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Why doesn't NR just cut the trees down?

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CosherB

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Many of our railways have become tunnels between greenery. No views for the passenger (and the views from a train are among the best to had - if the trees allow you to see them), and of course there's a 'leaf fall' problem in autumn.

Look at pictures from the '50s. A clean, open railway with few significant lineside trees. I guess they didn't want fires caused by steam locos, or leaf fall problems either, so the cut 'em down. Back then there was cheap labour to keep things trimmed manually, but today we have power tools and machines to do the job.

Anyone with a garden knows that if you keep on top of tree and bush trimming, it's manageable. Let it get away from you for a few years and it's a major job to clear it. Why don't NR bite the bullet and cull the trees, then ensure they don't grow back?
 
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DavidBrown

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Many areas are a lot better than they were even a year or two back, so you can't generalise it as an issue across the entire network.

The other problem nowadays is that they can only cut vegitation outside of nesting season, which doesn't leave a huge amount of time left in the year for cutting back vegetation.
 

LE Greys

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Tree Preservation Orders might apply as well, and they also act as a sound-suppressor.
 
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In some places they have. There was an article on the internal website that the Kyle? Line in Scotland has had significant amount of trees cut back to improve the views. However, with that notable exception, the only places it's been generally done are at problem leaf fall sites where a number of stations close together are causing performace issues.

I suggest it's generally on the basis of cost - whilst a nice view is appriciated by passengers, there are far more pressing problems that they would rather be takled.

Also, whilst I'm no expert in the matter, it seems logical that trees help secure embankments from landslides. However, some better qualified people might be able to comment on this.
 

CosherB

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Quite a lot of the trees aren't on Nitwit Rail land, so they can only cut them back where they overhang the boundary.

O L Leigh

Did BR own 'wider borders' than NR to account for that 1950s tree-free track environment? My late father in law was a civil engineer with BR and one of his responsibilities was ensuring no trees were likely to fall onto the track during high winds etc. If there was a risk, the tree got trimmed or felled (I presume he could only do this back to the BR boundary).

I remember that whenever a fallen tree was reported on TV news as having blocked a road, he'd say "that wouldn't happen on the railway. At least not on my patch".
 

asylumxl

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I would say it is because the trees roots help to hold together the embankments.

I can't see trees creating such major problems that it would be justifiable, both economically and practically, to remove them. The cost of installing retaining structures and erosion control systems just can't be justified in most places.
 

Old Timer

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I would say it is because the trees roots help to hold together the embankments.

I can't see trees creating such major problems that it would be justifiable, both economically and practically, to remove them. The cost of installing retaining structures and erosion control systems just can't be justified in most places.
The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?
 

Aictos

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The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?

In 2009-2010, part of the Hertford Loop in the Palmers Green area had it's trees felled and the land turfed instead as a result it's much nicer and no doubt as you have said above led to the banks being strengthen.
 

asylumxl

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The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?

So you're telling me if you remove the trees it won't weaken the embankment structure?
 

John Webb

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In recent years NR has cut down trees along stretches of the St Pancras-Bedford through St Albans. There were howls of complaint in the local press about the adverse effect this would have on local wild life, the loss of CO2 absorbtion and not least that some people could now see the railway from their houses.....

I wonder how many of the complainants were commuters who'd suffered delayed trains due to leaves on the line.......
 

Class172

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Last year they cut down about 500 trees on an embankment between Rainbow Hill Jct and Worcester Foregate St. Although it does offer better views of the city from the railway, many residents complained that they had no prior warning and it ruined their views.
 

DarloRich

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In recent years NR has cut down trees along stretches of the St Pancras-Bedford through St Albans. There were howls of complaint in the local press about the adverse effect this would have on local wild life, the loss of CO2 absorbtion and not least that some people could now see the railway from their houses.....

I wonder how many of the complainants were commuters who'd suffered delayed trains due to leaves on the line.......

and there you have one of the real reasons the trees arent cut down.
 

pendolino

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Tree Preservation Orders might apply as well, and they also act as a sound-suppressor.

The railway comes under the 'statutory undertaker' exemption in the TPO legislation, such that work to TPO'd trees on 'operational land' doesn't need permission from the LPA if required to comply with a statutory obligation (in this case, to run trains safely and on time). Although as a matter of good practice, I would hope NR (or their contractors) would consult with the LPA prior to any works. The same exemption applies to utility companies.

The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?

I'd like to see evidence of that from a credible source, as that is entirely contrary to the accepted wisdom that deforestation leads to soil erosion. World wide, tree planting is used as a way to stabilise landscapes, as long as the species selection is suitable.

More generally, (from reading this and this) NR recognise the wildlife value of railway embankments as green corridors and don't carry out work unless absolutely necessary for safety/operational reasons. This reflects the development of arboricultural good practice; until 30-40 years ago, a lot of tree work was 'sanitary' (removal of dead trees where the hazard was minimal, attempts to 'tidy up' and constrain the landscape), often using techniques that were harmful to trees (e.g., flush cutting, unnecessary pollarding). Whereas today there is a far greater emphasis on biodiversity (retention of dead wood etc.) and sustainability (in both an environmental and financial sense), and a far greater knowledge of tree hazards and how to manage them.

NR do have a massive problem with Japanese Knotweed, which I would like to see them address. But they're not alone in that, most Local Authorities have similar problems, and it is a very difficult problem to deal with so it would be unfair to be too critical of them in this respect.
 

TDK

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Exactly that.

Not to mention birds and bats and tree huggers!

So no trees to be cut down for HS2? Scrap HS2 and put the money into where it is needed for the current infrastructue and that includes moderated tree felling.
 

lev441

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In recent years NR has cut down trees along stretches of the St Pancras-Bedford through St Albans. There were howls of complaint in the local press about the adverse effect this would have on local wild life, the loss of CO2 absorbtion and not least that some people could now see the railway from their houses.....

I wonder how many of the complainants were commuters who'd suffered delayed trains due to leaves on the line.......

I live alongside the line and they have been cutting back the trees for a few years now.. more and more kept disappearing and now they've all gone!

It has made trains slightly nosier and that now people can see into the house.. I guess complaints may have been justified somewhat..
 

The Snap

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The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

The same can be said for drainage; tree and shrub roots can damage pipes and channels in the cess, as well as flumes on embankments. In the most severe cases, roots can crack and deform the drains to the extent that they don't work, very often resulting in wet beds for example.

On the flip side, from a safety point of view, the actual felling of trees would have to be carried out in a controlled manor which prevented any branches falling on the track - this would either require a possession or other safe system of work. On top of that, you can't go cutting trees down that are next to live OHLE...

So you're telling me if you remove the trees it won't weaken the embankment structure?

Tree roots can be very destructive. Although not a 'tree', things like Japanese Knotweed do nothing but damage to wherever they grow; their roots grow through reinforced concrete, so just imagine the damage done to an earth embankment...

pendolino said:
NR do have a massive problem with Japanese Knotweed, which I would like to see them address. But they're not alone in that, most Local Authorities have similar problems, and it is a very difficult problem to deal with so it would be unfair to be too critical of them in this respect.

The problem is, the only way to really remove it is to spray it (which can sometimes be ineffective) or to inject it. As you can image, to inject all the Knotweed on the 20,000 mile network would be astronomically costly! (Bearing in mind that the chemical used is strong enough to burn your skin, so doesn't come cheap!)
 
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pendolino

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The same can be said for drainage; tree and shrub roots can damage pipes and channels in the cess, as well as flumes on embankments. In the most severe cases, roots can crack and deform the drains to the extent that they don't work, very often resulting in wet beds for example.

In your experience, how many of those drains damaged via direct penetration of roots were in a poor condition to start with? I know there is contradicting research, but a lot of what I have read suggests that roots will only directly penetrate a drain where there is a leaking/failed joint; in this case the roots, being hydrotropic, grow along the moisture gradient and enter the drain run via the leaking joint to proliferate once inside, subject to oxygen levels being sufficient. An answer that has been suggested is to line trenches with non-woven geotextiles (Terram) which acts as a root barrier, although this is only any good on new installations obviously.

But yes you're quite right, tree root damage to drains can be as a result of lateral forces from the wind acting on the crown being translated via the roots onto the pipe. Claus Mattheck has researched this extensively, many of the findings can be found in 'Tree Roots in the Built Environment', which I recommend as a very good read on this subject. And there is indirect damage in shrinkable clays as a result of tree-related soil drying leading to soil movement.

Tree roots can be very destructive. Although not a 'tree', things like Japanese Knotweed do nothing but damage to wherever they grow; their roots grow through reinforced concrete, so just imagine the damage done to an earth embankment...

Some trees (e.g., poplar, willow, cherry) but not all species by any means. And while I agree that Knotweed can cause extensive damage to structures/hard surfaces, surely in the case of an earth embankment the (extensive) root system will help to bind the soil horizons together, preventing shear/slump? (Not that I'm advocating retaining Japanese Knotweed on embankments, because of its hugely detrimental effect on biodiversity).

The problem is, the only way to really remove it is to spray it (which can sometimes be ineffective) or to inject it. As you can image, to inject all the Knotweed on the 20,000 mile network would be astronomically costly! (Bearing in mind that the chemical used is strong enough to burn your skin, so doesn't come cheap!)

The chemical mostly used is glyphosate (which you can buy in the garden centre as Round Up), which doesn't burn the skin. If a contractor is using something else that burns the skin, then they really need to revisit their COSHH assessment! You're right though, stem injection is hugely time consuming and not always effective at 'first strike' (speaking from experience here).
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On the flip side, from a safety point of view, the actual felling of trees would have to be carried out in a controlled manor which prevented any branches falling on the track - this would either require a possession or other safe system of work. On top of that, you can't go cutting trees down that are next to live OHLE...

Do NR not allow any live line cutting? In theory it's perfectly possible, as all the electricity companies allow it (with the exception of National Grid - 400 and 275kV is too high a voltage) using insulated rods and/or cutting from a cherry picker using insulated tools and suitable PPE, depending on the voltage. (I suppose though that if treework on the railway requires a possession, you may as well have a current isolation too, much less hassle than that associated with a DNO taking 100s of customers off supply for a power outage)
 

OxtedL

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In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?
Most recently:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38451

Note the use of the word "umbrella", all you nay-sayers... :D
As discussed in a previous thread, that is not really so.

A proper geotechnical survey should always be done before doing any significant felling of trees and certainly taking no mitigating measures such as improving drainage and checking slope stability may lead to a slope failure. But to say that removing all the trees WILL eventually lead to a landslip is not entirely true. A trees rootball only makes up the top 1m or so... think of it as a patio umbrella. Slope instability will often arise from the top layer losing its "friction" with the underlying subsoils... it can happen anywhere given the right conditions; trees or no trees.

Unfortunately I do not have any faith in NR to manage their earthworks properly, due to their prolific use of consultants to do this work rather than in-house area staff, and it does concern me to see such wholesale felling without any apparent mitigation, particularly on older slopes.

I broadly agree with the removal of trees and vegetation from slops and the vicinity at the top and toe of any slope, but only if it is done correctly.
 

Spagnoletti

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Don't worry folks, under Cameron's big society teams of volunteers will soon be seen the length and breadth of the land sorting this out!
 

CosherB

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So no trees to be cut down for HS2? Scrap HS2 and put the money into where it is needed for the current infrastructue and that includes moderated tree felling.

If a major infrastructure addition like HS2 is dropped, the money would not 'be available' to spend on other stuff on the existing infrastucture. That's not how it works.

Each project has to be justified in it own right; if HS2 fails that justification (perhaps for political as much as economic reasons) then that's the end of the story. Any other project would have to fight its own corner for its own funding, and the cancellation or not of HS2 would not be relevant in that fight.
 
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Old Timer

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Originally Posted by Old Timer
The last thing needed is trees on embankments. Contrary to common myth, they actually lead to the destabilisation of the structure rather than improving it.

In any case this subject was debated at length a short time ago. Maybe someone can post the link, so we can avoid the same debate again ?
I'd like to see evidence of that from a credible source, as that is entirely contrary to the accepted wisdom that deforestation leads to soil erosion. World wide, tree planting is used as a way to stabilise landscapes, as long as the species selection is suitable. .
If you dont believe me thewn take the words of my colleague. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=365536&postcount=10

They also have those great big branches up in the sky catching the wind acting like sails, so that those roots you think so highly of start pulling on the ground. Just think how much drag there is on a large oak tree in a gale.

They suck a huge amount of water out of the ground in the summer, so the embankments shrink and crack. (I take it you have noticed how the track rises over the underbridges in ash embankments in the summer, and often dips as it goes past clumps of trees in the cess) Come the autumn it rains, and the rain runs down into the cracks lubricating them, so the now wet and heavy surface layers can slide off the still dry and crumbly lower ones.

The leaf cover also kills the grass on the surface of the bank, and without this binding layer. The surface drys out and any disturbance sends it rolling down the bank eroding the surface. Trees and bushes also provide cover for burrowing animals, who again weaken the banks.

So cut all the trees down, and leave the banks to the grass, as that binds the surface, which then holds the core in place. Without the disadvantages listed above.



So you're telling me if you remove the trees it won't weaken the embankment structure?
See above
 
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LE Greys

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If you dont believe me thewn take the words of my colleague. http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=365536&postcount=10

See above

My former tutor, Dr Payton, would undoubtedly go on at great length about soil structure and how woodlands have a much softer, spongier, looser soil (partly because of shelter, partly because of leaf-litter) that can withstand tree movements, but is very susceptible to wind erosion. Made ground such as railway embankments have a completely different soil structure, which cracks easily when penetrated by tree roots. This again causes the wind erosion problem and allows water to penetrate. Water freezes, expands, and makes the crack bigger.
 

TDK

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If a major infrastructure addition like HS2 is dropped, the money would not 'be available' to spend on other stuff on the existing infrastucture. That's not how it works.

Each project has to be justified in it own right; if HS2 fails that justification (perhaps for political as much as economic reasons) then that's the end of the story. Any other project would have to fight its own corner for its own funding, and the cancellation or not of HS2 would not be relevant in that fight.

I know this is off topic to a certain degeree but HS2 is a waste of money, if the money remains in the treasury it will eventually be used on something else and anything is more useful than HS2
 

CosherB

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I know this is off topic to a certain degeree but HS2 is a waste of money, if the money remains in the treasury it will eventually be used on something else and anything is more useful than HS2

Don't quite know where to start with this. Do you think there's free money sloshing around in the Treasury waiting a 'home'?

The UK has a MASSIVE debt, and a MASSIVE deficit (so the MASSIVE debt is by the minute getting more MASSIVE). If a miracle happens and the deficit can be eliminated, the debt will stabilise and we can start to address that. You can thank G Brown for this (the Bankers were naughty, but thier contribution is coming good and it looks like we'll get our money back there. G Brown's financial mismanagement has far deeper implications).

To attract investment (money!) a project has to promise a payback. HS2 will pay back many fold, but not immediately though the fare box. It's called 'vision', and traditionally the UK isn't good at that.

We have a major travel problem here - roads jammed, rail approaching full capacity with no spare for expansion of passenger or freight. We need HS2 for capacity alone; the high speed will be a bonus. The debacle of WCML upgrading showed that we spent billions and got not a lot on an existing infrastructure. Spend billions on a NEW infrstructure instead and it's all win.

As for 'anything is more useful than HS2'... maybe we should just let that amazing statement attract ideas as daft as the statement. How about 'free yo yos for all school leavers'? That would certainly be cheaper than HS2!
 
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