Why can’t we have trains like this in the UK?

[Mogz]

First railjet 2 in passenger service

On 22 March 2024, ÖBB inaugurated service for the first railjet of the new generation.

www.railvolution.net

ÖBB’s new Railjet 2 train in Austria.

“On 22 March 2024, ÖBB inaugurated service for the first railjet of the new generation. The new train will initially operate on the Wien - Feldkirch route. Excluding the locomotive, the nine-car NMU is around 240 m long and offers 532 seats. It has two first-class cars with business class sections, an on-board restaurant with seating, four second-class (economy class) cars, a multifunctional economy class car, and an economy class driving trailer.

The railjet 2 was developed and is being built by Siemens Mobility in Wien and is based on the same platform used by the new nightjet units. ÖBB originally ordered eight railjet 2 units in 2018, but has in December 2023 ordered 19 more.

Andreas Matthä, CEO ÖBB Holding: “We are delighted that we’re expanding our ÖBB long-distance fleet with 19 more new-generation Railjets. People are traveling more and many prefer to do so by train. In response to this development, which is beneficial for the environment and climate, we are increasing the number of modern trains. With the new travel experience at the Brenner Pass, we are able to further enhance the popularity of this route. The new generation of Railjets offers our passengers a truly first-class travel experience and raises rail comfort to a new level.”

Depending on their preference, passengers have a choice of seating: in compartments, in open-plan cars, or in raised seating areas with slightly higher seat heights. Passengers preferring a quieter ride can sit in designated quiet zones, while families can use the family zones with game board tables. Seat backrests without gaps provide greater privacy between the seat rows, so passengers can, for example, work on their laptops undisturbed. WiFi service is offered throughout the train, and a clear passenger information system is provided on ceiling-mounted displays and other screens.

Passenger comfort is further enhanced by an interior lighting concept that automatically adjusts to the time of day. Both the light color and the temperature of the compartments can be individually adjusted. The new double seats are equipped with folding center armrests, allowing them to be converted into a small sofa if capacity is available. Each seat row is also equipped with three charging options: a USB port, wireless NFC charging, and a 230-volt power outlet. Luggage can be stored securely and unattended in spaces accessed via NFC or individual numerical codes.

For passengers with limited mobility, the train has three wheelchair spaces and barrier-free access via a platform-level, extra-wide entrance in the multifunctional car. Space for storing skis and snowboards is available in the multifunctional car as well, along with six bicycle spaces.”

Brand new.

Has all the stuff we used to have in the UK like restaurants and compartments that we are told we can’t have any more.

Answers on a postcard as to why we can’t have things like this on our long distance services in the UK in 2024…

 

[JonathanH]

Answers on a postcard as to why we can’t have things like this on our long distance services in the UK in 2024…

We have a different market and need to prioritise capacity for people to sit down.

 

[D6975]

I suspect the main reason is....


££££££££££

 

[lachlan]

Not enough capacity. Something like this would be ideal for the Scottish Highlands routes but there's probably infrastructure constraints there too

 

[yorkie]

First railjet 2 in passenger service

On 22 March 2024, ÖBB inaugurated service for the first railjet of the new generation.

www.railvolution.net

ÖBB’s new Railjet 2 train in Austria.

Brand new.

Has all the stuff we used to have in the UK like restaurants and compartments that we are told we can’t have any more.

We don't prioritise making public transport affordable or high quality in this country.

Instead, the budgets and policies are generally for higher density seating, less comfortable seats, higher fares to deter too many people from travelling, and shorter formations to keep leasing costs down.

Rail travel in countries like Switzerland, Germany and Austria is how we should be doing things, but there is no way we ever will get that in the UK.

 

[mangyiscute]

We don't prioritise making public transport affordable or high quality in this country.

Instead, the budgets and policies are generally for higher density seating, less comfortable seats, higher fares to deter too many people from travelling, and shorter formations to keep leasing costs down.

Rail travel in countries like Switzerland, Germany and Austria is how we should be doing things, but there is no way we ever will get that in the UK.

I'd hate the UK to get Germany's current railways

 

[Purple Train]

Rail travel in countries like Switzerland, Germany and Austria is how we should be doing things, but there is no way we ever will get that in the UK.

Switzerland, yes. Austria, yes. But Deutsche Bahn is in a bit of a state, is it not?

It's a fundamental cultural issue, not just one of government spending.

 

[Mikey C]

Those compartment seats don't look very comfortable to me.

 

[Sorcerer]

Restaurants and compartments are still a thing on the Caledonian Sleeper, but on much of the network where you'd find them (intercity services) the capacity is a higher priority because of how congested the network is. We could bring them back if we were willing to invest in improvements to the infrastructure, but good luck getting that with an anti-rail government like this one. I concur with those saying that the UK should follow Switzerland and Austria's model of doing things.

 

[RT4038]

It's a fundamental cultural issue, not just one of government spending.

Quite. Our population densities are simply not comparable. We have also, for right or wrong, prioritised (notional) personal wealth and lifestyle over funding public services (the Anglo-American model?) and once this genie has been released it likely would be well nigh impossible to get it back, without seismic change.

 

[Sorcerer]

Quite. Our population densities are simply not comparable. We have also, for right or wrong, prioritised (notional) personal wealth and lifestyle over funding public services (the Anglo-American model?) and once this genie has been released it likely would be well nigh impossible to get it back, without seismic change.

Demonstrably this isn't true. According to Worldometer, these are the population densities of Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the UK respectively.

The population density in Germany is 239 per Km2 (619 people per mi2).

The population density in Austria is 109 per Km2 (282 people per mi2).

The population density in Switzerland is 223 per Km2 (577 people per mi2).

The population density in the United Kingdom is 280 per Km2 (725 people per mi2).

Now Austria in this case is the odd one out being significantly lower in terms of population density, but for Germany and Switzerland they are arguably quite comparable to the UK when it comes to talking about railways. I think this is why posters have referenced them as an example for the UK to follow. I do think your second point of attitude towards funding public services is quite true though because a lot of attitudes I've noticed seem to lean more favourably towards car ownership, especially with the current government's desire to "improve" the motorist experience.

 

[HSTEd]

Simply, compartments were abandoned because of safety concerns. I believe there was a high profile murder in compartment stock?

Otherwise I don't really see what's so special about this train.
It just looks like a train on the inside, maybe roomier but thats because they aren't stuck with an awful loading gauge.

EDIT:
Fixing the loading gauge would require essentially abandoning the railway and building a new one.

 

[yorksrob]

Quite. Our population densities are simply not comparable. We have also, for right or wrong, prioritised (notional) personal wealth and lifestyle over funding public services (the Anglo-American model?) and once this genie has been released it likely would be well nigh impossible to get it back, without seismic change.

Except we don't seem to end up more personally wealthy anyway than those comparable countries.

 

[Starmill]

Compartments often don't have a very good view out of the window. So they're most useful only as a low proportion of the space on trains and likely with several dedicated as "quiet zones".

 

[Trainbike46]

First railjet 2 in passenger service

On 22 March 2024, ÖBB inaugurated service for the first railjet of the new generation.

www.railvolution.net

ÖBB’s new Railjet 2 train in Austria.

Brand new.

Has all the stuff we used to have in the UK like restaurants and compartments that we are told we can’t have any more.

Answers on a postcard as to why we can’t have things like this on our long distance services in the UK in 2024…

The way I see it there's a few contributors:
- Attitude to funding public services in general (and the railway in particular)
- Smaller loading gauge makes some things harder to fit
- Need to pack in more seats to increase capacity

Also, I would argue that the UK does in fact still have "restaurant cars" on premier IC services, in the form of buffet/bar/shop coaches, as well as first class food service on LNER, and Pullman Dining on certain services - and on quieter services Austria also doesn't offer restaurant cars, so you should be comparing to GWR/LNER/Avanti IC services. XC may also be a comparison, but as we all know they're not great

 

[sprunt]

Except we don't seem to end up more personally wealthy anyway than those comparable countries.

You and I don't. The people who are doing the prioritising do.

 

[yorksrob]

You and I don't. The people who are doing the prioritising do.

Quite !

 

[30907]

Compartments often don't have a very good view out of the window. So they're most useful only as a low proportion of the space on trains and likely with several dedicated as "quiet zones".

It's interesting that the new RJ have them, at the cost of 4 seats per 2nd class coach (1sts have the premium Business compartments instead). It makes good use of the awkward high-floor area between the (low-floor) door and the vehicle end.

As compartments in 2nd have been out of fashion everywhere for decades, I can't help feeling the decision was made because a 16-seat mini-saloon up a couple of steps would have been underused - making a virtue of necessity is the phrase that comes to mind

I look forward to trying one sometime.

 

[RT4038]

Demonstrably this isn't true. According to Worldometer, these are the population densities of Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the UK respectively.






Now Austria in this case is the odd one out being significantly lower in terms of population density, but for Germany and Switzerland they are arguably quite comparable to the UK when it comes to talking about railways. I think this is why posters have referenced them as an example for the UK to follow. I do think your second point of attitude towards funding public services is quite true though because a lot of attitudes I've noticed seem to lean more favourably towards car ownership, especially with the current government's desire to "improve" the motorist experience.

The OP was referring to the RailJet2 trains of Austria.

Except we don't seem to end up more personally wealthy anyway than those comparable countries.

Not disagreeing with you (which is why I included the word 'notionally' = house values), but this is the road we have gone down and it would be very difficult to go back and take another.

 

[Topological]

I checked the link expecting something that was completely different from the UK. However, the normal carriages just look normal. The compartments do not look like anything special and the restaurant car is basic.

We could create restaurant cars by swapping the half carriage into a more basic table and side bar arrangement like on the railjet, but why would we? Catering has moved on and we dont have sit down meals on trains on the types of journey that are commonly made in the UK. As has already been mentioned, some operators do provide closer to a restaurant car on some longer distance services. When the same stock is used on a shorter journey (like London to Manchester vice London to Glasgow, or Paddington to Oxford vice Paddington to Penzance) the accommodation used as the "restaurant" is easily saleable as a normal seat. IF the Austrians want to have that service for journeys of 2 hours or less then that is their choice, but I think most routes in the UK do not really suit restaurants.

Issues with compartments have been raised. I cannot see what real benefit compartments bring unless your group actually fills a compartment. In cases where you are sharing a compartment I would see the closed space could only bring disadvantage.

To me, the UK focus on capacity and interoperability is the correct one.

 

[Justin Smith]

Not enough capacity. Something like this would be ideal for the Scottish Highlands routes but there's probably infrastructure constraints there too

I don't know if you spotted it but for the 2nd class economy airline seating the view out of the window for half the seats is poor. All the seats need moving back a foot or so relative to the windows.

 

[stuu]

Has all the stuff we used to have in the UK like restaurants and compartments that we are told we can’t have any more.

Compartments are horrible, I don't know why anyone would want to be in one, unless you have a group which fills it. Very glad they have gone

 

[Starmill]

Compartments are horrible, I don't know why anyone would want to be in one, unless you have a group which fills it. Very glad they have gone

I can understand a certain appeal to those who want a quiet zone that's actually kept quiet. But there are other ways that could be achieved of course, such as in multiple units having a full-width compartment behind every cab. Some ICE sets have quiet zones there.

 

[Mikey C]

Demonstrably this isn't true. According to Worldometer, these are the population densities of Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the UK respectively.

Population densities per country are meaningless though, as there are massive regional variations within each country, especially the UK. The population density in the highlands will be tiny when compared with London and the home counties for example.

Just splitting by nation gives
England 438 per Km2
Wales 151
N Ireland 141
Scotland 70

While London has a density of 5,640 per km2!

Source

Population estimates for the UK, England, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland - Office for National Statistics

National and subnational mid-year population estimates for the UK and its constituent countries by administrative area, age, and sex.

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[ac6000cw]

I generally dislike compartments too, even on heritage railways (and I'm old enough to have travelled in them when they were still around on UK mainline railways).

To me, the UK focus on capacity and interoperability is the correct one.

I agree.

BTW, in terms of international comparisons based on 2019 passenger-km statistics, in Western Europe the UK was 'middle of the pack' in terms of rail modal share of inland passenger transport (rail/bus/coach/car, excluding metro/light rail) with around an 8.5% share. According to the UK historical transport statistics, that share basically doubled between 1994 and 2019, so we must have done something right...

Switzerland was top with 20% followed by Austria 13.9%, Sweden 12.2%, Netherlands 11.2%, then France, Slovakia, Czech Republic all around 10%, Germany 9.3% then the UK on 8.5%. EU average was 8.1%.

(Data from: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/datab...efault/table?lang=en&category=tran.tran_hv_ms )

 

[Sorcerer]

Population densities per country are meaningless though, as there are massive regional variations within each country, especially the UK. The population density in the highlands will be tiny when compared with London and the home counties for example.

But the same applies to Switzerland in that most of the population live in the Swiss Plateau region while it is considerably less so in the Alps region. In both the UK and Switzerland though the railways are more extensive where there are more people which is why the two networks are comparable and why SBB is one of the networks the UK can model.

 

[Turtle]

Simply, compartments were abandoned because of safety concerns. I believe there was a high profile murder in compartment stock?

Otherwise I don't really see what's so special about this train.
It just looks like a train on the inside, maybe roomier but thats because they aren't stuck with an awful loading gauge.

EDIT:
Fixing the loading gauge would require essentially abandoning the railway and building a new one.

I recollect there was such a murder on Southern Region SE Division. However, this was non-corridor compartment stock which was a bit dodgy, one of the reasons there were Ladies Only compartments.

 

[HSTEd]

But the same applies to Switzerland in that most of the population live in the Swiss Plateau region while it is considerably less so in the Alps region. In both the UK and Switzerland though the railways are more extensive where there are more people which is why the two networks are comparable and why SBB is one of the networks the UK can model.

Only around 37% of the Swiss population (~3.3m out of 8.9m) live in the six cantons with a population density higher than that of England though.

England is one of the most densely populated areas of its extent in Europe.

 

[lachlan]

I don't know if you spotted it but for the 2nd class economy airline seating the view out of the window for half the seats is poor. All the seats need moving back a foot or so relative to the windows.

Good point and that's something the current stock gets right IIRC. Meanwhile I've often ended up on a Class 800 beside a pillar

 

[RT4038]

In both the UK and Switzerland though the railways are more extensive where there are more people which is why the two networks are comparable and why SBB is one of the networks the UK can model.

The UK cannot afford to do this until the other economic and cultural conditions within the country are aligned, which seems unlikely to happen.