Why I believe Penalty Fares can be unfair

[DaleCooper]

aahh, so now it's the TOC's fault for the issue of the non standard, supplied folder, and not the responsibility of the card holder to ensure it is carried at all times, whilst travelling..Perhaps railcards shouldn't be issued, at the local booking office, to alleviate your particular problem of how to carry it responsibly...

Those pesky TOCs, I bet they do it on purpose!

 

[Bletchleyite]

aahh, so now it's the TOC's fault for the issue of the non standard, supplied folder, and not the responsibility of the card holder to ensure it is carried at all times, whilst travelling..Perhaps railcards shouldn't be issued, at the local booking office, to alleviate your particular problem of how to carry it responsibly...

I despair as to how little human understanding people on here have at times, and how perfect some people are - they must never forget anything important. Good for them in their land of absolute perfection.

If you were issued a Railcard in a folder, why would you not carry it in that folder? You might even think it was mandatory to do so.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sarcasm aside, though - the answer to this is likely to be that Railcards will become smartcards, and discounted tickets will *only* be available on those cards, bound to the card. Thus, as increasing numbers of stations get barriered, one will be physically prevented from travelling in the event of having forgotten.

Neil

 

[najaB]

why? as already pointed out above, lots of others manage to do it daily or however often it is, that they travel. It's in the T&C's as stated. No card, no discounted travel.

I agree that it's the card-holder's responsibility to carry their railcard, but I think that the suggestion that the PF be refunded if they can produce the card within (for example 10 days) is a reasonable middle ground.

 

[scott118]

I despair as to how little human understanding people on here have at times, and how perfect some people are - they must never forget anything important. Good for them in their land of absolute perfection.

If you were issued a Railcard in a folder, why would you not carry it in that folder? You might even think it was mandatory to do so.

Neil

Lol, you despair? You should try working with them and listening to their invalid excuses, whilst they try to avoid a UFN! Irrespective, of how things are run within the Swiss and German railways, if that is indeed, what you are stating with SBB/DB, things in the UK are somewhat different as i'm sure you have experienced.

It is the cardholders responsibility to carry their card for the discounted ticket, to be valid. It matters not if that initial free folder is suitable or not, to fit your/their current wallet. Some may take it upon them, that the said 'unsuitable' folder is somewhere to keep it safe, at home, as it is impractical to use in conjunction with a wallet/purse.

No railcard, no discount, Expect to be fined, if caught. There's no excuse. Only your own stupidity, makes you forgetful of this fact.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I despair as to how little human understanding people on here have at times, and how perfect some people are - they must never forget anything important. Good for them in their land of absolute perfection.

Amen!

We all understand the strict technical requirement to carry your railcard with your ticket.


My question to all these people:

Have you never gone out and realised that you've left your wallet/phone/keys/tickets/work pass/whatever on the coffee table/in your desk drawer/in your other pair of trousers/in the car etc. etc.?

Have you never ever dropped or lost anything whilst out and about?

If you say that none of this has ever happened to you, you're either lucky, or lying.

 

[DaleCooper]

Would this work? (No, that's not me.)

 

[EM2]

Amen!

We all understand the strict technical requirement to carry your railcard with your ticket.


My question to all these people:

Have you never gone out and realised that you've left your wallet/phone/keys/tickets/work pass/whatever on the coffee table/in your desk drawer/in your other pair of trousers/in the car etc. etc.?

Have you never ever dropped or lost anything whilst out and about?

If you say that none of this has ever happened to you, you're either lucky, or lying.

Yes, some of these things have happened to me. And when they have, I have accepted the consequences, and more importantly, learned from the experience. That's how life works.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, some of these things have happened to me. And when they have, I have accepted the consequences, and more importantly, learned from the experience. That's how life works.

And you think a Penalty Fare of maybe over a hundred quid in some situations is a fair consequence? I don't. I think so far as possible "penalties" for unintentional error should be at the level of "memory jogging" - the standard admin fee of £10 sounds a fair sum to me provided the Railcard is later produced.

It's notable that some railways worldwide have two levels of penalty - one for no ticket, one for a partially valid ticket at a lower level.

Neil

 

[Clip]

Same old same old yet again from the usual suspects.

Would you turn up at an airport without important travel documents - one being your passport,say, and still expect to fly? Or would you be expected to go home and get it? And how much would that cost.

None of this is relevant but lets face it,once again(and ill probably be accused of being anti passenger again) the onus is on the PASSENGER to ensure they have their railcard with them or they are NOT entitled to a discounted ticket and if you decide to travel on one without your railcard then you should face the penalty. And lots of people do try it on as many other staff on here will tell you.

Its not a hard concept to understand is it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lol, you despair? You should try working with them and listening to their invalid excuses, whilst they try to avoid a UFN! Irrespective, of how things are run within the Swiss and German railways, if that is indeed, what you are stating with SBB/DB, things in the UK are somewhat different as i'm sure you have experienced.

There's a phrase for that - "not invented here syndrome". We should always compare our practices in the UK with those of other countries, both positively and negatively, in a quest to improve.

Neil

 

[CharlieSpotted]

And lots of people do try it on as many other staff on here will tell you.

This seems to be a common theme here... just because lots of people do try it on (I don't doubt that) doesn't mean that everyone who finds themselves in that situation is trying it on.

 

[EM2]

And you think a Penalty Fare of maybe over a hundred quid in some situations is a fair consequence? I don't. I think so far as possible "penalties" for unintentional error should be at the level of "memory jogging" - the standard admin fee of £10 sounds a fair sum to me provided the Railcard is later produced.

Neil

Yes, I do. It's a deterrent. I bet once you've had your memory jogged like that, you won't get caught out again.
How do we know it's an unintentional error? How do we know that the passenger doesn't always 'forget' his railcard? A tenner is no deterrent at all, if you get away with it a number of times before you get caught.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same old same old yet again from the usual suspects.

Would you turn up at an airport without important travel documents - one being your passport,say, and still expect to fly? Or would you be expected to go home and get it? And how much would that cost.

You would be prevented from boarding. You wouldn't, if you were so prevented, be fined a substantial sum having already boarded. So not at all the same situation - the option not to travel is there. Only if you decided to travel would a high cost be incurred (e.g. for a new ticket if you'd missed the flight).

Its not a hard concept to understand is it?

I fully understand it, I just, as a human being with foibles, do not accept the "strict" view and feel there should be a small manner of leeway, such as that provided by a number of TOCs to their season ticket holders in the event of forgetting it, travelling in error, getting a PF and presenting the ticket at the ticket office later.

Neil

 

[Clip]

Amen!

We all understand the strict technical requirement to carry your railcard with your ticket.


My question to all these people:

Have you never gone out and realised that you've left your wallet/phone/keys/tickets/work pass/whatever on the coffee table/in your desk drawer/in your other pair of trousers/in the car etc. etc.?

Have you never ever dropped or lost anything whilst out and about?

If you say that none of this has ever happened to you, you're either lucky, or lying.

Yes to all of them and do you know what I have had to do? Go back and get them or get the missus to pay for me to go back and get them. And guess what - that costs me money so that is a penalty for my foolishness

For things that are lost especially when I lost me house keys once when I was drunk and me lass was abroad guess what I had to do?? Fork out £300+ for a locksmith to come out and redo me front door. I couldve kicked it in but then that would cost even more.

do you see the correlation here? My mistakes have cost me money. Thats a financial penalty for not taking care and getting drunk.

See, its the same as not having your railcard. Or do you think I shouldve got a freeride home or even a new lock for free?

Silly comparisons yet again

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I do. It's a deterrent. I bet once you've had your memory jogged like that, you won't get caught out again.
How do we know it's an unintentional error? How do we know that the passenger doesn't always 'forget' his railcard? A tenner is no deterrent at all, if you get away with it a number of times before you get caught.

Did you read the bit where I suggested it should be a "once a year" offer, like it is for season tickets on some TOCs?

Neil

 

[Clip]

You would be prevented from boarding. You wouldn't, if you were so prevented, be fined a substantial sum having already boarded. So not at all the same situation - the option not to travel is there. Only if you decided to travel would a high cost be incurred (e.g. for a new ticket if you'd missed the flight).



I fully understand it, I just, as a human being with foibles, do not accept the "strict" view and feel there should be a small manner of leeway, such as that provided by a number of TOCs to their season ticket holders in the event of forgetting it, travelling in error, getting a PF and presenting the ticket at the ticket office later.

Neil

We dont have the luxury of preventing people from boarding though at all statioons do we - Id love it but then you the passenger would face the cost of barriers and staffing at each station - we have been here before.

It is a strict view. You dont have it you either dont travel or pay.

Stop making excuses and stop trying out 'ideas' ones that you have put out there before - we keep hearing the same things time and again from you. There is no reason to keep doing this over and over again yet you feel the need to.

The passenger was in the wrong - FACT.

They had to pay a penalty Fare - FACT.

thats it. End of.

Why do these threads get allowed to happen for so long and often?

 

[Flamingo]

A rant.

I slept it out because my alarm clock did'nt go off - not my fault. Driving to the railway station I thought it was a fifty zone, but the speed limit was thirty and I got stopped. The mean, rude, jobsworth policeman would'nt accept it was an honest mistake and gave me a speeding ticket. When I got to the train station I bought a parking ticket but when I threw it at the dashboard it fell off and the jobsworth parking attendent gave me a ticket when it was not my fault. I had run out the doir forgetting my briefcase, which contained my ticket, railcard and other documents. The totally rude train guard was totally unreasonable even though I showed him the e-mail about the ticket, and charged me another full-price ticket at over £100 rather than the £12 advance ticket I had bought. He said that even if I had the ticket, it was for an earlier train - what a total jobsworth! I then got to the airport and the total b*tch on the check-in desk would not let me board as she said the flight had closed! She then had the cheek to charge me over £500 for the next flight. And to cap it all,when I got to the gate, they wouldn't let me board as I'd made an honest mistake and forgotten my passport!

NONE OF IT WAS MY FAULT, WHY DO I MEET SUCH HORRIBLE PEOPLEWHO HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE! DON'T THEY KNOW I PAY THEIR WAGES!!!

/Rant over

 

[EM2]

Did you read the bit where I suggested it should be a "once a year" offer, like it is for season tickets on some TOCs?

Neil

Yep. Still doesn't change my mind. Hit them in the pocket hard the first time, and they'll soon think twice about doing it again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stop making excuses and stop trying out 'ideas' ones that you have put out there before - we keep hearing the same things time and again from you. There is no reason to keep doing this over and over again yet you feel the need to.

When you are a moderator, you have the right to tell me what I may or may not post.

Until then, either discuss or ignore when I post in relevant threads. If I were OT you would have a valid point. I am not.

That I disagree with you does not give either of us the right to tell the other not to post.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yep. Still doesn't change my mind. Hit them in the pocket hard the first time, and they'll soon think twice about doing it again.

On that we will, I'm afraid, have to agree to disagree.

Neil

 

[scott118]

A rant.

I slept it out because my alarm clock did'nt go off - not my fault. Driving to the railway station I thought it was a fifty zone, but the speed limit was thirty and I got stopped. The mean, rude, jobsworth policeman would'nt accept it was an honest mistake and gave me a speeding ticket. When I got to the train station I bought a parking ticket but when I threw it at the dashboard it fell off and the jobsworth parking attendent gave me a ticket when it was not my fault. I had run out the doir forgetting my briefcase, which contained my ticket, railcard and other documents. The totally rude train guard was totally unreasonable even though I showed him the e-mail about the ticket, and charged me another full-price ticket at over £100 rather than the £12 advance ticket I had bought. He said that even if I had the ticket, it was for an earlier train - what a total jobsworth! I then got to the airport and the total b*tch on the check-in desk would not let me board as she said the flight had closed! She then had the cheek to charge me over £500 for the next flight. And to cap it all,when I got to the gate, they wouldn't let me board as I'd made an honest mistake and forgotten my passport!

NONE OF IT WAS MY FAULT, WHY DO I MEET SUCH HORRIBLE PEOPLEWHO HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE! DON'T THEY KNOW I PAY THEIR WAGES!!!

/Rant over

.

hahaha, that's not a rant, that's some peoples reality. I know, i've heard it all before - here's your UFN sir/madam. Again, T&C's apply, they are written on the back for you. Please read them. Have a good day, and thank you for travelling with us today...

 

[najaB]

Yep. Still doesn't change my mind. Hit them in the pocket hard the first time, and they'll soon think twice about doing it again.

That's why I like the idea of allowing a refund of one (and one only) PF if they can produce an in-date railcard within 10 days. Being deprived of £100+ for a few days will definitely stick in the mind.

 

[DaleCooper]

That's why I like the idea of allowing a refund of one (and one only) PF if they can produce an in-date railcard within 10 days. Being deprived of £100+ for a few days will definitely stick in the mind.

Maybe I've got too much money but that wouldn't deter me at all as long as I got it back after a few days.

 

[EM2]

That's why I like the idea of allowing a refund of one (and one only) PF if they can produce an in-date railcard within 10 days. Being deprived of £100+ for a few days will definitely stick in the mind.

Not as much as being deprived of it permanently

 

[Clip]

When you are a moderator, you have the right to tell me what I may or may not post.

That was aimed at the mods who seem to let these threads go round and round when nothing changes and until it does then these pointless posts are just that.


Let me ask you a simple question before we finish:

What are the conditions of holding a railcard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What are the conditions of holding a railcard?

I know full well what they are. My point (and I was not the only one taking this view) surrounded what they *should be*.

This would be a very tedious forum if one was only allowed to engage in discussion based on how the railway works never being permitted to change.

Edit: If you dislike my posts so much, as it seems you do, why not simply add me to your ignore list?

Neil

 

[najaB]

Not as much as being deprived of it permanently

I guess I'm not as cold and heartless as you are.

 

[Clip]

Well that answered my simple question didnt it and kind of proved a point. You dont deal in hard facts you deal in 'what ifs and maybes'. Nothing personal as some of your posts elsewhere are quite good but here we are dealing with certainties and no amount of ideas or what ifs is going to change that.

 

[Flamingo]

I know full well what they are. My point (and I was not the only one taking this view) surrounded what they *should be*.

This would be a very tedious forum if one was only allowed to engage in discussion based on how the railway works never being permitted to change.

Neil

Why should they change? As it stands they are simple, easy to understand and from the operators point of view, with a minimum of administration after issue.

Any changes will only complicate a simple system, and I thought you were in favour of simplification?

 

[EM2]

I guess I'm not as cold and heartless as you are.

It's not that, but having had a similar experience to Clip, it's certainly made me check everything multiple times.
Added to which, the earbashing I got from the missus the other night, when she had to get out of bed at gone 11pm because I left my keys at home before I'd headed to work, concentrates the mind wonderfully

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any changes will only complicate a simple system, and I thought you were in favour of simplification?

I do like simplification, but I also dislike heavy penalties being imposed for genuine mistakes. A difficult balance, of course.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

here we are dealing with certainties

Usually in this part of the forum we are, but this one has turned into a rather abstract discussion started from a rant rather than from a request for assistance.

Neil