Will pre-9.30 AM free concessionary travel become permanent?

[overthewater]

Hospital appointments? Needing to catch a connection? They is plenty of reasons why some OAP need to travel before 09.30

 

[Pat1105]

Hospital appointments? Needing to catch a connection? They is plenty of reasons why some OAP need to travel before 09.30

Yes, and as I’ve said I completely understand these. But from what I see, most are just going out shopping and prefer to go out at that time. That is what I don’t understand. I feel this is getting rather repetitive and we’re going round in circles here. I think I’ll just leave it there.

 

[markymark2000]

The trouble with low level fees like this is that, if introduced, one would find almost all the money was absorbed by the additional bureaucracy costs in administering it.

If you can cover the admin costs, it means the money which currently goes on admin can instead go to operator reimbursement.



In my opinion, a fee in some way should be payable for the OAP concessionary passes. Preferably an admin fee for issuing the card.
One of the good scheme I found for pre 9.30 travel was at Cheshire East. If you have a pass, you pay half fare (and I don't think the operators get any reimbursement for that). This then provides revenue for the operator, costs the councils little-nothing as not as much reimbursement is needed and allows elderly to travel slightly cheaper. D&G used to run a route 89 from Nantwich to Wrexham on a Friday and it was timed to leave Nantwich at 09:25 and made around £10-15. While not a lot, it would have covered the costs one way (with the wait in Wrexham and the return journey covered by the council as part of the tender). While it does lead to people winging about 'well if I walk up the road, I can get on for free', it is a fair compromise. You will never please the elderly until you give them everything for free. They believe they are entitled to everything and that is what is wrong the scheme. Keep it as it is and people get used to it but the second you go to change it to charge fares or change the eligibility, they all kick off saying we are forcing them to be prisoner in their own home and god knows what else. Pay little in taxes but want all the benefits. You can't have both.
(To back up this point, I refer you to some of the articles from Manchester when TFGM said that if concessionary pass holder want to travel on the tram or train network in the peak, they have to pay a £10 annual fee. People claiming they would be isolated. What? because you can't travel on a train or bus at peak time? The buses are still available all day but that isn't good enough for them).


To answer the OP, Pre 9.30 travel won't continue. It's been allowed to happen now partly due to less people travelling. Less people travelling means more money available and the money is ring fenced so you might as well spend it. Taking off the time limit also helped the councils get a news article out of it and it allowed elderly to get to the supermarkets for time which was set aside for them to shop.

 

[Typhoon]

Maybe those OAP's going shopping like to go early for some reason?
Maybe the shops are quieter at 08:00-08:30 in the morning or they like to be back early to do something else later in the day?
I expect most will use the free pass on the return journey as well.
Not sure how its a problem though.

A couple of additional reasons why they (I) have gone out 'early'. Education courses (keep the brain active) and voluntary work. Buy a single in the morning, return using the pass. If you travel from. say, 08:30 to 09:30, you might get the bus to yourself!

 

[AM9]

As i’m sure you’ll understand, I’m not suggesting that OAPs aren’t entitled to use peak time services. I just don’t understand why those who are lucky enough to have the gift of free travel don’t use it to its full potential, instead wishing to travel earlier and pay for the privilege when they can wait until their pass entitles them to travel free of charge. I completely understand that there are certain circumstances where people have to travel at an earlier time than 9.30, such as those that @Busaholic mentions above. I’m only speaking about what I’ve seen in my area where there are some OAPs that get on pre 9.30 for shopping (they’re pushing shopping trollies so I presume that’s what they’re doing). Maybe it’s different in other areas? The ENCTS scheme is a great scheme that not only encourages the elderly to get out and about, but also combats a variety of social issues as well, such as tackling loneliness which is becoming an ever increasing issue. I just don’t want to see it pulled altogether because of cuts to funding, so the more people who use it fully and for what it was designed for, to allow the elderly to travel for free, the better.

Although it was't posted by you, these words expressed in post #9 typify an increasing view of ENCTS users:

I disagree fully with any free travel prior to 09:30 for two reasons; 1. It's funding local councils have to find at risk to other services and 2. It's often abused by free pass users making buses full and standing thus making buses unavailable for those who actually do have to travel eg shift workers etc

They are using the buses, not abusing them. If there really is such a load on the services then they are just as likely to have to stand or even be unable to board. If buses are 'public' transport, it seems that some members of the public see their wishes/needs to travel as being more justified than others.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Although it was't posted by you, these words expressed in post #9 typify an increasing view of ENCTS users:

They are using the buses, not abusing them. If there really is such a load on the services then they are just as likely to have to stand or even be unable to board. If buses are 'public' transport, it seems that some members of the public see their wishes/needs to travel as being more justified than others.

However, the concern is that ENCTS holders will simply affect capacity in the morning peak where commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow.

ENCTS is a benefit not a right - a benefit that the users do not pay for and have not paid into.

 

[Typhoon]

In my opinion, a fee in some way should be payable for the OAP concessionary passes. Preferably an admin fee for issuing the card.

No problem, I'm amazed there isn't one. There is for Blue Badge holders.

You will never please the elderly until you give them everything for free. They believe they are entitled to everything and that is what is wrong the scheme. ...

Rather a sweeping generalisation! In my experience older 'elderly' can be particularly reluctant to ask for help.

 

[scotrail158713]

Yes, and as I’ve said I completely understand these. But from what I see, most are just going out shopping and prefer to go out at that time. That is what I don’t understand. I feel this is getting rather repetitive and we’re going round in circles here. I think I’ll just leave it there.

If they’re happy to pay when they could wait an hour and go for free, then I’m happy for them to do that. It’s their money they’re using, and they have just as much a right to travel as anyone else. (If it was me I’d be waiting until I could go for free - but I’m a cheapskate )

 

[Typhoon]

However, the concern is that ENCTS holders will simply affect capacity in the morning peak where commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow.

True. Afternoon 'peak' is spread from 15:00 (or earlier) to 18:00 as schools seem to kick out earlier. Morning peak is much more congested - and the current system is much easier to keep a check on. When West Midlands had an 'off peak' weekly ticket (no travel morning or evening peak travel). I could catch a bus at about 15:15 and get off at about 16:30 (route 11A), well into the rush hour but within their rules.

I occasionally catch the 05:20something to travel into the countryside, this is not essential for me and will, at some point, involve peak travel. I am quite happy to buy a ticket as I don't have to do that, I could walk more locally. The previrus system was fine, you could get out but cause minimal disruption to the work force. As far as a big bulge at 09:30 goes, if you are sensible you wait for the next one! There is the whole day ahead!

 

[talltim]

But those concessionary passes weren't available back in the 70s and 80s......

That’s why they were too early...

 

[talltim]

As i’m sure you’ll understand, I’m not suggesting that OAPs aren’t entitled to use peak time services. I just don’t understand why those who are lucky enough to have the gift of free travel don’t use it to its full potential, instead wishing to travel earlier and pay for the privilege when they can wait until their pass entitles them to travel free of charge. I completely understand that there are certain circumstances where people have to travel at an earlier time than 9.30, such as those that @Busaholic mentions above. I’m only speaking about what I’ve seen in my area where there are some OAPs that get on pre 9.30 for shopping (they’re pushing shopping trollies so I presume that’s what they’re doing). Maybe it’s different in other areas? The ENCTS scheme is a great scheme that not only encourages the elderly to get out and about, but also combats a variety of social issues as well, such as tackling loneliness which is becoming an ever increasing issue. I just don’t want to see it pulled altogether because of cuts to funding, so the more people who use it fully and for what it was designed for, to allow the elderly to travel for free, the better.

The more people that use it fully, the more likely it is to be pulled.

 

[Aictos]

However, the concern is that ENCTS holders will simply affect capacity in the morning peak where commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow.

ENCTS is a benefit not a right - a benefit that the users do not pay for and have not paid into.

Exactly, commuters and school traffic don't have the freedom of when they travel in the morning peak, ENCTS holders do have the freedom to travel at any time and should do after 09:30.

 

[AM9]

Exactly, commuters and school traffic don't have the freedom of when they travel in the morning peak, ENCTS holders do have the freedom to travel at any time and should do after 09:30.

You don't know that, - it's been discussed in several posts here that ENCTS travel is not used just for leisure travel. So it's not only commuters that have a real reson to travel before 09:30. ENCTS is a benefit that once issued gives the holder the right to use public transport when they want or need to, subject to whatever time limits it may have of course. Nobody can claim otherwise.

 

[Aictos]

You don't know that, - it's been discussed in several posts here that ENCTS travel is not used just for leisure travel. So it's not only commuters that have a real reson to travel before 09:30.

I disagree, commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow in the morning peak so should get priority over ENCTS holders.

Being unable to get a seat in the morning peak because the bus is full of ENCTS holders happens every day in my home city which is partly why I'm glad I moved away.

 

[AM9]

I disagree, commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow in the morning peak so should get priority over ENCTS holders.

Being unable to get a seat in the morning peak because the bus is full of ENCTS holders happens every day in my home city which is partly why I'm glad I moved away.

So some of those standing will be ENCTS travellers, that's the way it goes.

 

[Pat1105]

So some of those standing will be ENCTS travellers, that's the way it goes.

Not always. People may have to give up seats to ENCTS holders, as some may be unable to stand.

 

[Taunton]

The problem for many bus operators in England is that 9.30am is now the ‘rush hour’ when all of the concessionary pass holders descend on the bus because they ‘have to’ go shopping at that time, or they have booked an early doctors appointment because they ‘can’t’ go any later.

Possibly you could devote your organising abilities first to managing a hospital appointment system that gives you an 09.00 time without discussion, and when you get there you find that 15 people have all been given the same time, some of whom will still be waiting 3 hours later as the one doctor works through the list.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Possibly you could devote your organising abilities first to managing a hospital appointment system that gives you an 09.00 time without discussion, and when you get there you find that 15 people have all been given the same time, some of whom will still be waiting 3 hours later as the one doctor works through the list.

Fair enough but how often are ENCTS holders placed in the position where they have a hospital appointment at 0900? Once a month? Once a week? Infrequent enough to say that for that instance, they will have to pay?

 

[Rod Harrison]

In the current circumstances, and, for the foreseeable future, stopping free travel before 9.30 would be essential to prioritise people, and pupils, going to work and school to help reduce the likelihood of a further spike in infections.

 

[mwmbwls]

Tony Blair's Labour Government had long championed the idea of focusing on social and economic exclusion, establishing a specific Social Exclusion Unit (SEU) in 1997.This became part of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to drive this agenda across government departments and policymaking activity. The ENCTS system was introduced by John Prescott. The costs of administering a selective system - (only poor or disabled pensioners qualify) was found to be more expensive than universal distribution to all over a qualifying age. The same principle applies to the Winter Fuel Allowance The precedent for concessionary travel for Pensioners was set by Ken Livingstone in London.(Remember London's buses run under a different regime to the rest of the country - TfL manages the fare box) The Conservatives as part of Oliver Letwin's "Bonfire of The Quangos" abolished the SEU but kept the benefit which was seen then, and still is a political third rail. Pensioners can and do vote in sufficient numbers to influence elections. You can stop them travelling but you can't stop them voting.
It can also be argued that ENCTS acts an indirect subsidy to bus operators - in that it boosts their off-peak revenues. If it goes they will raise fares on remaining passengers.

 

[Pat1105]

It can also be argued that ENCTS acts an indirect subsidy to bus operators - in that it boosts their off-peak revenues. If it goes they will raise fares on remaining passengers.

I think the whole reason fares are high in many areas is the ENCTS scheme. Operators are getting less and less reimbursement for ENCTS every year, despite the same level of pass use, so have to increase their fares for paying passengers to make up for it.

 

[markymark2000]

Rather a sweeping generalisation! In my experience older 'elderly' can be particularly reluctant to ask for help.

It is but while a good few are reluctant to ask for help, there are many many more who will make some noise claiming they aren't cared about and we are isolating them and believe it is a right to use these services at any time (as has been mentioned in the thread). You might want to go and look at some of the comments which get made when councils try to reign in the concessionary passes.

I think the whole reason fares are high in many areas is the ENCTS scheme. Operators are getting less and less reimbursement for ENCTS every year, despite the same level of pass use, so have to increase their fares for paying passengers to make up for it.

Pass reimbursement in many areas is based on average fare foregone and therefore the fares have to be high to get a decent reimbursement on those routes which are pass heavy.

 

[PeterC]

However, the concern is that ENCTS holders will simply affect capacity in the morning peak where commuters and school traffic is the main traffic flow.

ENCTS is a benefit not a right - a benefit that the users do not pay for and have not paid into.

So all the pensioners who avoid the afternoon services because they are full of schookids are suddenly going to pile onto the morning services that carry the school traffic?

 

[Pat1105]

So all the pensioners who avoid the afternoon services because they are full of schookids are suddenly going to pile onto the morning services that carry the school traffic?

Yes, because what we’ve been saying is some OAPs prefer to go out in the early morning. Not because they always have to, but because of preference.

 

[Llandudno]

Like most public transport ticketing in the UK the system is far too complicated.

This is what I would do:

At Age 60 everyone receives a photo travel card entitling them to:

Perhaps call it a Gold Card

Free bus/tram/LU travel after 0930 Mon-Fri Until 0100, and anytime Sat-Sun.
Half price bus/tram/LU travel before 0930 Mon-Fri
A senior citizens and National Express/Megabus railcard/ with current discounts/availability
Free prescriptions, eye tests, dental check ups etc and the card then can be used as ID for any commercial attraction/football club etc who offer OAP discounts.
Various shops, cafes etc could offer incentives for pass holders and create a kind of Gold Card Club with all the companies taking part listed on a Gold Card website, might help regenerate our high streets?


One of the benefits of giving OAPs free/discounted travel is to try and encourage them to give up the car, along with the environmental benefits it may reduce the number of accidents caused by elderly drivers

 

[Pat1105]

The more people that use it fully, the more likely it is to be pulled.

I disagree. The more people who use the scheme fully, the more worthwhile it is, as it is being used for its purpose.

 

[Typhoon]

From what I’ve seen, I don’t tend to see many OAPs on the buses in the afternoon/evening peak. It tends to be schoolchildren and people returning home from work. Maybe the schoolchildren scare them off?

You soon find out which schools instill discipline into their students!

 

[Pat1105]

You soon find out which schools instill discipline into their students!

Yes, the behaviour of some schoolchildren is better than others. There are 2 schools on my local route, and the service is packed with children around 3 o’clock. The difference in the behaviour of the two is completely different. The one school queue to get on the bus, and don’t push and shove. The other is completely the opposite!

 

[Typhoon]

It is but while a good few are reluctant to ask for help, there are many many more who will make some noise claiming they aren't cared about and we are isolating them and believe it is a right to use these services at any time (as has been mentioned in the thread). You might want to go and look at some of the comments which get made when councils try to reign in the concessionary passes.

Perhaps I haven't heard much about problems because the county (Kent) hasn't reigned in concessionary fares much. There is an optional £1 fare on taxibus services that were set up, whether people pay, I have no idea but I haven't heard any complaints. They moved the start time from 09:00 to 09:30 some years back - mumblings and empty 09:00 buses, that's all.
I know too many who will not ask for help, I've given up trying to guide them in the right direction. "You can take a horse to water …". They may not have paid for these services but some fought for them.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It can also be argued that ENCTS acts an indirect subsidy to bus operators - in that it boosts their off-peak revenues. If it goes they will raise fares on remaining passengers.

No it can't - it was originally to be on a no better, no worse basis for operators for revenue forgone NOT a subsidy. Since 2010 and the change to funding, operators are now worse off.