Will Manchester ever see later night departures

[nw1]

The first train into London from Hatfield can be very busy (0419 or thereabouts) and I've seen the 0507 at Knebworth extremely busy, and with probably 85% of the occupants being asleep or near asleep!

If these are people going to work, it's a sad indictment of contemporary times that people are being asked to go into work at such times compared to the 1980s or 1990s when, IIRC, there were just about no trains arriving in London before about 0630.

If they are for people wanting to do something more exciting such as catching early flights or Eurostar trains, though, it's entirely another matter! (though my preference would be to book a hotel at the airport to avoid silly-o-clock travel...)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Worse was my experience in 2013 when it was impossible to get into Birmingham on the Cross City line before 0900 on a Sunday morning from Barnt Green - was genuinely surprised by this.

Sundays mornings are something else altogether, a long-standing shortcoming across the network in general (the first Euston to Manchester is also the first service from Stoke to Manchester, for example) that thankfully appears to regress as the years go by, be that through timetable changes in general or stipulation in new franchises. All that said mind, I am still to be convinced on the merits of Sunday timetables matching those of the other six days as some call for, Sunday trading laws are a massive hindrance to that for me.

 

[jon0844]

Depending on their role there are many people working for investment banks who need to be at their desks before 07.00 so that is hardly surprising. Just out of interest how long is the train?

It's four coaches, and there's a good mix of people. Many wearing clothing that suggests more manual labour work, a lot of rail staff for various TOCs and people who are clearly on their way home from a night out looking rather worse for wear (and, yes, they're heading into London not out).

The first public train out of King's Cross is also pretty busy, and again with a lot of people sleeping!

 

[faltskog36abba]

The late evening LM services out of Lime Street have a significant reputation for antisocial behaviour.

Sadly.

Hence the alcohol ban and the presence of security staff on Platform 8 on Saturday evenings.

I used to get the 23.20 northern train from lime street to man Victoria on a Saturday night, The train was rammed and everyone singing, drinking, and smoking-in the toilets. It didn't bother me as I had been on a night out, However I wouldn't like to get on a train like that if had finished work or had an alcohol free evening.

 

[Antman]

I used to get the 23.20 northern train from lime street to man Victoria on a Saturday night, The train was rammed and everyone singing, drinking, and smoking-in the toilets. It didn't bother me as I had been on a night out, However I wouldn't like to get on a train like that if had finished work or had an alcohol free evening.

I can very much understand that

 

[TUC]

Perhaps it is that last trains around 2300/2330 is the norm, and that the fact that London is a world city with nearly 15m people living within the metropolitan area, means the last trains to a few of the very busiest destinations go a little later?

Whether or not somewhere is a world city has very little to do with how late at night people want to stay out.

 

[sprinterguy]

And on the Snow Hill side, just the 2330 to Banbury and a 2334 to Whitlocks End. Very little in Birmingham that would necessitate anything into the small hours - most sport, arts and other social outings are likely done by 2300, and for the livelier side of the city's nightlife, anything before 0300 or so is too early!

I considered that 23:30 Banbury train a positive boon when I lived on the route of it's calling pattern, and certainly wouldn't have expected anything later, for the reasons that you state. When I moved further across the south west side of Birmingham to live on the periphery of the Warwickshire countryside, I accepted the fact that, on my then local line, the 23:34 to Whitlocks End would never prove useful because I lived one station beyond it's end of route and hence a taxi would always be less hassle to arrange from the city centre in the first place at that time of night.

Living as I do in Macclesfield now, I am chuffed to bits that there are trains home from Manchester at 22:50 and 23:14: If there are last trains back at round about traditional pub-kicking-out time then that seems alright to me. I still have difficulty getting my head around the fact that there are trains shuttling back and forth across the Pennines between Manchester and Leeds all night.

Having had to get back to the likes of Chinley and Whaley Bridge by taxi after late nights out in Manchester, I can appreciate the difficulties encountered by those living in the likes of Buxton, but it has to be considered that perhaps the comparatively low demand for late night connectivity to such relatively far flung rural locations isn't a particularly pressing concern to public transport operators, and is part of the trade-off for living in such bucolic areas.

From what I've seen and heard, the TOCs, and most pressingly the traincrew that have to work them, would much rather that even these existing late trains didn't run because of the unpleasant anti-social behaviour that is encountered on them, and there are increasing demands to deploy security staff on these last-out-of-town trains.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whether or not somewhere is a world city has very to do with how late at night people want to stay out.

Perhaps, but it certainly affects how many of them do it, and thus how viable late night mass public transport is

 

[rg177]

Some observations from this Thursday night (23:30)

Concourse had about 30 people on it

23:38 to Crewe seemed to have about 60% of seats taken and looked fairly well used.

23:50 to Sheffield has around 25% of seats taken. Though I'm not complaining, it's a handy service to get me back to uni halls nice and late, bizarrely not operating Saturday nights.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

 

[krus_aragon]

Signalling may not allow it and H&S would almost certainly prohibit it. (The days when guys could work next to a running line are - I suspect - in the past.)

Given that, it's a shame that there's such an imbalance in first/last trains on the Holyhead - Llandudno Jn route. The first westbound train through Bangor is at 07:50, three hours after the first eastbound, and the last eastbound is at 21:00, almost four hours before the last westbound service. Great if you head east for the day, not so much if you head west (e.g. to Bangor).

 

[TUC]

At the very least it does seem to be an accident of history which lines have late night running rather than any strategic plans.

 

[yorksrob]

Some observations from this Thursday night (23:30)

Concourse had about 30 people on it

23:38 to Crewe seemed to have about 60% of seats taken and looked fairly well used.

23:50 to Sheffield has around 25% of seats taken. Though I'm not complaining, it's a handy service to get me back to uni halls nice and late, bizarrely not operating Saturday nights.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

This doesn't entirely surprise me as the greatest demand for late evening services is likely to be for people going back home in the suburbs, rather than to the next city.

Of course, airport passengers are treated like Roman Emperors when it comes to allocating train resources, for some reason, so these are the services which are run.

 

[shredder1]

I was going to catch the first train from Manchester to Blythe Bridge this sunday for the Foxfield gala, but it looks like I`ll have to drive there

13:35 Manchester Piccadilly [MAN] Platform 6 Blythe Bridge [BYB] Platform 1 14:41 1h 06m
1
More Details on the 13:35 service from Manchester Piccadilly to Blythe Bridge

 

[nw1]

Sundays mornings are something else altogether, a long-standing shortcoming across the network in general (the first Euston to Manchester is also the first service from Stoke to Manchester, for example) that thankfully appears to regress as the years go by, be that through timetable changes in general or stipulation in new franchises. All that said mind, I am still to be convinced on the merits of Sunday timetables matching those of the other six days as some call for, Sunday trading laws are a massive hindrance to that for me.

I've noticed that, at least where I've been, continental countries seem to adopt a Sunday timetable that is basically the same as that of Saturdays, and that of the off-peak on weekdays - on both trains and buses. In other words, the standard pattern runs through the day, minus weekday peak extras. This includes the earlier morning period of 0630 to 0900 or thereabouts. This includes those countries which have more of an emphasis on religion than us, such as Greece and (from what I can make out) Austria.

 

[nw1]

This doesn't entirely surprise me as the greatest demand for late evening services is likely to be for people going back home in the suburbs, rather than to the next city.

Of course, airport passengers are treated like Roman Emperors when it comes to allocating train resources, for some reason, so these are the services which are run.

To be fair given the tendency of late night flights to be late (has happened to me twice, e.g. Gatwick 2200 arrival actually arrives 2330 so by the time you get through border bureaucracy you aren't at the station until well after midnight) I think there is a good argument for keeping trains going until, say, 0200 on lines through main airports.

 

[higthomas]

To be fair given the tendency of late night flights to be late (has happened to me twice, e.g. Gatwick 2200 arrival actually arrives 2330 so by the time you get through border bureaucracy you aren't at the station until well after midnight) I think there is a good argument for keeping trains going until, say, 0200 on lines through main airports.

But I think his point is that for most of us who only go flying once or twice a year, being in your local city centre after midnight is a much more likely occurrence than being at the airport late at night, yet when it comes to services in the north, the only late night ones cater to the occasional flyer rather than the much larger group of people working in the late night economy, going out etc.

 

[scrapy]

The late night/early morning trains often have more airport/airline staff than those travelling to/from holidays. These people do commute on a regular basis.

 

[noddingdonkey]

This doesn't entirely surprise me as the greatest demand for late evening services is likely to be for people going back home in the suburbs, rather than to the next city.

Of course, airport passengers are treated like Roman Emperors when it comes to allocating train resources, for some reason, so these are the services which are run.

To be honest, the airport service really overnight is really not great, at least from my local station Huddersfield.

The first few flights of the day are too early to get a train, with the first train arriving at 04.00, and flights starting at 05.25 so you would be advised to be at the airport for 03.25.

For arrivals, the last departure to Huddersfield is 00.38, which allowing an hour to get to the railway station after landing, means that the train is no use for anything landing between 23.30 and say 03.30.

That's around 25 flights, which assuming around 150 pax per flight is 3750 potential punters, so arguable a worthwhile potential custom.

 

[Chester1]

The late night/early morning trains often have more airport/airline staff than those travelling to/from holidays. These people do commute on a regular basis.

That was the basis of the business case for Manchester Airport Metrolink line and the reason why services start at 3am so that workers can use the tram for the 4am shift change. Firswood to Deansgate-Castlefield takes 7 minutes so extending the 3am to 6am services would only require an extra one more unit and extra staff for an extra 3 hours per day. Extending to Victoria could probably be run with only a second extra unit if it ran non stop between St Peters Square and Victoria (also maintain flexibility to close either route for repairs), at worst extending Firswood services to Victoria would require 3 extra units in use for 3 more hours a day, I suspect TfGM knows its viable on a Friday and Saturday and perhaps all week but doesn't want the hassle of serving well refreshed people at the end of a night out! I am not sure that many people commute to the Airport for shift work via train, unless you live in Manchester city centre the service is extremely patchy.

Has there been any indication of night service improvements from May 2018?

If the demand is sufficient then one unit could do a half hourly shuttle between Piccadilly and the Airport. The current fastest journey time is 14 minutes but a Northern 331 or maybe even a 319 running on a completely empty line should be able to knock a minute or two off that.

 

[Bald Rick]

To be honest, the airport service really overnight is really not great, at least from my local station Huddersfield.

The first few flights of the day are too early to get a train, with the first train arriving at 04.00, and flights starting at 05.25 so you would be advised to be at the airport for 03.25.

For arrivals, the last departure to Huddersfield is 00.38, which allowing an hour to get to the railway station after landing, means that the train is no use for anything landing between 23.30 and say 03.30.

That's around 25 flights, which assuming around 150 pax per flight is 3750 potential punters, so arguable a worthwhile potential custom.

A large proportion of those overnight arrivals are summer only. But even then, what proportion of those 3750 will want to get to Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds or York? 5%? And what proportion of those would actually get the train if it was there? Less than half? and how many of those wouldn't wait for the 0436?

Realistically, perhaps 50 passengers. Not a worthwhile customer base at all.

 

[Starmill]

Yes and the night tube only runs two nights a week. Metrolink run 21 hours a day every day from Firswood to the Airport. I think there are plans to run them from the city centre at somepoint.

They already run from the city centre - they run to Deansgate-Castlefield.

 

[Chester1]

They already run from the city centre - they run to Deansgate-Castlefield.

When did that happen? Must have been in the last few months, when the 2CC opened? It definitely ran only between Firswood and the Airport until 6am. 3:19am start time is not great though. The two/three and a half hour down period also coincides with the time most people want to go home.

 

[Philip]

Outside of London overnight rail services basically don't exist anywhere (minus some sporadic exceptions), so I don't see why Manchester should be an exception, since all cities have a nightlife and therefore your point could apply to any big urban area!

Railways need time for good maintenance in order to retain the excellent safety record we have in this country, so overnight is the most logical time to put a block on and allow thorough maintenance and repairs to take place. If you start running an overnight timetable, it'll mean more weekend closures and weekday daytime disruption.

 

[Chester1]

Outside of London overnight rail services basically don't exist anywhere (minus some sporadic exceptions), so I don't see why Manchester should be an exception, since all cities have a nightlife and therefore your point could apply to any big urban area!

Railways need time for good maintenance in order to retain the excellent safety record we have in this country, so overnight is the most logical time to put a block on and allow thorough maintenance and repairs to take place. If you start running an overnight timetable, it'll mean more weekend closures and weekday daytime disruption.

Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million and there are multiple routes in and out of the city centre. Services could opperate around closures. A limited service to Wigan, Stockport and Stalybridge would not affect engineering works. Manchester to Wigan can be run via Chat Moss, Atherton or Lostock. Stalybridge via Ashton-under-Lyne or Guide Bridge. Stockport via the WCML or Denton. Rochdale, Ashton-under-Lyne, Altrincham and Manchester Airport can be served by either train or Metrolink. There are plenty of options to work around closures before buses need to be considered.

 

[Philip]

Greater Manchester has a population of 2.6 million and there are multiple routes in and out of the city centre. Services could opperate around closures. A limited service to Wigan, Stockport and Stalybridge would not affect engineering works. Manchester to Wigan can be run via Chat Moss, Atherton or Lostock. Stalybridge via Ashton-under-Lyne or Guide Bridge. Stockport via the WCML or Denton. Rochdale, Ashton-under-Lyne, Altrincham and Manchester Airport can be served by either train or Metrolink. There are plenty of options to work around closures before buses need to be considered.

Working around closures will just disrupt the maintenance schedule as I said. If people choose to go out to the city and stay out until the early hours it is their choice and a taxi is a perfectly adequate means to get home (and has been so for decades) without impacting on rail maintenance.

As for the population figures, what about the West Midlands and West Yorkshire conurbations?

 

[Chester1]

Working around closures will just disrupt the maintenance schedule as I said. If people choose to go out to the city and stay out until the early hours it is their choice and a taxi is a perfectly adequate means to get home (and has been so for decades) without impacting on rail maintenance.

As for the population figures, what about the West Midlands and West Yorkshire conurbations?

Do the maintenance schedules require most of the lines around Manchester to be out of use on the same nights on regular basis? What about a Friday and Saturday night service? The example of Victoria to Stockport proves my point. There are two routes that it could take which share only a few hundred metres of a 4 track railway. If the time table was based on the slowest and terminating at Victoria, then on introduction of a 2 night a week service would allow 6 days a week for maintance of both routes. don't know enough about the lines the other side of the Pennines to know what if any night services would be viable.

A taxis is expensive compared with public transport even when using Uber. Many people complain about lack of Sunday rail services. On the basis of your thinking if people can travel with a limited bus service and have managed for decades then why bother introducing more Sunday services? If a service can be reasonably managed and would be fairly well loaded why not do it?

 

[Philip]

Do the maintenance schedules require most of the lines around Manchester to be out of use on the same nights on regular basis? What about a Friday and Saturday night service? The example of Victoria to Stockport proves my point. There are two routes that it could take which share only a few hundred metres of a 4 track railway. If the time table was based on the slowest and terminating at Victoria, then on introduction of a 2 night a week service would allow 6 days a week for maintance of both routes. don't know enough about the lines the other side of the Pennines to know what if any night services would be viable.

A taxis is expensive compared with public transport even when using Uber. Many people complain about lack of Sunday rail services. On the basis of your thinking if people can travel with a limited bus service and have managed for decades then why bother introducing more Sunday services? If a service can be reasonably managed and would be fairly well loaded why not do it?

A lot of people need to travel on Sundays on order to get back to where they need to be at the start of the week, so increasing Sunday services is important. People don't 'need' to stay out until the early hours boozing, it's their choice, but I don't think the railway and rail companies should need to work around and start running overnight services in order to cater for revellers.

Another point to consider (if not already mentioned) is safety; would it be wise allowing large, different groups of drunken people to all wait at a station and board a train together? The potential for things turning nasty seems quite high and more so if things go wrong and a train is cancelled or gets held at a signal for a while. At least the taxi is a private method of transport and that seems more sensible when you have large groups of drunken clubbers all trying to get home.

 

[Starmill]

When did that happen? Must have been in the last few months, when the 2CC opened? It definitely ran only between Firswood and the Airport until 6am. 3:19am start time is not great though. The two/three and a half hour down period also coincides with the time most people want to go home.

The timetable changed on the day the Second City Crossing opened. Here are the first and last times of services from Deansgate=Castlefield to Manchester Airport. Note how Friday and Saturday are different to other days. I'm sure most people can work around a 0020 direct tram all the way back to Whythenshawe!



It's not just the Airport factor at work with the evening service though. The final service to Altrincham (which is almost entirely a suburban line) is 2355 MTuWThO 0055 FSO and 2243 SuO.

Clearly Yorksrob ought to have bought a house in Old Trafford or Stretford.