeed a four car service, and that the mid day service to Whitby was crush loaded and did not arrive until after its 1158 departure time.
Things did not go well later in the day either.

That's some delay on the later return.

Does anyone know what the issue was ?
****
Edit : I see, so it didn't run at all beyond Nunthorpe !

 

[70014IronDuke]

Not entirely clear, but delays and dropped minutes on the 10.20 ex Mdbro (11 minutes lost en route) and end of day service (22 late start, 9 mins lost en route) yesterday could well be indicative of continuing over-crowding.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60350/2019/07/06/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63419/2019/07/06/advanced

 

[yorksrob]

Not entirely clear, but delays and dropped minutes on the 10.20 ex Mdbro (11 minutes lost en route) and end of day service (22 late start, 9 mins lost en route) yesterday could well be indicative of continuing over-crowding.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60350/2019/07/06/advanced

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y63419/2019/07/06/advanced

Thanks for the info. If anyone was there and can confirm if this was the case, that would be interesting.

It all helps to dispel the myth that the line is a quiet country branch line that only gets busy on the occasional bank holiday.

 

[David 90825]

Thanks for the info. If anyone was there and can confirm if this was the case, that would be interesting.

It all helps to dispel the myth that the line is a quiet country branch line that only gets busy on the occasional bank holiday.

The 1020 from Mbro on Saturday 06 July was full & standing by Nunthorpe where approximately 15 passengers were left behind. The last service from Mbro was strengthened to a 4 car set.

 

[David 90825]

That's some delay on the later return.

Does anyone know what the issue was ?
****
Edit : I see, so it didn't run at all beyond Nunthorpe !

The delay was caused by a track fault at Guisborough Junction.

 

[yorksrob]

The 1020 from Mbro on Saturday 06 July was full & standing by Nunthorpe where approximately 15 passengers were left behind. The last service from Mbro was strengthened to a 4 car set.

Thank you. This is more first hand evidence that Saturday overcrowding is a regular occurrance and not just an occasional bank holiday phenomenom. Once again, crowding is only being resolved retrospectively, but not anticipated and planned for, and potential passengers are being left behind.

This is a route that people want to use, yet that potential is being squandered.

The delay was caused by a track fault at Guisborough Junction.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[AndyHudds]

Thank you. This is more first hand evidence that Saturday overcrowding is a regular occurrance and not just an occasional bank holiday phenomenom. Once again, crowding is only being resolved retrospectively, but not anticipated and planned for, and potential passengers are being left behind.

This is a route that people want to use, yet that potential is being squandered.



Thanks for the confirmation.

Be better if it was closed totally though according to some.

 

[yorksrob]

Be better if it was closed totally though according to some.

Sadly, like the poor, the closure obsessives will always be with us.

 

[Skipness]

An interesting comparison can be made with the Par to Newquay branch. Journey time of around an hour is the same, and limited crossing points on the single track.
However, train capacity is linked to expected usage, especially at summer weekends. In fact, when the board masters festival is on extra trains are run to cope with the demand.
(I will concede that Newquay is a more popular resort than Whitby, but is this because it has a better rail service?)

 

[yorksrob]

An interesting comparison can be made with the Par to Newquay branch. Journey time of around an hour is the same, and limited crossing points on the single track.
However, train capacity is linked to expected usage, especially at summer weekends. In fact, when the board masters festival is on extra trains are run to cope with the demand.
(I will concede that Newquay is a more popular resort than Whitby, but is this because it has a better rail service?)

It's a sad day when we can only dream of a train service as good as the Newquay branch !

 

[Skipness]

It's a sad day when we can only dream of a train service as good as the Newquay branch !

Unless you need to use one of the intermediate stations such as Bugle on a Saturday!

 

[yorksrob]

Unless you need to use one of the intermediate stations such as Bugle on a Saturday!

Yes, I suppose at least the intermediate stations get treated equitably.

 

[AndyHudds]

It's a sad day when we can only dream of a train service as good as the Newquay branch !

The only branch line that sees intercity trains!!

 

[yorksrob]

The only branch line that sees intercity trains!!

Except Paignton (strictly speaking) !

 

[class26]

The only branch line that sees intercity trains!!

Skegness (if that`s a branch ?) sees HST`s in the summer also

 

[clickety-clack]

Sorry I'm a bit sparse on details as only heard it quickly on the radio, but it seems there is to be an extra service added AM and PM in December.

Found some details here: https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.u...nd-back-possible-for-the-first-time-1-9877289

 

[Ianno87]

Except Paignton (strictly speaking) !

And Pembroke Dock.

 

[Esker-pades]

Sorry I'm a bit sparse on details as only heard it quickly on the radio, but it seems there is to be an extra service added AM and PM in December.

Found some details here: https://www.thescarboroughnews.co.u...nd-back-possible-for-the-first-time-1-9877289

As per the forum rules, find the text of the article quoted below.

More Esk Valley Line trains will be coming to Whitby from December.
Following a long campaign by the Esk Valley Community Rail Partnership, Northern Rail is planning more trains year round in both the early morning and later in the evening.


“This will transform the rail service on the Esk Valley line” says Partnership Chairman Alan Williams, “providing for the first time services for both commuters and the growing evening economy in Whitby”.


The Partnership has proposed a new early morning departure from Whitby to arrive in Middlesbrough before 8.30am.


Together with later evening services, this will enable commuting or other day trips by rail to Darlington, York and Leeds, or even further afield to Manchester and Newcastle, and provide much better access to the new station at James Cook Hospital throughout the day.

When the new direct LNER Azuma service from Middlesbrough starts soon, a day trip to London and back by rail will be possible for the first time.

The new train service is the first stage of the Community Rail Partnership’s plan, part funded by Sirius Minerals, to bring a two hourly train service to the line once Network Rail has completed necessary infrastructure and other improvement works.

 

[clickety-clack]

As per the forum rules, find the text of the article quoted below.

Thanks, and noted for the future.

 

[Killingworth]

It's good news and proves that Community Rail Partnerships, working with the various rail bodies, can get things done. It requires an incredible amount of patience, tact, perseverance and constant monitoring of anything and everything in any way relevant to the railway and its community to ensure all are brought together for mutual benefit. Well done Esk Valley CRP and Northern.

Good that Sirius are buying in to this.