Why can’t we have trains like this in the UK?

[Ken H]

We need to be careful with population density. The north of England has vast areas of land unsuitable for development because its so high above sea level. Its boggy because it has a wet climate. It is dissected by deep curving valleys which makes road and railway building difficult, and its full of factories and housing because there is nowhere else to put them.
So while the ECML and the south end of the WCML are fairly straight and level, the WCML north of Carnforth and the trans-pennine routes are more like Switzerland and Austria with bendy heavily graded railways.
But if you look at a map of England and see the undeveloped areas in the Pennines, you have to remember those areas are 'socking great hills'. So bendy railways in the valleys or expensive base tunnels.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'd hate the UK to get Germany's current railways

For all DB’s issues at present, they’re still better than anything you get in the UK.

 

[Energy]

We could create restaurant cars by swapping the half carriage into a more basic table and side bar arrangement like on the railjet, but why would we? Catering has moved on and we dont have sit down meals on trains on the types of journey that are commonly made in the UK. As has already been mentioned, some operators do provide closer to a restaurant car on some longer distance services. When the same stock is used on a shorter journey (like London to Manchester vice London to Glasgow, or Paddington to Oxford vice Paddington to Penzance) the accommodation used as the "restaurant" is easily saleable as a normal seat. IF the Austrians want to have that service for journeys of 2 hours or less then that is their choice, but I think most routes in the UK do not really suit restaurants.

Are sit-down meals a priority? Most willing to pay for it will likely be in first class, so an at-seat service (like LNER) makes more sense than taking up space with specific restaurant seating. Standard-class catering seems to have gone the way of meal deals and food heated in a Merrychef. LNER appears to have got this about right.

 

[HSTEd]

How many passengers actually make journeys long enough to make sit down meals practical?

Although Austria has a relatively small area it's length gets you from London most of the way to Edinburgh.

 

[A0wen]

The one thing in the article nobody has mentioned is

The new train will initially operate on the Wien - Feldkirch route.

According to Google Maps, that's a distance of over 600km / over 370 miles and with a journey time of over 6 hours by train.

That's a pretty marginal scenario in the UK - most journeys and even services are much, much shorter.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I find it a shame the local trains here aren’t like the Cityjets in Austria. They are light years ahead of 150s, 158s, 170s, 195s etc

 

[Energy]

I find it a shame the local trains here aren’t like the Cityjets in Austria. They are light years ahead of 150s, 158s, 170s, 195s etc

Tbh, they don't seem that dissimilar to the 195s or any other modern commuter stock. The 150s are much worse but are much older (and should be replaced soon).

 

[HSTEd]

I find it a shame the local trains here aren’t like the Cityjets in Austria. They are light years ahead of 150s, 158s, 170s, 195s etc

There are few problems that cannot be solved with a larger loading gauge!
We could have trains like that, or better, but we'd have to rebuild most of the infrastructure.

 

[Falcon1200]

cannot see what real benefit compartments bring unless your group actually fills a compartment. In cases where you are sharing a compartment I would see the closed space could only bring disadvantage.

Indeed, and moreover, in Standard Class open coaches have 2+2 seating either side of the aisle, whereas a compartment with 4 on each seat would be rather cosy! Compartments are great if you are the only person in one......

 

[Mogz]

Indeed, and moreover, in Standard Class open coaches have 2+2 seating either side of the aisle, whereas a compartment with 4 on each seat would be rather cosy! Compartments are great if you are the only person in one......

“Depending on their preference, passengers have a choice of seating: in compartments, in open-plan cars, or in raised seating areas with slightly higher seat heights. Passengers preferring a quieter ride can sit in designated quiet zones, while families can use the family zones with game board tables.”

I think the point is that these trains give a choice. UK trains do not.

 

[Ken H]

“Depending on their preference, passengers have a choice of seating: in compartments, in open-plan cars, or in raised seating areas with slightly higher seat heights. Passengers preferring a quieter ride can sit in designated quiet zones, while families can use the family zones with game board tables.”

I think the point is that these trains give a choice. UK trains do not.

on most UK trains there is no choice. you sit on any free seat. Or the floor

 

[HSTEd]

“Depending on their preference, passengers have a choice of seating: in compartments, in open-plan cars, or in raised seating areas with slightly higher seat heights. Passengers preferring a quieter ride can sit in designated quiet zones, while families can use the family zones with game board tables.”

I think the point is that these trains give a choice. UK trains do not.

But this choice is then imposed on other passengers.
Trains in the UK are too heavily loaded for us to sacrifice eight seats for the preferences of a small group of passengers which won't fill every seat.

 

[yorkie]

Tbh, they don't seem that dissimilar to the 195s or any other modern commuter stock. The 150s are much worse but are much older (and should be replaced soon).

195s are very poor compared to CityJet trains.

But this choice is then imposed on other passengers.
Trains in the UK are too heavily loaded for us to sacrifice eight seats for the preferences of a small group of passengers which won't fill every seat.

People can sit in any part of the train they wish. Based on my experience of continental Europe, compartments are very popular but no-one is forced into them!

I checked the link expecting something that was completely different from the UK. However, the normal carriages just look normal. The compartments do not look like anything special and the restaurant car is basic.

Having actually travelled on RailJets, I know they are absolutely better than what we have in the UK.x

Issues with compartments have been raised. I cannot see what real benefit compartments bring unless your group actually fills a compartment. In cases where you are sharing a compartment I would see the closed space could only bring disadvantage.

In that case, don't sit there. But the reality is that many people do!

 

[RailWonderer]

European train press releases often refer to passenger comfort, a term anathema to the DfT.

"a truly first-class travel experience and raises rail comfort to a new level.”

A very Continental way of seeing things. This would never happen over here sadly.

Only around 37% of the Swiss population (~3.3m out of 8.9m) live in the six cantons with a population density higher than that of England though.

England is one of the most densely populated areas of its extent in Europe.

Yes and the Swiss population is more decentralised. Zurich is the closest there is to a metropolis but otherwise nothing beats London and the home counties alone in population density apart from Belgium and the Netherlands.

 

[yorkie]

European train press releases often refer to passenger comfort, a term anathema to the DfT.

A very Continental way of seeing things. This would never happen over here sadly.

Very true; in the UK the push is very much to dissuade too many people using trains, because it would require too much investment in rolling stock, track upgrades etc.

I doubt many of the people who support the DfT's approach have much experience of travelling in countries like Austria.

How many passengers actually make journeys long enough to make sit down meals practical?

Travel on LNER, Avanti etc and you will see plenty of such journeys being made.

I'd hate the UK to get Germany's current railways

They are far from perfect, but my experience of travelling in Germany is, for the most part:

For all DB’s issues at present, they’re still better than anything you get in the UK.

This.

There are exceptions, but for the most part Germany does a better job than the UK in this area.

 

[RailWonderer]

195s are very poor compared to CityJet trains.

A lot of Stadler FLIRT trains have thinish seating like the 195s do but if the poor comment refers to ride quality then most Western European trains seem to ride better than UK trains. If you ran a 195 on European track it would glide I'm sure.

 

[swt_passenger]

I recollect there was such a murder on Southern Region SE Division. However, this was non-corridor compartment stock which was a bit dodgy, one of the reasons there were Ladies Only compartments.

That’s right, if the train was moving you were completely stuck in whichever compartment you chose. I don't think normal long distance corridor stock should really be seen in the same way.

 

[Mogz]

So the UK government’s Transport policy seems to be to try and deter travel altogether?

Don’t drive because cars are bad for the environment, petrol is expensive and more city centres have congestion charges.

Don’t get the train because they are expensive and overcrowded and we can’t afford better.

 

[RT4038]

So the UK government’s Transport policy seems to be to try and deter travel altogether?

Don’t drive because cars are bad for the environment, petrol is expensive and more city centres have congestion charges.

Don’t get the train because they are expensive and overcrowded and we can’t afford better.

Perhaps the policy is to reflect the costs of travel on society and the environment? Is your journey really necessary? Needed next is to extend this principle to air travel....

 

[yorksrob]

So the UK government’s Transport policy seems to be to try and deter travel altogether?

Don’t drive because cars are bad for the environment, petrol is expensive and more city centres have congestion charges.

Don’t get the train because they are expensive and overcrowded and we can’t afford better.

A policy that would be popular with the Duke of Wellington (the famous one).

Perhaps the policy is to reflect the costs of travel on society and the environment? Is your journey really necessary? Needed next is to extend this principle to air travel....

If you're expecting people to fly less, you need to facilitate more domestic travel in order to promote economic activity.

 

[mangyiscute]

There are exceptions, but for the most part Germany does a better job than the UK in this area.

Perhaps I've just got unlucky, but having taken about 5 train trips within Germany, there was only 1 occasion where I wasn't delayed by 1 hour+ due to either cancellations or the train getting massively delayed (and in this case the train was very busy due to the one before having been cancelled).
Meanwhile in the UK, I very very rarely get delayed by over an hour - it's happened once or twice in about 60000 miles of travel since covid. The UK also has far nicer delay repay options too.
While there are other issues beyond delays (I know Germany wins in terms of cost, for example) for me that's the most important thing that makes UK railways better.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think the point is that these trains give a choice.

Is that level of accommodation commonplace throughout Europe?

Don’t get the train because they are expensive and overcrowded and we can’t afford better.

An oft-repeated complaint about our trains; 'They are too expensive and they are are always overcrowded'. Both things cannot be true, surely!

 

[Bletchleyite]

An oft-repeated complaint about our trains; 'They are too expensive and they are are always overcrowded'. Both things cannot be true, surely!

They can if they're way too short/infrequent and the parallel roads are full of cars, which most of them are.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

An oft-repeated complaint about our trains; 'They are too expensive and they are are always overcrowded'. Both things cannot be true, surely!

You've obviously never travelled on certain parts of the Cross Country network.

 

[Mogz]

Is that level of accommodation commonplace throughout Europe?

In my experience, yes.

Even the latest high speed stock usually has a restaurant (or “Bistro”) and a few token compartments in both classes eg the DB ICE3.

 

[HSTEd]

An oft-repeated complaint about our trains; 'They are too expensive and they are are always overcrowded'. Both things cannot be true, surely!

Why can't it be?

People use the train because they don't have many other options, not because they actually want to.

And given that rail represents a small percentage of total travel, both can be true at once.

 

[JonathanH]

If you're expecting people to fly less, you need to facilitate more domestic travel in order to promote economic activity.

That isn't true at all. It is quite possible for people to spend money in the local economy without travelling particularly long distances. Travelling further afield sometimes is good, but so can be staying local.

 

[yorksrob]

That isn't true at all. It is quite possible for people to spend money in the local economy without travelling particularly long distances. Travelling further afield sometimes is good, but so can be staying local.

People already stay local most of the time. Expecting them to do so more would stifle economic activity.

 

[30907]

In my experience, yes.

Even the latest high speed stock usually has a restaurant (or “Bistro”) and a few token compartments in both classes eg the DB ICE3.

One family compartment in 2nd is now DB's standard for ICEs - but at least the catering is open (or closed!) to all, not just 1st.

 

[Mogz]

One family compartment in 2nd is now DB's standard for ICEs - but at least the catering is open (or closed!) to all, not just 1st.

When I was last in Germany (couple
of years ago) the DB service seemed second to none. Has something gone catastrophically wrong in the meantime?