Why no foreign locos ?

[cls]

Is there a reason why foreign locos dont work through the tunnel and onwards , currently in France and have seen 66062 and another 66 working over here ?

 

[TheGrew]

Is there a reason why foreign locos dont work through the tunnel and onwards , currently in France and have seen 66062 and another 66 working over here ?

Surely this is simply gauging issues prohibiting foreign locos from leaving HS1.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Aren't 66s an internation train design used across Europe?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Aren't 66s an internation train design used across Europe?

I think originally designed for UK (59s/66s) and eventually spread across to other parts of Europe (and beyond)

 

[DarloRich]

Is there a reason why foreign locos dont work through the tunnel and onwards , currently in France and have seen 66062 and another 66 working over here ?

they have a nasty habit of crashing into the infrastructure being of a larger gauge

 

[cls]

Copied from Wiki

The Class 66 design has also been introduced to Continental Europe where it is currently certified for operations in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, and Poland, with certification pending in the Czech Republic and Italy. They currently operate on routes between Sweden and Denmark and between Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and Poland. As a result of its well-known British identity, EMD Europe markets the locomotive as "Series 66".

Seems strange they dont work through the UK

 

[Murph]

Copied from Wiki

The Class 66 design has also been introduced to Continental Europe where it is currently certified for operations in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, France, and Poland, with certification pending in the Czech Republic and Italy. They currently operate on routes between Sweden and Denmark and between Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands and Poland. As a result of its well-known British identity, EMD Europe markets the locomotive as "Series 66".

Seems strange they dont work through the UK

Just being basically a UK design isn't sufficient, so nothing strange about it. They can only operate in the UK if they have UK signalling and safety equipment. (e.g. AWS, etc) Equally, a UK-spec 66 most likely would not be allowed to run in another territory that already uses 66s without conversion to local standards. Also, I believe that some of the foreign 66s have a US-style "control stand", rather than the UK-style driver's desk, so the drivers wouldn't be allowed to drive the opposite style to the one they are trained for.

They are all 66s as far as basic structure, prime mover, alternator, power bogies, etc, but it's the little details that make a big difference.

Edit: Also, there's not much need for foreign 66s here, we've already got plenty of them yinging their way around the UK network.

 

[Bodiddly]

Egyptian state railways use them also.

 

[theboywho]

There is also a similarly-designed Class 67 in operation in Spain.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Just being basically a UK design isn't sufficient, so nothing strange about it. They can only operate in the UK if they have UK signalling and safety equipment. (e.g. AWS, etc) Equally, a UK-spec 66 most likely would not be allowed to run in another territory that already uses 66s without conversion to local standards. Also, I believe that some of the foreign 66s have a US-style "control stand", rather than the UK-style driver's desk, so the drivers wouldn't be allowed to drive the opposite style to the one they are trained for.

They are all 66s as far as basic structure, prime mover, alternator, power bogies, etc, but it's the little details that make a big difference.

Edit: Also, there's not much need for foreign 66s here, we've already got plenty of them yinging their way around the UK network.

Yes, regarding the drivers desk, I was led to beleive it is the class 58 desk as used firstly in the 59s, and later also in the 66s although the controller and other equipment is pure EMD, if any driver on here could confirm?

 

[Bald Rick]

Errrrm, tunnel is electric traction only.

 

[jopsuk]

Class 92s go through to France, and some have been used domestically in France, whilst SNCF BB22000s were used (as far as Dollands Moor only!) before the 92s were in service.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Is there a reason why foreign locos dont work through the tunnel and onwards , currently in France and have seen 66062 and another 66 working over here ?

The ex-EWS/DBS 66's on the European mainland with ECR don't "work through the tunnel".
They were sent over from the UK for work in France and other neighbouring countries, not to "work through the tunnel", which they can't anyway as that requires specially certified electric traction.
They have all been converted for operation in their new sphere of operation and when passing through the tunnel, are hauled by electric locos.

 

[gage75]

Egyptian state railways use them also.

Looks more like a 59 going by light cluster

 

[DownSouth]

There is also a similarly-designed Class 67 in operation in Spain.

The development path leading to the Class 67 went the other way to the Series 66, though.

The Class 67 is a rebodied version of the Alstom Prima locomotives which were being built at the time, much like EMD built a rebodied version of the SD40-2 for the UK (the Class 59).

Alstom were at least able to emulate the visual cues of the Prima locomotives when designing the Class 67 body - something that EMD couldn't do with the UK version of the SD40-2 because they did not have any in-house double-ended locomotives at the time. This emulation of the visual cues would not have decreased the engineering work required when designing the Class 67 body - like the larger Prima locomotives, the Class 67 body is a load-bearing monocoque.

Is there a reason why foreign locos dont work through the tunnel and onwards , currently in France and have seen 66062 and another 66 working over here ?

As well as the tight loading gauge in Britain, I expect that Eurotunnel type approval would come into it when you're talking about the electric locos hauling trains through the Channel Tunnel.

The specifications for locomotives hauling freight through the tunnel are quite onerous, even to the point of the Class 92 basically having a completely duplicated electrical suite for redundancy. This will act as a disincentive for anyone to order new build Eurotunnel-compliant electric locomotives so long as there are enough Class 92 locos available - or at least able to be acquired from operators using them on UK domestic services (leasing contracts are no obstacle - everything's available for the right price).

It will be interesting to see if the regulations for some of the new Alpine base tunnels will be sufficiently more relaxed than those for the Channel Tunnel that it will prompt the EU to have another look into the monopolistic practices of Eurotunnel.

Errrrm, tunnel is electric traction only.

Of course!

However, that would certainly not be an obstacle to 'foreign' diesel locomotives working in the UK (just not through to the UK - they'd go through the Channel Tunnel dead in tow) if all the other obstacles (tight loading gauge, conversion to different signalling systems, etc) were not there - and if the industry conditions in the UK made it advantageous for the freight operators to do so.

There was a thread posted on here a year or two ago about GBRF acquiring a number of Series 66 locos and having them converted to UK-spec Class 66 as a way of acquiring more locos before the Tier 4 emissions requirements came in.

Looks more like a 59 going by light cluster

The Egyptian National Railways locos are most definitely the JT42CWRM (i.e. Series 66), not the GT26CW-SS (Class 59) version of the SD40-2. EMD hadn't been producing new-build locos with 645 engines for many years by the time the ENR order was placed.

The best way to tell is by confirming the actual EMD export type number - the shape of the light clusters is as close to meaningless as possible when that kind of detail would be specified by the operator placing the order according to the local practices.

 

[Loki]

There is no reason why the freight trains to Barking are not hauled using some other countries locomotives except that DB are using 92s at the moment. Indeed there were trials with both Prima 2 and Vectron through the tunnel. French BB22000 were used before class 92s. Sooner or later we'll see other electrics than the 92s as far as Barking.

 

[sarahj]

Quite a few of the euro 66's have had AC packs installed on the roof which makes them out of gauge for the UK. Those that have come back, have had to have this removed.

 

[GB]

Its my understanding that HS1 has a minimum freight speed of 90mph which is one of the reasons they are hauled by 92s.

 

[jopsuk]

the French BB22000s have a variant that can haul passenger services at 125mph- and those (as said) have previously had tunnel clearance. Could the redundancy requirements (the 92 has two separate tractions systems) be met by double heading? The Siemens Eurosprinter can do 140mph (some versions) whilst the Vectron has 120mph varients. Other manufacturers have other fast freight locos. It's simply(aha!) a case of an operator wanting them and ordering them to be certified for tunnel use.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Generally the limiter on freight speeds is not the loco, but the wagons. That and the fact that a fully laden intermodal service will need far more brakeforce to stop from 90/120mph than a comparable passenger service.

 

[DownSouth]

Generally the limiter on freight speeds is not the loco, but the wagons. That and the fact that a fully laden intermodal service will need far more brakeforce to stop from 90/120mph than a comparable passenger service.

Loaded intermodal wagons are not significantly heavier than express passenger trains, unless the containers are double-stacked which is not possible in Europe.

If equipped with modern ECP brakes, freight trains can get braking performance closer to passenger multiple units than to any traditional loco-hauled freight train. A big intermodal train can brake from 115 km/h to a stand well inside its own length with ECP - and then take off smartly too, thanks to ECP also allowing faster brake releases as well as application.

But if freight is restricted to running on high speed routes such as HS1 only at night (when the high speed passenger trains are tucked up in bed) then I don't see any reason that the freight trains couldn't all operate at classic freight speeds of around 75mph.

The same could apply to HS2 in the future, allowing greater flexibility and capacity for major north-south freight routes. It's for this reason alone that I'm of the opinion that the HS1-HS2 connecting line (going via the North London Line) should not have been dropped from the HS2 plans. Even if there will be little case for passenger trains to run from one to the other thanks to the closed border issue, an opportunity for creating the first UIC gauge freight route in Britain has been missed. At the least there should be a future-proof provision for a connection to the North London Line to be built west of the Old Oak Common passenger interchange, so a future gauge-clearing project could allow a HS1-HS2 connection at classic line speeds.

 

[Chris125]

Class 92s go through to France, and some have been used domestically in France

I don't think they have, they aren't fitted with French signalling equipment and though it's been proposed nothing has come of it.

The same could apply to HS2 in the future, allowing greater flexibility and capacity for major north-south freight routes.

HS2 isn't suitable for freight, as Alison Munro set out in a letter last year - impossible during the day and during the night the greater length compared to HS1, especially if trains are going to or from the Channel Tunnel in the same trip, the daily service pattern and the maintenance required on a significantly busier line all preclude it.

Even if a few paths could be found this isn't going to make much difference in the grand scheme of things, especially as train loads are already limited on HS1 (due to gradients I believe?) and presumably similar limits would apply to HS2. It just wouldn't be worth it and could never justify the cost of a link line for example.

Chris

 

[59CosG95]

All the talk of HS2 aside; it's a great shame we haven't ordered any more foreign locos-an electro-diesel Vectron would work really well on all sorts of freight services.

 

[gage75]

.

The Egyptian National Railways locos are most definitely the JT42CWRM (i.e. Series 66), not the GT26CW-SS (Class 59) version of the SD40-2. EMD hadn't been producing new-build locos with 645 engines for many years by the time the ENR order was placed.

The best way to tell is by confirming the actual EMD export type number - the shape of the light clusters is as close to meaningless as possible when that kind of detail would be specified by the operator placing the order according to the local practices.

I was inferring that they look like the 59's not that they are, also given they have bars over the windscreen and a/c unit on roof

 

[Juniper Driver]

Edit: Also, there's not much need for foreign 66s here, we've already got plenty of them yinging their way around the UK network.

 

[Peter66]

Egyptian state railways use them also.

More photos>

Notice the extra door on one side of the engine compartment and the air-con

Source: http://www.phantasrail.com/gm_class_66.htm

 

[jopsuk]

the freight capacity of HS2 is the WCML... that's half the justification

 

[Bevan Price]

The specifications for locomotives hauling freight through the tunnel are quite onerous, even to the point of the Class 92 basically having a completely duplicated electrical suite for redundancy. .

Is that why Class 92 is a bit unreliable - too many complicated electrical systems that can go wrong ???

 

[66Yorks]

66's are King!

 

[Jamesb1974]

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