Why I believe Penalty Fares can be unfair

[Llanigraham]

Demonstrating the advantage of buying a ticket at a booking office. No railcard, no discounted ticket.

Which would be slightly difficult at my local station!
(and for that matter, a lot of others as well!!)

 

[Merseysider]

Or perhaps for 'missing railcard' situations only, charge £30 (the cost of a new one; and perhaps issue a voucher that can be exchanged for a new one at a station) if the Penalty Fare would exceed this. Yes, there are pros and cons to this, but at least the cost of the Penalty Fare would be a bit more proportional to the fare. I personally agree with the OP that £70 (ching!) is a tad excessive for a £2.50 discrepancy.

 

[Agent_c]

There is no offence of driving without being in actual possession of a licence. In practice you are unlikely to be asked to produce it unless involved in an accident or stopped for some unrelated reason, but if you are, it is sufficient to present it at a Police Station.

The more user friendly way of approaching those who travel without the relevant discount card would be to charge the missing third and refund it, perhaps subject to an administrative charge on production of an "in date" card. Yes, you would need to change the terms and conditions, and yes, you would have to put a start date on the discount card.

What is the Missing third though? The Third of the advance fare, the third of the fare that could have been purchased in the ticket office, or the third of the anytime ticket the guard is going to sell you?

 

[Spamcan81]

Which would be slightly difficult at my local station!
(and for that matter, a lot of others as well!!)

And mine most of the time. I have once forgotten my railcard when travelling but fortunately I realised my mistake before I used the TVM and was able to purchase the correct ticket.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

What is the Missing third though?

You charge an excess equal to 50% of the fare shown on the ticket. If you wanted a deterrent, charge that plus an excess refundable or partly refundable on production of the discount card. That assumes the advance is otherwise valid for the service.

It's a change of mindset. You have to accept that provided a valid card was held at the time the journey commenced, the discounted ticket counts as partly valid, so you are in the realm of Excess Fares rather than travel without a ticket.

 

[najaB]

You charge an excess equal to 50% of the fare shown on the ticket. If you wanted a deterrent, charge that plus an excess refundable or partly refundable on production of the discount card. That assumes the advance is otherwise valid for the service.

Given that many railcard discounted tickets are Advances as well that isn't going to be much of a deterrent. There was a recent case in the Disputes and Prosecutions section where the poster had paid £12.50 for their ticket and were complaining that they got 'fined' £150.50. Turned out that was the price of a walk-up ticket that was valid for the train they were on.

So, using your suggestion they would pay £12.50 + £6.25 = £18.75 without showing a valid railcard, and me sitting next to them would pay £150.50.

Can't say that is fair.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Can't say that is fair.

The differentials between Anytime and Advance are far too wide. It's great for those who learn how to play the system, but hopeless as making a case for a more widespread use of rail travel.

You should probably treat "Off Peak" as the base cost. Then add some percentage for use of peak trains and subtract some percentage for being expected to use a pre-nominated train. Generally speaking a Return should be twice a single, although you would probably keep the traditional discount for day returns.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The more user friendly way of approaching those who travel without the relevant discount card would be to charge the missing third and refund it, perhaps subject to an administrative charge on production of an "in date" card. Yes, you would need to change the terms and conditions, and yes, you would have to put a start date on the discount card.

And then it comes back to that age old problem of "How do you prove that the card being presented was issued to the person that was stopped on the train?" given that the person dealing with the case won't have the RPI with them, and won't have a photo of the passenger to verify same (and, except for the Y-P and Two Together Railcards, won't have a photo of the Railcard holder)...

 

[najaB]

You should probably treat "Off Peak" as the base cost.

£150.50 was the Off-Peak price!

 

[Merseysider]

£150.50 was the Off-Peak price!

I believe that was, in fact, the price for an Anytime single for LIV<>EUS, before it increased in winter.

 

[najaB]

I believe that was, in fact, the price for an Anytime single for LIV<>EUS, before it increased in winter.

You're right, of course, I was misremembering the details of the thread.

 

[Clip]

Completely agree with Neil Williams, and can't believe some of the sanctimonious attitudes on this board. We are not all perfect. We all make mistakes at some stage in our lives. Sometimes a little forgiveness and a small penalty is a much better way forward than the disproportionate penalties sometimes sought.

Forget your railcard? Show it at the station within x days, pay an admin fee to cover the the time and trouble, don't do it again otherwise there will be a bigger fee to pay.

It's time for some proportionality.

its not being sanctimonious its being realistic. We have been round the houses with the 'ideas' and such like for what should happen for a forgotten railcard many many times so many that it is indeed getting tedious because any sort of scheme would cost to set up and no one has ever said that they would be prepared to pay for it.

And as someone said above - with the idea of returning to the station in x amount of days - just how would the station know it was the right person with the right card? They wouldn't so it does away with it.

Lets be brutally honest here - yes we all forget things - BUT why is it so difficult for people to not check that they have everything before they set off to travel? I check check and triple check I have my stuff - is that because I know what will happen and if using staff travel facilities I may lose them? I don't know but I make sure that I have them so that doesn't happen.

 

[Llanigraham]

Or perhaps for 'missing railcard' situations only, charge £30 (the cost of a new one;

Disabled Adult Card is less than £30!!

 

[Merseysider]

Disabled Adult Card is less than £30!!

Yes, it's £20.
And staff are instructed to 'show discretion' to the disabled.

Indeed, a FOI request to East Coast showed they had a policy of giving disabled passengers discounted fares (33% - 50%) without the need to produce a railcard. But this is quite off-topic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And then it comes back to that age old problem of "How do you prove that the card being presented was issued to the person that was stopped on the train?" given that the person dealing with the case won't have the RPI with them, and won't have a photo of the passenger to verify same (and, except for the Y-P and Two Together Railcards, won't have a photo of the Railcard holder)...

You have to give your name when getting a PF, don't you? How many people are going to have the presence of mind to give the *specific* false name of a friend who has a Railcard and isn't going to be cross at them being implicated for fare dodging just in case a prosecution results?

You'll note I did say "Railcards with a photocard". For the others, I would suggest they start issuing photocards, as otherwise they are de-facto transferrable which is surely not what the railway wants. (I know there is plenty of passing around of Network Railcards). Other than the cost of a bit of card, most of the cost of doing that falls on the passenger anyway so the railway needn't worry.

Neil
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its not being sanctimonious its being realistic. We have been round the houses with the 'ideas' and such like for what should happen for a forgotten railcard many many times so many that it is indeed getting tedious because any sort of scheme would cost to set up and no one has ever said that they would be prepared to pay for it.

Erm, the passenger would, by paying the £10 admin fee when performing the transaction. No different to the same thing with a season ticket, really. And some TOCs *do* do that.

And if it's found that the £10 admin fee is no longer covering the cost of the kind of admin to which it applies, perhaps it needs increasing like it did from £5 to £10 a while ago - but that's a separate question.

And as someone said above - with the idea of returning to the station in x amount of days - just how would the station know it was the right person with the right card? They wouldn't so it does away with it.

I refer you to the above about season tickets - the same applies. You have to give your name when you get a PF (if I recall rightly). Who's going to have the presence of mind to give the name of a person they know who has a valid Railcard and will present it as requested, knowing that if there is an inconsistency the railway would have a concrete set of evidence for a prosecution for deliberate fraud?

Lets be brutally honest here - yes we all forget things - BUT why is it so difficult for people to not check that they have everything before they set off to travel? I check check and triple check I have my stuff - is that because I know what will happen and if using staff travel facilities I may lose them? I don't know but I make sure that I have them so that doesn't happen.

It must be great to be perfect. You're never running for the train and forget to check? You're never convinced you checked earlier? Nothing ever drops out of your pocket?

Neil

 

[DaleCooper]

You have to give your name when getting a PF, don't you? How many people are going to have the presence of mind to give the *specific* false name of a friend who has a Railcard and isn't going to be cross at them being implicated for fare dodging just in case a prosecution results?

A dishonest person or persons might do just that in collaboration with a railcard holder. Just imagine how many people could share a railcard. It's often surprising the lengths criminals will go to, remember the ticket forger from a few threads back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A dishonest person or persons might do just that in collaboration with a railcard holder. Just imagine how many people could share a railcard. It's often surprising the lengths criminals will go to, remember the ticket forger from a few threads back.

But you could equally write:

A dishonest person or persons might do just that in collaboration with a season ticket holder. Just imagine how many people could share a season ticket. It's often surprising the lengths criminals will go to, remember the ticket forger from a few threads back.

And some TOCs do offer that for season tickets.

In reality, if only one claim per Railcard per year was allowed, it's likely to be minimal. People are unlikely to willingly give up "their" claim to a friend, as they may want it themselves. And for any journey costing less than thirty quid, there would be no benefit to doing it at all, as the £10 admin fee is more than the additional cost of a non-Railcard ticket.

Neil

 

[island]

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect passengers to comply with the conditions of the Railcard that they chose to sign to agree to on purchase and/or before use of the Railcard. Tens of thousands if not more passengers manage perfectly well to do so every day.

 

[DaleCooper]

I doubt that one claim per year would improve things as we would then get people whining at the penalty when they forget their railcard for the second time in a year.

 

[Clip]

Yet again the usual people are not advocating any personal responsibility for making sure they have their correct documents for when they travel only that the railway must bend over backwards yet again in cases where they dont have them.

 

[Agent_c]

I doubt that one claim per year would improve things as we would then get people whining at the penalty when they forget their railcard for the second time in a year.

The important difference being that at least then multiple railway personnel would have stated clearly "do it again and you pay full fare".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yet again the usual people are not advocating any personal responsibility for making sure they have their correct documents for when they travel only that the railway must bend over backwards yet again in cases where they dont have them.

There's personal responsibility, then there's profiteering over minor good faith errors. Surely there must be a middle way?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yet again the usual people are not advocating any personal responsibility for making sure they have their correct documents for when they travel only that the railway must bend over backwards yet again in cases where they dont have them.

Or we're just asking for a bit of human discretion, because we're all human and we all make mistakes?

Well done to you if you never do. You must be very unusual.

Neil

 

[scott118]

There's personal responsibility, then there's profiteering over minor good faith errors. Surely there must be a middle way?

why? as already pointed out above, lots of others manage to do it daily or however often it is, that they travel. It's in the T&C's as stated. No card, no discounted travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

why? as already pointed out above, lots of others manage to do it daily or however often it is, that they travel. It's in the T&C's as stated. No card, no discounted travel.

And people forget stuff, and because barriers don't check railcards end up on trains without them by mistake.

2xAnytime is one hell of a penalty for such a minor error. (Though as I've stated before I don't believe this should be the basis for the PF - the Penalty component should in my view be a fixed amount, with the appropriate walk-up fare for the train used on top).

Neil

 

[DaleCooper]

The important difference being that at least then multiple railway personnel would have stated clearly "do it again and you pay full fare".

Would that stop them complaining?

 

[scott118]

where is the difficulty in putting your railcard behind your bank card? I'm only thinking that most people will carry with them, either a wallet or a purse of some description? I'm aware that some will match their bags to their outfits, mainly the ladies, however would you do the same with a wallet or purse? It's not compulsory to carry your driving license, should you have one, however an awful lot of people do so..

 

[Bletchleyite]

where is the difficulty in putting your railcard behind your bank card? I'm only thinking that most people will carry with them, either a wallet or a purse of some description? I'm aware that some will match their bags to their outfits, mainly the ladies, however would you do the same with a wallet or purse? It's not compulsory to carry your driving license, should you have one, however an awful lot of people do so..

I'm guessing you have the online ordered type of Railcard where that is convenient as it's a single plastic card, rather than the paper station-issued type which tends to come in a separate wallet and is more conventionally carried separately like a season ticket?

I do always carry my Network Railcard, however as it's on APTIS type stock it does often get pulled out attached to another card, which is a right nuisance, and does risk losing it.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would that stop them complaining?

It'd give them less grounds to complain.

Neil

 

[scott118]

I'm guessing you have the online ordered type of Railcard where that is convenient as it's a single plastic card, rather than the paper station-issued type which tends to come in a separate wallet and is more conventionally carried separately like a season ticket?

I do always carry my Network Railcard, however as it's on APTIS type stock it does often get pulled out attached to another card, which is a right nuisance, and does risk losing it.
Neil

and the difficulty of carrying this in your wallet is? A risk of losing it? surely you are at a stand, when you are making payments, therefore, should anything fall, it will land at your feet or indeed the counter that you are leaning against, perhaps?

I carry staff railcards, all tucked into my wallet along with my cash and debit/credit cards. If i should ever forget my wallet, i then have no means to make any payment of any sorts. In my specific case, no card, no travel, no nothing. Am i alone in this practise? I doubt it...

 

[Bletchleyite]

and the difficulty of carrying this in your wallet is?

If in the supplied folder it won't fit.

Perhaps the railway should stop supplying them in said folders, then such carrying is not encouraged.

Indeed, more sensibly, perhaps all Railcards should be issued on the plastic card format - like SBB and DB do you could buy one at the station for postal delivery and be issued a temporary card for the interim with a couple of weeks' validity.

Neil

 

[scott118]

If in the supplied folder it won't fit.

Perhaps the railway should stop supplying them in said folders, then such carrying is not encouraged.

Indeed, more sensibly, perhaps all Railcards should be issued on the plastic card format - like SBB and DB do you could buy one at the station for postal delivery and be issued a temporary card for the interim with a couple of weeks' validity.

Neil

aahh, so now it's the TOC's fault for the issue of the non standard, supplied folder, and not the responsibility of the card holder to ensure it is carried at all times, whilst travelling..Perhaps railcards shouldn't be issued, at the local booking office, to alleviate your particular problem of how to carry it responsibly...