Which is each TOC's "poor relation" route?

[Urban Gateline]

I'm not sure if many people would think of 158s on a half-hourly service as a poor relation...

Possibly the other way round then, I was trying to get the point across that there is a lack of demand and surplus of service on this line. So I suppose it's the "poorest relation" in terms of actually making revenue!

 

[starrymarkb]

Do the train have to stop then to change power source? Longer term higher line speeds via Bristol may well negate any time saving on the Berks and Hants in the future and so electric power could be used as far as Bristol. Don't forget also that by 2035 the 22x trains will themselves be 30 years old.

I can't see HSTs lasting till 2035 though

 

[TEW]

FGW have already ruled out the use of 22x trains on long distance services to the South West on the basis that they are unsuitable.

 

[Rhydgaled]

ATW - Wrexham to Bidston anyone?

I would have said Fishguard until September 12th this year. Now I think I'd have to be HOWL, although the Fishguard daytime boat train is still a poor relation too (from LHCS to 158 to the current woefully inappropriate 150).

ATW,

surely Llandudno-Blaenau?

That's a good suggestion actually. If we are taking routes rather than an individual service it has to be a contest between the Conwy Valley line and the HOWL for the title of ATW's poor relation.

 

[466.networkers]

I would imagine Southeastern's would be the Sheerness branch.

As a Sheerness resident and heavy user of the line I'd say yes.

 

[northwichcat]

For Northern I'd say Chester-Altrincham-Manchester is very low priority.
* Pacers regularly appear despite it being one of their longest west side routes.
* When there's staff shortages they cancel services on this line (which has an hourly frequency) and continue to run half hour frequency services on other lines.
* When they are informed of special events on the line/engineering work on the Chester-Warrington-Manchester line likely to result hundreds of extra passengers, the official response they give is sometimes 'other lines will get more passengers than your line.' They've improved slightly in the last year on that though after one occasion where 300 people turned up for a single service and despite Northern knowing about the extra passengers they put a single 142 on.
* No extra ticket buying facilities have been added despite huge increases in passenger numbers. (Other lines have seen new ticket machines installed.)
* No PA systems or display screens on platforms (except Altrincham which was GMPTE funded) despite non-PTE funded stations getting them in other areas.

 

[anthony263]

ATW - Wrexham to Bidston anyone?

I would have to say for ATW it would be the Fishguard or Heart of wales line

 

[northwichcat]

For Northern, surely the Ellesmere Port-Helsby route with its pathetic parliamentary service, although I wouldn't be surprised if there's similar lines throught Northern's area.

That's really a case of the franchise specifying a parliamentary service. Northern provide ample capacity, use some of their better diesel stock and run services to time on that line.

 

[Southern]

Ramsgate - Charing X via Dover. I’m probably biased as it’s my local route but weekend services are always busy. They always have been but seem worse since the service was downgraded from half hourly to hourly. As it takes longer, I guess it will always be the “poor relation” compared to the route via Canterbury West.

 

[anthony263]

For FGW it may well be the Melksham route.

I agree with you there although FGW have said they are trying to get more stock so they can run a 2 hourly service and you do have that open acess operator who say they want to run a Westbury to Birmingham service.

 

[IanPooleTrains]

Well LM is definitely The Chase Line with possibly the Bedworth branch or The Marston Vale Line coming in a close second
Dont think VT have a poorly managed route but if they did, it might be Euston-Wales
XC has to be all of them
ATW, all of them
EMT, not too sure but would think it is gonna be between Liverpool - Norwich and Derby - Crewe
FTP is possibly gonna be Manchester - Hull
Northern not too sure
First Great Western, I'm gonna shout at Portsmouth - Cardiff but never been down that way but Exmouth - Paignton has to run it pretty close

Not too sure on the others though

 

[trentside]

I think the main one for EMT has to be Derby to Crewe. I think the Joint line services through Lincoln are a close second.

 

[gnolife]

I'd say for Northern, it would be Man Victoria to Huddersfield, but thats mostly due to the boozers using the Ale thing
For TransPennine, it would be the Edinburgh only train [as in, has no other portion] (sardine special is a fairly good description of it)
For East Midlands, I'd say that Nottingham - Lincoln is pretty bad (but problems at Newark cause that, I think)
for Virgin, I'd say the Mid Cheshire Line... Before anyone decides to come in and point out that this is a Northern service, This is due to the fact that the 3rd Manchester - London path came at the expense of the 1/2 hourly peak service, leaving 1tph cope with what is a fairly busy line.

 

[Daniel]

Looking at National Express East Anglia, I do think the West Anglian side is ranked below the Great Eastern - although there may be a poor service on the Sudbury branch, I still think 'GE' services are treated better than the 'WA'.

Specifically on the 'WA', I'd say the worst treated are the Lea Valley Local line stations. The services via Seven Sisters to Chesunt/Enfield Town are fairly good, but on the Tottenham Hale branch, local services don't seem too cared about. If a train is cancelled it'll stay cancelled, they'rell be no short tripping of the replacment unit, as that might (shock/horror) but 2 minutes on a Stansted train.

 

[Bedpan]

I was (honestly) thinking Hertford but I didn't want to risk saying so, only for someone to jump out and berate me on the importance of Herford connections!

Wimbledon loop came to mind initially, but come to think of it, it must be the Hertford loop. They seem to withdraw the service completely if East Coast trains need to be diverted onto the Hertford Loop, despite the electrical supply limitations you'd have thought that they would have been able to run some stoppers along it, however infrequent.

Also, I used to work in Hertford and if there were any office dos in London, I could leave work, drive home to Harpenden and then catch a train from there to London and still oftern arrive before people who had travelled directly from the office via Hertford North.

 

[Schnellzug]

First Great Western, I'm gonna shout at Portsmouth - Cardiff but never been down that way but Exmouth - Paignton has to run it pretty close

Not too sure on the others though

Exmouth-Paignton? Well, the local service was never very frequent or regular in BR days and now it's hourly between Exmouth & Paignton, and half-hourly Exmouth-Exeter, which i really don't think peopel can reasonably complain about. The rolling stock, now, may be a differnet matter; but that's largely out of the hands of the operator, isn't it.

I'd suggest Bristol-Weymouth, as mentioned in another thread recently; rolling stock isn't bad, with 158s used if they can spare any, but the timetable is strangely irregular, with 2 or 3 hour gaps.

 

[blakey1152]

As a Sheerness resident and heavy user of the line I'd say yes.

Personally, I believe Southeasterns poor relation route is the entire network except for HS1

During all that snow last year everyone got treated to a reduced service with hardly any trains except of course HS1 which ran to a virtually normal timetable!!!!

 

[AlterEgo]

During all that snow last year everyone got treated to a reduced service with hardly any trains except of course HS1 which ran to a virtually normal timetable!!!!

Hardly SE's fault! Their entire network, except HS1, is third rail, which suffers terribly in the snow.

 

[466.networkers]

Personally, I believe Southeasterns poor relation route is the entire network except for HS1

During all that snow last year everyone got treated to a reduced service with hardly any trains except of course HS1 which ran to a virtually normal timetable!!!!

Or no trains at all, such as the Sheerness Line - I think it was 2 weeks or more with buses and no trains ...

Hardly SE's fault! Their entire network, except HS1, is third rail, which suffers terribly in the snow.

Not all HS1 is in the snow - HS1 starts from the spur just after Gravesend - up until that the Class 395s run on normal NR metals.

The reason why the HS1 route and trains ran well was because the stock is newer and seems to be able to cope better in adverse weather and rail conditions.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Or no trains at all, such as the Sheerness Line - I think it was 2 weeks or more with buses and no trains ...



Not all HS1 is in the snow - HS1 starts from the spur just after Gravesend - up until that the Class 395s run on normal NR metals.

The reason why the HS1 route and trains ran well was because the stock is newer and seems to be able to cope better in adverse weather and rail conditions.

Heated 3d rail pcik up shoes on the 395 + their power explains some of that !

 

[gg1]

Another LM suggestion: Stratford to Birmingham, the route really should have more than 1tph.

 

[Class172]

Another LM suggestion: Stratford to Birmingham, the route really should have more than 1tph.

And Birmingham New St - Worcester, but that's a separate matter.

 

[NXEA!]

Looking at National Express East Anglia, I do think the West Anglian side is ranked below the Great Eastern - although there may be a poor service on the Sudbury branch, I still think 'GE' services are treated better than the 'WA'.

Specifically on the 'WA', I'd say the worst treated are the Lea Valley Local line stations. The services via Seven Sisters to Chesunt/Enfield Town are fairly good, but on the Tottenham Hale branch, local services don't seem too cared about. If a train is cancelled it'll stay cancelled, they'rell be no short tripping of the replacment unit, as that might (shock/horror) but 2 minutes on a Stansted train.

As a daily user of the Sudbury branch, I wouldn't say the hourly service makes it a poor relation at all to be honest. However, I do think there's more they could do with the line, for instance extend it to Colchester every hour, which still only needs 1 156, and makes it a hell of a lot more use, and makes it even more competitive with the buses. Saying that, the turn around times would be a bit tight, 3 minutes at each end or that's what I've worked out. Its surprised me why they haven't done it before, its pathable between Marks Tey to Sudbury or as far as I can tell it is. There's got to be an explanation as to why, I'm sure they would've thought about it. Anyway, on NXEA I'd say Walton-on-the-Naze and Harwich are poor relations, as they no longer have an all day London service. Also, Ipswich-Peterborough is only 2 hourly, and there doesn't seem to be any aspiration's to improve this as far as I'm aware.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

makes it even more competitive with the buses. .

Buses ? aren't they all tucked up in bed by 6pm in Sudbury ?

 

[tbtc]

Looking at National Express East Anglia, I do think the West Anglian side is ranked below the Great Eastern - although there may be a poor service on the Sudbury branch, I still think 'GE' services are treated better than the 'WA'.

Specifically on the 'WA', I'd say the worst treated are the Lea Valley Local line stations. The services via Seven Sisters to Chesunt/Enfield Town are fairly good, but on the Tottenham Hale branch, local services don't seem too cared about. If a train is cancelled it'll stay cancelled, they'rell be no short tripping of the replacment unit, as that might (shock/horror) but 2 minutes on a Stansted train.

Out of interest, in WAGN days, do you think that WA or GN was the "least important"?

 

[Aictos]

Wimbledon loop came to mind initially, but come to think of it, it must be the Hertford loop. They seem to withdraw the service completely if East Coast trains need to be diverted onto the Hertford Loop, despite the electrical supply limitations you'd have thought that they would have been able to run some stoppers along it, however infrequent.

Also, I used to work in Hertford and if there were any office dos in London, I could leave work, drive home to Harpenden and then catch a train from there to London and still oftern arrive before people who had travelled directly from the office via Hertford North.

I gave feedback once to a manager asking why when there are planned diversions via Hertford FCC can operate a hourly shuttle between London and Hertford with a bus for passengers going onto Stevenage and then when there is disruption, there's no service.

Got told it's the limitations of the OHL which prevents any kind of shuttle being used.

One passenger quite rightly commented one day that as soon as there's disruption and trains are diverted via Hertford then the service goes to pot to their surprise I agreed with them.

 

[Ivo]

Regarding GE, one line it certainly is not is the Crouch Valley Line. Does it really need the increase? I might put that in the other thread actually...

Anyway, I would suggest that the poor relation with GE is basically everything around Colchester! None of Sudbury, Walton, Harwich and Clacton get what they should do. I would suggest electrifying Sudbury (eliminating the island in the area) and running through trains to Walton, using the fast stopping pattern, giving Harwich a through service to Londion (again), and giving Clacton a second service every hour (using the slow stopping pattern). Thus, Sudbury has a link to Colchester, walton has a faster link to Colchester, Harwich has a through service to London and Clacton has 2tph.

 

[313103]

London Overgrounds poor relation has to be The Watford Junction to Euston service, which apart from the addition of class 378s this has had no improvement to times and on early morning is actually worse then it was under Sileverlink.

 

[466.networkers]

Heated 3d rail pcik up shoes on the 395 + their power explains some of that !

Didn't know that, explains why they ran ECS at times during the snow fall!

 

[starrymarkb]

Exmouth-Paignton? Well, the local service was never very frequent or regular in BR days and now it's hourly between Exmouth & Paignton, and half-hourly Exmouth-Exeter, which i really don't think peopel can reasonably complain about. The rolling stock, now, may be a differnet matter; but that's largely out of the hands of the operator, isn't it.

I'd suggest Bristol-Weymouth, as mentioned in another thread recently; rolling stock isn't bad, with 158s used if they can spare any, but the timetable is strangely irregular, with 2 or 3 hour gaps.

Rexmouth to Exeter the pacers actually improved the service as they now run doubled up for much of the day, before the 150s could be very full especially in the summer and lone 153s were to be avoided, the double pacer swallows the crowds much better.