Why is a Borismaster bus in Southampton?

[IanXC]

To counter that I would point out that many towns and.cities in the UK don't have artics and few operatos seem interested in buying the ex London ones even at a knockdown price.

They are slow lumbering things and caused far too much congestion at busy Central London stops.

Slow and lumbering? Maybe they're an exception, but the Mercedes bendies First have for Park and Ride in York have exceptional performance. The drivers describe a full and standing bendy out accelerating anything ekse their depot has, even completely unlaiden!

 

[jon0844]

I still don't understand what's so different about central london.

All the cities I mentioned have bendies going right through the middle of them with no apparent problems.

I can't speak for all of London, but the 73 that I used a fair bit had a lot of problem areas, with some bits of the road having been redesigned to give the buses a 'secure' area to turn, without clipping other vehicles.

I have been on them when they've clipped the kerb, which has to be a big no no for pedestrians that could be struck (so not just a risk to cyclists).

A lot of the problems with the 73 were down to other motorists and traffic, and obviously the bigger issue of when there's a few buses at one stop - so the bus you might want is miles back. It was also hard at times for them to get close up and straight with the kerb - presumably making wheelchair access rather difficult.

All in all, they didn't suit parts of London and I am sure there are similar problems in other locations too - but perhaps the traffic is less or there was more room to adjust junctions/pavements, or even the lower frequency of buses at stops?

I have no doubt bendy buses are fine for many places and I've travelled Europe and seen them looking like they're just fine. I am certainly NOT anti-bendy bus, but in London, yes I was against them. Not least the ease at which you could travel without paying.

I don't have an opinion on the Borismaster as I've never been on one despite seeing loads. They actually look quite nice in the flesh though, but I never thought we had to replace a bendy bus with one of those! And so far we haven't done that, with plenty of perfectly ordinary double decker buses (including hybrid buses) that have come on as well.

 

[Antman]

Slow and lumbering? Maybe they're an exception, but the Mercedes bendies First have for Park and Ride in York have exceptional performance. The drivers describe a full and standing bendy out accelerating anything ekse their depot has, even completely unlaiden!

The Citaro is a nice enough bus, my slow and lumbering comment was about the size of the artics and the problems they have getting round certain corners or through gaps that other buses could with no problem.

 

[Deerfold]

One of the biggest issues that the bus (i.e. local stage carriage services) industry faces is its image. Buses are seen as unattractive and dated.

And yet bus use in London has soared in recent years without a Borisbus. It'll be interesting to see if it increases still further with them.
Of course the other major issues faced by bus operators is costs - and with the Borisbus being heavier than any other generally available double decker service bus and needing two staff to allow its full use.

As a passenger, the Borismaster is the best vehicle for urban transport which I have ever used; it has decent climate control with cool air conditioning in summer and functioning heating during winter, the seats are comfortable and the ride is smooth and it doesn't start shaking you to death when the bus is stationary.

It's true that there's a wide variety in quality between buses, even in London.

It'll be interesting to see how the Borisbus ages.
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I can't speak for all of London, but the 73 that I used a fair bit had a lot of problem areas, with some bits of the road having been redesigned to give the buses a 'secure' area to turn, without clipping other vehicles.

I have been on them when they've clipped the kerb, which has to be a big no no for pedestrians that could be struck (so not just a risk to cyclists).

A lot of the problems with the 73 were down to other motorists and traffic, and obviously the bigger issue of when there's a few buses at one stop - so the bus you might want is miles back. It was also hard at times for them to get close up and straight with the kerb - presumably making wheelchair access rather difficult.

All in all, they didn't suit parts of London and I am sure there are similar problems in other locations too - but perhaps the traffic is less or there was more room to adjust junctions/pavements, or even the lower frequency of buses at stops?

I have no doubt bendy buses are fine for many places and I've travelled Europe and seen them looking like they're just fine. I am certainly NOT anti-bendy bus, but in London, yes I was against them. Not least the ease at which you could travel without paying.

I'd agree you have to make sure they're on suitable routes and that may not have included all the routes they were on, but surely there must be some routes which are suitable for them in London? Or does something strange happen within the M25 making all roads unsuitable for buses which manage just fine outside?

If you didn't like artics because of the levels of fare evasion the Borisbus won't help as neither the driver nor the "conductor" will be checking fares.

 

[Antman]

And yet bus use in London has soared in recent years without a Borisbus. It'll be interesting to see if it increases still further with them.
Of course the other major issues faced by bus operators is costs - and with the Borisbus being heavier than any other generally available double decker service bus and needing two staff to allow its full use.



It's true that there's a wide variety in quality between buses, even in London.

It'll be interesting to see how the Borisbus ages.
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I'd agree you have to make sure they're on suitable routes and that may not have included all the routes they were on, but surely there must be some routes which are suitable for them in London? Or does something strange happen within the M25 making all roads unsuitable for buses which manage just fine outside?

If you didn't like artics because of the levels of fare evasion the Borisbus won't help as neither the driver nor the "conductor" will be checking fares.

There are several London routes that would be suited to artic operation outside of the central area, as for fare evasion everybody should board by the front door as happens on artics elsewhere in the UK and the conductor on the NB4L should go round the bus collecting fares and scanning oysters etc.

The whole concept of the bendy bus in Central London was about cramming more passengers into fewer buses with fewer seats, hardly any wonder it didn't go down very well:cry:

 

[Deerfold]

There are several London routes that would be suited to artic operation outside of the central area, as for fare evasion everybody should board by the front door as happens on artics elsewhere in the UK

and the conductor on the NB4L should go round the bus collecting fares and scanning oysters etc.

Like the "host" on these artics? http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/leeds/journey_planning/hyperlink/

The whole concept of the bendy bus in Central London was about cramming more passengers into fewer buses with fewer seats, hardly any wonder it didn't go down very well:cry:

Most complaints about the bendy buses tended to be from people who weren't using them.

 

[jon0844]

Most complaints about the bendy buses tended to be from people who weren't using them.

Perhaps, but I was someone that did use them and didn't think they worked, even though I've had no issues with bendy buses elsewhere in the world (and indeed, the UK).

Nothing wrong with the buses themselves, besides catching fire from time to time, and maybe they could have been used in other parts of London - but not the central sections.

 

[Deerfold]

Nothing wrong with the buses themselves, besides catching fire from time to time, and maybe they could have been used in other parts of London - but not the central sections.

There was a design fault with the Citaro bendies which did see a few catch fire before they managed to fix the fault (I seem to recall it being a badly placed coolant line).

Unfortunately the need to carry lots of people tends to be highest in the centre.

I can't think of any routes which are busy enough to warrant bendies without entering the centre apart from the W7.

 

[jon0844]

Uno has now a couple of bendy buses running shuttles from the University to the campus and possibly the park and ride car park, and some other routes around the business park and to Hatfield train station (so not fixed for any specific route). I actually don't think they're from London/Arriva though, but rather 'old' First buses (I think maybe once used at Luton Airport).

So, we now have some bendy buses in Hertfordshire and they seem to cope with our roads.

Perhaps being a bus company owned by the university, it will actually try and get a Borismaster in the years to come simply for the novelty value!

 

[bb21]

The rushed introduction of artics on certain routes in replacement of Routemasters was a mistake, as was the rushed and poorly-considered withdrawal of all of them.

There are many central London routes perfectly suited to artics operation - 507, 521, 29, 436, 453 ...

The critics appear to be using the unsuitability of the vehicles on certain routes as a basis for attack on central London operations as a whole rather than looking at each case in isolation on its own merit. Nothing new here I guess as that is exactly what posh boy did in order to push through his vanity project.

Heard it all before and cannot be bothered to get into that argument again.

 

[Antman]

There was a design fault with the Citaro bendies which did see a few catch fire before they managed to fix the fault (I seem to recall it being a badly placed coolant line).

Unfortunately the need to carry lots of people tends to be highest in the centre.

I can't think of any routes which are busy enough to warrant bendies without entering the centre apart from the W7.

Well how busy do they have to be?

Off the top of my head I can think of the 86,108,109,155,207 (which did have artics), 227,253,254,329,472 as possible candidates for artic operation subject clearance tests.
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The rushed introduction of artics on certain routes in replacement of Routemasters was a mistake, as was the rushed and poorly-considered withdrawal of all of them.

There are many central London routes perfectly suited to artics operation - 507, 521, 29, 436, 453 ...

The critics appear to be using the unsuitability of the vehicles on certain routes as a basis for attack on central London operations as a whole rather than looking at each case in isolation on its own merit. Nothing new here I guess as that is exactly what posh boy did in order to push through his vanity project.

Heard it all before and cannot be bothered to get into that argument again.

I'd have to disagree about those routes being perfectly suited because of the bus stop blocking issues, for instance the reliability of the 24 (which shares much of the 29 route) went downhill fast when artics took over the 29.

Posh boy, how dare he introduce the sort of bus that Londoners have been asking for?

 

[jon0844]

A lot of the problems for the bendy buses were indeed down to other road users, but unless you can get everyone else to do everything properly - you'll have to simply accept it and factor that in.

Hence the bendy buses not being great in central London. And there was also the issue of how they coped at bus stops when there was another bendy in front or behind, and other normal buses all at the same stop at the same time.

In other parts of London and outside of London, I bet there aren't stops serving that many buses at once.

 

[Deerfold]

Well how busy do they have to be?

Off the top of my head I can think of the 86,108,109,155,207 (which did have artics), 227,253,254,329,472 as possible candidates for artic operation subject clearance tests.

I'd say the 207, 253 and 254 sound good out of those - otherwise if you maintain the same capacity the other routes drop in frequency to not really be turn up and go frequencies. But then I'd say the 253 and 254 come into central London anyway (Euston and Aldgate respectively).

I'd have to disagree about those routes being perfectly suited because of the bus stop blocking issues, for instance the reliability of the 24 (which shares much of the 29 route) went downhill fast when artics took over the 29.

Posh boy, how dare he introduce the sort of bus that Londoners have been asking for?

Have they really? I know there were those who wanted the Routemaster back, but I doubt many wanted this. It's certainly not what *any* of the operators wanted or they'd be willing to buy some.

 

[90019]

it has decent climate control with cool air conditioning in summer and functioning heating during winter, the seats are comfortable and the ride is smooth and it doesn't start shaking you to death when the bus is stationary.

That'll be because they're new.

Give it time and see if they're still like that a few years down the line.

 

[Antman]

I'd say the 207, 253 and 254 sound good out of those - otherwise if you maintain the same capacity the other routes drop in frequency to not really be turn up and go frequencies. But then I'd say the 253 and 254 come into central London anyway (Euston and Aldgate respectively).



Have they really? I know there were those who wanted the Routemaster back, but I doubt many wanted this. It's certainly not what *any* of the operators wanted or they'd be willing to buy some.

Operators cannot buy them at the moment, they are specifically designed for London so it seem logical for TfL to own them

 

[jon0844]

Many other new buses don't have air conditioning though. It's probably another reason that some people would rather stick to their own car (certainly outside of London anyway) than use a bus when it's really hot, or even when it's cold and the inside is all damp and the windows are all misted up.

 

[Deerfold]

Operators cannot buy them at the moment, they are specifically designed for London so it seem logical for TfL to own them

I'm sure if they'd wanted to it'd have been quite easy to sell them directly to operators.
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Many other new buses don't have air conditioning though. It's probably another reason that some people would rather stick to their own car (certainly outside of London anyway) than use a bus when it's really hot, or even when it's cold and the inside is all damp and the windows are all misted up.

So all TfL need do is specify buses with air conditioning as a condition of operating new routes.

 

[bb21]

Posh boy, how dare he introduce the sort of bus that Londoners have been asking for?

I don't have any words to say to you if you think that way apart from a smilie.

I'd have to disagree about those routes being perfectly suited because of the bus stop blocking issues, for instance the reliability of the 24 (which shares much of the 29 route) went downhill fast when artics took over the 29.

There are plenty of inexpensive solutions if there is an issue caused by sharing the same bus stops. Removing perfectly suitable vehicles from a route simply because of that is expensive and short-sighted. The 29 is a very busy artery route, with high frequencies even at night.

I wonder how stop dwell times are doing on the 29.

 

[Antman]

I don't have any words to say to you if you think that way apart from a smilie.




There are plenty of inexpensive solutions if there is an issue caused by sharing the same bus stops. Removing perfectly suitable vehicles from a route simply because of that is expensive and short-sighted. The 29 is a very busy artery route, with high frequencies even at night.

I wonder how stop dwell times are doing on the 29.

But isn't that it? Its an anti Boris 'posh boy' Johnson thing? When Ken livingstone was refurbishing routemasters nobody was complaing, Boris has just come up with a more up to date version.

Yes the N29 is very busy at night, I think the expensive and short sighted thing was getting hundreds of artics in the first place and its significant that few other operators want to buy them even at a knockdown price.

 

[Deerfold]

But isn't that it? Its an anti Boris 'posh boy' Johnson thing? When Ken livingstone was refurbishing routemasters nobody was complaing, Boris has just come up with a more up to date version.

Yes the N29 is very busy at night, I think the expensive and short sighted thing was getting hundreds of artics in the first place and its significant that few other operators want to buy them even at a knockdown price.

I'm not aware of any ex-London artics having a problem finding alternative work. It may have taken a while as a large number came available at once.

 

[Antman]

Hence the bendy buses not being great in central London. And there was also the issue of how they coped at bus stops when there was another bendy in front or behind, and other normal buses all at the same stop at the same time.

Thats it exactly, the chaos two or even three artics arriving together at a busy Central London stop caused was something else, on a suburban route it wasn't such a problem.
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I'm not aware of any ex-London artics having a problem finding alternative work. It may have taken a while as a large number came available at once.

There's loads of them rusting away in fields, nobody wants them.

 

[jon0844]

So all TfL need do is specify buses with air conditioning as a condition of operating new routes.

Indeed. But why didn't that happen with all the new buses that have been introduced during or after the announcement of the Borismaster?

I assume that given the huge cost of these buses, air conditioning was not an item worth arguing about or was even considered essential to justify their cost - so in effect, the other buses didn't get aircon simply to make these look better.

I can't believe how a car dealer was looking at me as being some sort of loon for wanting to buy a car with air conditioning back in the mid 1990s. I was told that it was a pointless option for only a few hot days a year. Now every car has aircon, pretty much.

 

[bb21]

Yes the N29 is very busy at night, I think the expensive and short sighted thing was getting hundreds of artics in the first place and its significant that few other operators want to buy them even at a knockdown price.

Why do you think that there were hundreds of them? They were very successful in trials on the Red Arrow routes. It was not a short-sighted thing to introduce more of them. The mistake was that they were not really suitable for running on some of the routes such as the 73. Boris just grabbed that opportunity with problems on some routes to wage a war that he wanted as all politicians do.

Such is the nature of politics. It wouldn't surprise me if the next Mayor decides that he will have his own plaything and consign the Borismasters to the bin after the first round of contracts.

Thats it exactly, the chaos two or even three artics arriving together at a busy Central London stop caused was something else, on a suburban route it wasn't such a problem.

What about the chaos when five or six normal double-deckers arrive at bus stops at the same time, which isn't a rare sight in central London?

It is all about how these things are handled. If done correctly, three artics arriving at the same time shouldn't be any more problem than 5/6 normal double-deckers arriving at the same time. This is not one of the artics' main weaknesses.

There's loads of them rusting away in fields, nobody wants them.

Why wouldn't they be? How many other cities have routes that have the profiles of central London routes? Amongst them how many are already equipped with suitable vehicles before the London ones became available? How many do you think suddenly became available when the withdrawal programme was pushed forward?

Plenty of towns and cities in this country have artics: Glasgow, Leicester, Nottingham, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Bournemouth, Brighton, Birmingham, Coventry, Aberdeen, Cardiff are some that are rolling off the top of my head.

Ken made some mistakes with their introduction on some routes, without a shadow of doubt, however Boris equally held the general public in contempt when he decided unilaterally that he would rather waste unnecessary money to force their withdrawl before the Olympics with no good reason for it.

We have our differences regarding suitability of these vehicles on certain routes. I am happy that I have my information from good and reliable sources. You are free to believe what you want to believe. You don't have to agree with me.

Now who is going to answer me the question regarding dwell times on the 29? I know Boris won't.

 

[Deerfold]

There's loads of them rusting away in fields, nobody wants them.

Do you have any links to that (seriously - I've not seen anything about that - I thought they'd all been cascaded or sold on).

 

[Antman]

Do you have any links to that (seriously - I've not seen anything about that - I thought they'd all been cascaded or sold on).

I don't have any links off hand but there are loads of them sitting around in various locations, about 15-20 of the Go Ahead ones went to Brighton & Hove for Uni route 25 and some of the Arriva ones were shipped out to Malta, there might be a few others here and there but generally speaking few other operators want them.
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Why do you think that there were hundreds of them? They were very successful in trials on the Red Arrow routes. It was not a short-sighted thing to introduce more of them. The mistake was that they were not really suitable for running on some of the routes such as the 73. Boris just grabbed that opportunity with problems on some routes to wage a war that he wanted as all politicians do.

Such is the nature of politics. It wouldn't surprise me if the next Mayor decides that he will have his own plaything and consign the Borismasters to the bin after the first round of contracts.



What about the chaos when five or six normal double-deckers arrive at bus stops at the same time, which isn't a rare sight in central London?

It is all about how these things are handled. If done correctly, three artics arriving at the same time shouldn't be any more problem than 5/6 normal double-deckers arriving at the same time. This is not one of the artics' main weaknesses.



Why wouldn't they be? How many other cities have routes that have the profiles of central London routes? Amongst them how many are already equipped with suitable vehicles before the London ones became available? How many do you think suddenly became available when the withdrawal programme was pushed forward?

Plenty of towns and cities in this country have artics: Glasgow, Leicester, Nottingham, Liverpool, Leeds, York, Bournemouth, Brighton, Birmingham, Coventry, Aberdeen, Cardiff are some that are rolling off the top of my head.

Ken made some mistakes with their introduction on some routes, without a shadow of doubt, however Boris equally held the general public in contempt when he decided unilaterally that he would rather waste unnecessary money to force their withdrawl before the Olympics with no good reason for it.

We have our differences regarding suitability of these vehicles on certain routes. I am happy that I have my information from good and reliable sources. You are free to believe what you want to believe. You don't have to agree with me.

Now who is going to answer me the question regarding dwell times on the 29? I know Boris won't.

I've no idea about dwell times on the 29 I'm afraid

I'm not sure artics were a success on the red arrow routes, off peak the rigid Citaro's are more than adequate for loadings and the chaos around Victoria Station at times, which had four artic routes at one time, was something else.

There's often congestion at many Central London stops with too many buses trying to serve it at one time but obviously 18m artics are going to make the problem a lot worse.

 

[mbonwick]

As far as I know, none of the 50+ Citaro artics East London Bus Group operated have yet found new homes either.

 

[fgwrich]

Going way back to the original question which im not sure if it's been covered. The Borismaster (two of them) have actually escaped to New York on the 'Call Me Dave' and Prince Harry Tour of the USA.

http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=2356

Wonder what the US make of the 'emo' design?

 

[jon0844]

Didn't we also try and export black cabs to NYC?

Having been in a yellow cab, I think our taxis are a lot nicer and more practical, but surely the local manufacturers are not going to let us take away their business?

 

[starrymarkb]

Didn't we also try and export black cabs to NYC?

Having been in a yellow cab, I think our taxis are a lot nicer and more practical, but surely the local manufacturers are not going to let us take away their business?

I believe all new Yellow cabs from later this year are Nissan NV200 minivans!

 

[jon0844]

I believe all new Yellow cabs from later this year are Nissan NV200 minivans!

Wow. They look really big, but can only take three in the back and one in front? That's quite amazing(ly poor). Seems like they're not very wheelchair friendly either.