Whistle boards and whistle usage at railway crossings

[Felim_Doyle]

I live between the two Aylesbury to London Marylebone lines via Amersham and via High Wycombe with the latter being in view and earshot from my home. These lines are both used by Chiltern Railways and the High Wycombe line also carries freight services operated by Freightliner and DB Schenker.

The line nearest to my home is the Aylesbury to Little Kimble section of the High Wycombe line and there are a few crossings nearby of the ‘footpath and bridleway crossings’ variety with wooden stiles on either side. There used to be three in fairly quick succession but one was closed off a few years ago most probably because the entry points to the line were not directly opposite each other necessitating walking along the track for a few metres before reaching the exit point on the other side. There are also two gated crossings for maintenance crew access to the line and agricultural vehicle access to neighbouring fields.

Both when at home and when I have been out for walks I have observed some trains in the northbound Aylesbury direction passing the whistle board† without sounding an audible warning. Furthermore, southbound Princes Risborough trains never ‘whistle’ although I can't be sure if there is a whistle board† in that direction without trespassing on the line.

It seems to me that, with so many pedestrian and vehicle access points in such a short section of track, it should be mandatory to sound an audible warning multiple times. Am I missing something or is this not normally the case in such situations?

I am also concerned at the occasionally lax behaviour of drivers on that section of track although this subject may warrant a thread of its own.

In one instance I observed the driver of a passenger train passing the northbound whistle board† and the crossing without sounding an audible warning or even looking up from his newspaper!

In another case a southbound freight train was approaching so I gave a casual wave to the driver but, because of glare from the windscreen, I was unable to see him until the train was passing at which point I could see through the side window of the cab that the driver was busy selecting tracks on his iPod!

Generally speaking if you wave to a driver they will acknowledge and wave back but, when they don't, it is usually because they haven't been looking!

Surely there are strict rules about keeping an eye on the track ahead and observing whistle boards† especially where there are multiple crossings.

†Whistle Boards

 

[455driver]

So your first post is to moan about drivers reading papers and listening to ipods while driving and also being lax (whatever that means)!

You will fit in just fine on here! :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Generally speaking if you wave to a driver they will acknowledge and wave back but, when they don't, it is usually because they haven't been looking!

Or they are concentrating on something more important than a random bloke waving at them, you know maybe the railway line in front of them! :roll:

 

[O L Leigh]

Some serious allegations in there.

Firstly, I don't always wave back to people on the lineside but that doesn't mean that I haven't seen them or that I'm inattentive.

Secondly, it has been my own observation that it is not always possible to be certain what you can see through the windows of a passing train. Are you sure that the drivers you saw were reading the paper or selecting tracks on their iPod, especially as you concede that it's not always possible to see whether or not a driver has waved back at you.

As for the need to sound the horn, well there are quiet hours between 2300 and 0700. Drivers do not need to sound the horn at these times for whistle boards, although they may do so if they feel it is needed.

However, if you are sufficiently concerned about the safety of the crossings along this stretch of line I would recommend that you write to Nitwit Rail outlining your worries. Personally I wouldn't make a big issue about driver attentiveness, as frankly I believe you are on shaky ground on that point. However, it might be worth asking them to remind train operators on this route about the whistle boards (if, indeed, there are any) and the need to sound the horn.

But it is just as possible that the line is not as risky as you suggest. The existence of crossings does not automatically mean that there needs to be a whistle board. If the line of sight is adequate for crossing users to see an approaching train then a board is not required.

O L Leigh

 

[daveswest]

Good luck with the friendly responses from Train Drivers Felim !

 

[David Barrett]

Is this really the place for this type of allegation? As has already been pointed out there are better and more appropriate channels for your concerns, especially if you are quite certian that what you perceived during your observations is true. This is a very open and public forum, would you consider it wise to run the risk of something like this finding its way to the media, whipping up a storm, and it was later established through proper investigation that what you thought you saw turned out to be something entirely different? The credibility of the companies concerned and moreover that of their their staffs would needlessly take a severe hit, and so would yours.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are you sure it was a driver and not a guard you were seeing? Guards would be perfectly entitled to sit in the back cab and read a paper if all their other duties were attended to.

 

[Mojo]

Chiltern Railways services to Aylesbury are Driver Only, except for the Bubble Cars.

 

[A-driver]

Sorry but I don't believe your allegations for a second. Perhaps years and years ago I would think you may have a point but nowadays no.

I put it to you that you that you are just trolling.

No driver would seriously risk their job and prosecution by reading a paper or using an iPod. Even if they were to risk it they would at least hide it on approach to a busy foot crossing/ station etc.

If you seriously saw a driver doing something like that then I would imagine they were actually looking at a diagram or similar which is allowed.

Quite how you could tell that a driver of a moving train was selecting a track in an iPod is beyond me. They don't have the biggest screen and to be able to observe them scrolling through music tracks from ground level whilst they move past, even at low speeds, must mean you have super human eyesight!

As for whistling at crossings, not all have whistle boards. If sighting is good then there is no need for them. I can think of a few crossing with only boards in one direction due to curvature/sighting etc. and at some crossings with boards and good views I won't always bother to whistle if I can see 100 % that it is clear and no one is about.

But as for your allegations they are absolute rubbish. I'm fairly certain you are making up or exaggerating them to get a driver bashing post in here. If you did genuinely see something like that then surely you would contact the rail operator concerned rather than bother to join an Internet forum and tell everyone here about it?

 

[A-driver]

Chiltern Railways services to Aylesbury are Driver Only, except for the Bubble Cars.

You still get drivers passing back cab. I hardly ever travel in the passenger bit when in uniform. I head straight to the back cab, iPod plugged in and newspaper out.

 

[W230]

I head straight to the back cab, iPod plugged in and newspaper out.

 

[GB]

Good luck with the friendly responses from Train Drivers Felim !

I would expect any railway professional to look at this thread with a high degree of suspicion and large quantity of salt!

 

[DarloRich]

I live between the two Aylesbury to London Marylebone lines via Amersham and via High Wycombe with the latter being in view and earshot from my home. These lines are both used by Chiltern Railways and the High Wycombe line also carries freight services operated by Freightliner and DB Schenker.

The line nearest to my home is the Aylesbury to Little Kimble section of the High Wycombe line and there are a few crossings nearby of the ‘footpath and bridleway crossings’ variety with wooden stiles on either side. There used to be three in fairly quick succession but one was closed off a few years ago most probably because the entry points to the line were not directly opposite each other necessitating walking along the track for a few metres before reaching the exit point on the other side. There are also two gated crossings for maintenance crew access to the line and agricultural vehicle access to neighbouring fields.

Both when at home and when I have been out for walks I have observed some trains in the northbound Aylesbury direction passing the whistle board† without sounding an audible warning. Furthermore, southbound Princes Risborough trains never ‘whistle’ although I can't be sure if there is a whistle board† in that direction without trespassing on the line.

It seems to me that, with so many pedestrian and vehicle access points in such a short section of track, it should be mandatory to sound an audible warning multiple times. Am I missing something or is this not normally the case in such situations?

I am also concerned at the occasionally lax behaviour of drivers on that section of track although this subject may warrant a thread of its own.

In one instance I observed the driver of a passenger train passing the northbound whistle board† and the crossing without sounding an audible warning or even looking up from his newspaper!

In another case a southbound freight train was approaching so I gave a casual wave to the driver but, because of glare from the windscreen, I was unable to see him until the train was passing at which point I could see through the side window of the cab that the driver was busy selecting tracks on his iPod!

Generally speaking if you wave to a driver they will acknowledge and wave back but, when they don't, it is usually because they haven't been looking!

Surely there are strict rules about keeping an eye on the track ahead and observing whistle boards† especially where there are multiple crossings.

†Whistle Boards

I am extremely interested in this thread – perhaps you could link us a google map showing the exact location of the crossings.

 

[jon0844]

From such a high vantage point, no driver is going to miss anyone on the line ahead or to the side, unless they deliberately don't want to be seen!

And from so low down on the ground, as against a platform, I'd imagine it hard to see what a driver was doing as you'd only see the upper body and head - and even that view might be restricted somewhat.

I'm not saying every driver is perfect (I am sure they are not, and even other drivers on here would agree and may know some bad apples) but you're not in a very good position to see at a crossing.. and, as said, not all crossings need trains to whistle.

One crossing near where my parents have an office (at the end of Cadmore Lane, Cheshunt) doesn't have trains making any noise - because visibility is huge in both directions. The only 'danger' could be for trains going north, where someone crossing sees headlights at Cheshunt station, and assumes the train might be stopped when it is actually approaching - at speed.

But people shouldn't be crossing if they can see a train, even if it turns out the train was stopped and it means waiting unnecessarily.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

When I saw this thread, I thought it was going to be a "Why do the trains always sound their horns when I'm trying to sleep/read/knit/whatever?" type thing... And there's been 2 threads about horns/whistles in one day!

But yeah, good luck with the responses from the drivers on here!

 

[Muzer]

On a similar (but hopefully less controversial) topic, what sort of risk assessment has been done on the "no horns 2300-0700" rule? I mean, is it really worth a bit of extra noise pollution (that I don't doubt people could get used to) for the reduction in safety? Surely if there's a whistle board at a footpath crossing it's because (in many cases) there won't be enough visibility to safely go by sight alone.

(Sometimes I listen at my window whilst looking at live train movements, and can hear trains sound their horn as they go past a whistle board near Swaythling - some, but by no means all, seem to be silent between these hours. Some I don't hear during the day, but (since I'm not right next to the railway) I'm willing to put that down to wind direction or different conventions in when they sound their horn (I've heard that there's no consensus on whether you sound your horn when you first see the board or when you pass it - drivers clarifying if this is true would be much appreciated))

 

[DownSouth]

On a similar (but hopefully less controversial) topic, what sort of risk assessment has been done on the "no horns 2300-0700" rule? I mean, is it really worth a bit of extra noise pollution (that I don't doubt people could get used to) for the reduction in safety? Surely if there's a whistle board at a footpath crossing it's because (in many cases) there won't be enough visibility to safely go by sight alone.

Visibility of trains to pedestrians should be equal or even better at night, with train headlights penetrating much further (including a small way around curves) during darkness than it does during daylight hours.

Are alternating ditchlights used on the approaches to level crossings in Britain?

 

[TDK]

Both when at home and when I have been out for walks I have observed some trains in the northbound Aylesbury direction passing the whistle board† without sounding an audible warning. Furthermore, southbound Princes Risborough trains never ‘whistle’ although I can't be sure if there is a whistle board† in that direction without trespassing on the line.

At what time of day?

It seems to me that, with so many pedestrian and vehicle access points in such a short section of track, it should be mandatory to sound an audible warning multiple times. Am I missing something or is this not normally the case in such situations?

You "seem" wrong, it is only mandatory for a train driver to sound the warning horn with a single low tone at a whistle board, this was reduced from 2 tones a few years back because of whining residents who chose to buy houses by the railway and then complain about noise pollution, other restrictions were also omitted from the times when a driver should use the warning horn.

In one instance I observed the driver of a passenger train passing the northbound whistle board† and the crossing without sounding an audible warning or even looking up from his newspaper!

And your evidence is?

In another case a southbound freight train was approaching so I gave a casual wave to the driver but, because of glare from the windscreen, I was unable to see him until the train was passing at which point I could see through the side window of the cab that the driver was busy selecting tracks on his iPod!

You must have exceptional selective vision not to see the driver and then actually see him selecting tracks from his iPod at 40mph? I think you are telling lies

Generally speaking if you wave to a driver they will acknowledge and wave back but, when they don't, it is usually because they haven't been looking!

Wrong again, it is not mandatory for a driver to wave at anyone in fact it is discouraged by management in case it distracts the driver.

Surely there are strict rules about keeping an eye on the track ahead and observing whistle boards† especially where there are multiple crossings.

The driver's rule book is available online if you need to check on the rules, if a driver waves at you then they are taking their eyes off the track, you cannot have it both ways

 

[A-driver]

So I take it that we can safely assume from the lack of any other postings from this person that he is infact a troll and just put this post up to try and get a reaction from the staff on here?

Anyone who works in the industry will know that drivers reading papers and using iPods dosnt happen, sorry but along with using mobile phones and drinking on duty they are all things which train drivers don't do...I earn 45k a year for a 4 day week, excellent job security, paid breaks and as much overtime as I want. I am hardly likely to risk all that because I can't wait until my next turnaround or break to skim through the newspaper.

Perhaps this thread should be locked or deleted as it's pretty pointless? Just a load of made up rubbish from a poster who has never posted before. A classic example of an internet troll.

 

[DXMachina]

Anyone who works in the industry will know that drivers reading papers and using iPods dosnt happen, sorry but along with using mobile phones and drinking on duty they are all things which train drivers don't do....

I make no comment on the original poster.
I am however willing to testify on here to having seen Metropolitan line drivers using mobile phones while driving S-Stock overground, on the route to Amersham.

And before you ask, I wont be making formal complaints or submitting evidence, firstly as no incidents occurred as a result, secondly as I live a few doors down from a member of that staff and like a quiet life, and thirdly as I dont have the lightning reflexes needed to get my phone out and take a photo in the few seconds you get as one passes !

No disrespect to the vast majority of drivers who I never doubt are professional, cautious and careful. But every pack of cards has a few jokers.

 

[TOCDriver]

LOL at this thread!

 

[Railsigns]

†Whistle Boards

<hotlinked image snipped>

Please don't hotlink directly to images on my website. That is considered bad form.

In any case, nobody will see the image in your post unless it was already present in their web cache.

 

[TOCDriver]

<hotlinked image snipped>

Please don't hotlink directly to images on my website. That is considered bad form.

In any case, nobody will see the image in your post unless it was already present in their web cache.

That's a very impressive site you have there, Railsigns

 

[Railsigns]

That's a very impressive site you have there, Railsigns

Thank you.

 

[455driver]

I am however willing to testify on here to having seen Metropolitan line drivers using mobile phones while driving S-Stock overground, on the route to Amersham.

What make of mobile phone was it?

I mean if you saw it so well you must have been able to see the make of phone!
Or could it have been that the driver was making a PA announcement or he was in contact with the signalman on the radio, but oh no it was definitely a mobile phone! :roll:

 

[DXMachina]

What make of mobile phone was it?

I mean if you saw it so well you must have been able to see the make of phone!
Or could it have been that the driver was making a PA announcement or he was in contact with the signalman on the radio, but oh no it was definitely a mobile phone! :roll:

Don't take the whatsit.. when I am standing on a platform and a train comes past me decelerating, I can tell the difference between an Apple iPhone 4 pressed to the drivers EAR, in one hand, while he chats, and a hand-held microphone (is that what internal tannoy uses?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To be fair it could have been a Apple iPhone 4S - hard to tell apart through a glass window

 

[A-driver]

I can tell the difference between an Apple iPhone 4 pressed to the drivers EAR, in one hand, while he chats, and a hand-held microphone (is that what internal tannoy uses?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, it's not. The tanoy uses a phone. Not a handheld mic.

 

[DXMachina]

A quick google search proves that the phone handset used for the tannoy in S-Stock looks nothing like a mobile phone, and especially nothing like the exquisite metal-and-lucite design of the iPhone 4 or 4S

I did briefly consider leaping onto the side of the moving train, wrestling the door open and seizing the mobile to check exactly what brand and model it was, in case this was demanded of me by desperate-to-protect-their-profession drivers on a semi-anonymous forum over a year later, but I'm overly concerned with etiquette and wasnt sure if the conventions of rail travel allowed for this

 

[A-driver]

A quick google search proves that the phone handset used for the tannoy in S-Stock looks nothing like a mobile phone, and especially nothing like the exquisite metal-and-lucite design of the iPhone 4 or 4S

I did briefly consider leaping onto the side of the moving train, wrestling the door open and seizing the mobile to check exactly what brand and model it was, in case this was demanded of me by desperate-to-protect-their-profession drivers on a semi-anonymous forum over a year later, but I'm overly concerned with etiquette and wasnt sure if the conventions of rail travel allowed for this

Mobile use on mainline trains which are in motion is a definite no-no. Many companies allow it when the train is at a stand. On the underground I'm fairly certain that it (at least used to be) is less frowned upon. I used to live on the east London line and it was very common to see drivers with Bluetooth headsets in. Things may have changed but I am not certain phone use was actually banned on the underground.

And I wouldn't say we are desperate to protect our profession in the way you describe. The OP of this thread is clearly talking rubbish and there is no way what he says is true. Your post may well be true, however it is worth considering that if you see a driver on a phone it may well be the PA, cab-cab, passcom or radio. Clearly if you were on a platform you may have seen that it was a mobile. As I say, when this occurred it may not have been a problem to use a mobile in the cab. It's only recently become such a taboo on the roads.

 

[martybabes]

Mobile use on mainline trains which are in motion is a definite no-no. Many companies allow it when the train is at a stand. On the underground I'm fairly certain that it (at least used to be) is less frowned upon. I used to live on the east London line and it was very common to see drivers with Bluetooth headsets in. Things may have changed but I am not certain phone use was actually banned on the underground.

And I wouldn't say we are desperate to protect our profession in the way you describe. The OP of this thread is clearly talking rubbish and there is no way what he says is true. Your post may well be true, however it is worth considering that if you see a driver on a phone it may well be the PA, cab-cab, passcom or radio. Clearly if you were on a platform you may have seen that it was a mobile. As I say, when this occurred it may not have been a problem to use a mobile in the cab. It's only recently become such a taboo on the roads.

Using a mobile phone while driving a car is a criminal offence. But is still happens. And frequently too.

 

[A-driver]

Using a mobile phone while driving a car is a criminal offence. But is still happens. And frequently too.

What I said was that it is a recent thing. It used to be less of an issue until recently.

And it's far less common in the railways as there are stricter controls. On the freight some companies have trialled giving managers scanners so they can get in the cab and scan for any mobiles switched on (obviously won't work on passenger trains ) however if a toc suspects you of using a mobile they could look through mobile phone records.