Will the Tyne and wear metro go ATO?

[Tubefan2013]

Hi, I am new to this forum so exuse me if this is not in the right place but I think it is. Is there any plans for the Tyne and wear metro to go ATO with a new signaling system presumably like TBTC, Citiflow ect. I know the metro has interface with the sunderland line but I am talking about the existing metro lines here.
I know the metro has several level crossings but I think a new high capacity signaling system would be good! Currently the metro runs 23 TPH I think? 27 TPH would be great! Anyone think the same??

 

[142094]

Simple answer - No.

Longer answer - the interface with the Sunderland extension would make it very complicated, and there would have to be a lot of work on new signalling arrangements and rolling stock modifications. Plus the unions would be up in arms.

 

[Ze Random One]

Added to the automated open level crossings, and foot crossings, which would be very difficult to change, I can't see there being automated operation without substantial investment in road bridges.

In all honesty, the headways achieveable on the existing system are sufficient to cover the existing demand. Along the South Gosforth - Pelaw stretch, I have never seen the short turns (Pelaw terminators) full. In fact I believe we need slightly fewer of them and a better frequency on the branches, but I'm not so sure that's achieveable without additional investment in the Hebburn area (double track), and more units.

 

[AutoKratz]

I asked someone from Nexus this very question a few months back and the reply was "not a chance in hell".

 

[Tubefan2013]

I see.
However I wonder when the new trains come and signaling what it will be? I can't see it being normal fixed block signaling with manually driven trains. I know the metro has less overall demand compared to the London underground. Yet I seem to recall somewhere that ATO could be possible on the South Gosforth Pelaw strech?

 

[Ze Random One]

I see.
However I wonder when the new trains come and signaling what it will be? I can't see it being normal fixed block signaling with manually driven trains. I know the metro has less overall demand compared to the London underground. Yet I seem to recall somewhere that ATO could be possible on the South Gosforth Pelaw strech?

Possibly true. However the problem is not overall system capacity, and particularly not overall capacity (in terms of passenger space per hour), it's the expense of improving the peak frequencies on the outer reaches. Coming from the South, it is typical to find the services from Sunderland / S Shields absolutely rammed by Pelaw, but the Pelaw starters (which are every other train in the peak) have spare seats (and oodles of standing room) usually until Gateshead Stadium, and only ever pack out if there's a problem. Even a modest change in the headways on the branches at this time would do much for crowding levels, particularly the Wallsend-Monument section which I understand is very crowded (and only 5tph) during the peak.
The problem is that even with a reduction in the number of Pelaw terminators, a substantial investment in drivers and units would be required just to move to a 6tph peak service. And this is the sole reason why ATO would ever be worthwhile - for the same reason it's used on the DLR, to reduce labour costs (remember a DLR 'captain' earns about 75% of a Tube driver's salary) particularly on the branches.
But it's these sections which would be the most costly to convert, with three level crossings north of the Tyne, and the interface with NR metals south of it.
The signalling system itself is fairly modern, using an Indusi trainstop system, and should T&W metro truly need a substantial increase in capacity, a large part of the system has passive provision for 3-unit services (if you're ever on it, the underground stations all have an additional area to one end of the station box which is not fitted out), in place of the 2-unit services used now. This would add 50% to the capacity without requiring any more drivers and using the existing permanent way.

 

[Tubefan2013]

Thanks for your detailed post. I suspect when the new trains come that it could be a three car formulation perhaps even joined together (All one train) Simerlar to the S stock. However I agree in the peaks it can be very crowded and even off peak I have seen trains standing room only. I think metro frequency is pretty poor espically along the coast with 5 tph. Or a 12 minute frequency. On the central part of the metro South Gosforth to Pelaw is somewhat more acceptable of around 3-6 minutes headway. However I don't think metro is seeing the rapid growth like the tube is doing now?

 

[Mojo]

Longer answer - the interface with the Sunderland extension would make it very complicated

Although three parts of the Underground: Amersham - Harrow on the Hill, East Putney - Wimbledon and Gunnersbury Junction - Wimbledon have National Rail trains and LU trains sharing the same tracks and in the next few years will have LU trains operating under ATO with NR trains still being manually operated.

 

[Tubefan2013]

Trouble is that the London underground will eventually be 100% ATO all lines will have it installed. ATO and a High Capacity signaling system is going to be the way forward for many railways in the future. Metro need to reduce journey times too however metro is arkward as it joines NR lines at Pelaw junction. Unless it could run in some sort of Overlay mode? Who can see the metro being manually driven when new trains and signaling come?
I have asked metro about this and they don't have any plans. I do like ATO as trains are faster however the downside is the way they are driven can be a bit harsh for standing passengers. Prehaps metro should just go driverless like DLR.

 

[Anon Mouse]

Driverless trains on a route shared with heavy rail? err no thank you and then also putting Metro drivers out of a job?

I can't see how the Metro needs to be sped up, it runs at as decent a speed as required given the amount of stops and average commute time of 20 odd minuites is pretty good going if you ask me and I can see the Metro running with drivers for as long as I can imagine.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Thanks for your detailed post. I suspect when the new trains come that it could be a three car formulation perhaps even joined together (All one train) Simerlar to the S stock. . . .

I regret that I don't quite understand your language here. However, if you meant to speculate on 6-car trains, then I can confirm that in its current review of future options, (and recalling that all underground stations were constructed with platforms capable of accomodating 6-car trains), that Nexus is considering 6-car trains as one of may options available for the future.

I'll also add that such a decision is likely to require the lengthening of the majority of surface stations, at enormous cost. So I hope you'll agree with me that while it is a sensible option to be evaluating, it would also be a reasonable decision to find it uneconomically justifiable to pursue any further.

 

[Mojo]

Driverless trains on a route shared with heavy rail? err no thank you and then also putting Metro drivers out of a job?

ATO just means automatically operated trains; there would still be a member of staff in the cab. Unattended Train Operation (UTO) is the most common term for driverless trains, although other terms exist.

 

[34D]

I'll also add that such a decision is likely to require the lengthening of the majority of surface stations, at enormous cost. So I hope you'll agree with me that while it is a sensible option to be evaluating, it would also be a reasonable decision to find it uneconomically justifiable to pursue any further.

There is of course the possibility of selective door opening at the smaller stations - assuming a 6 vehicle formation with a gangway and a 4 (or perhaps 4.5) vehicle platform, the front and back vehicles could (theoretically) be off the platforms without too much of an issue.

 

[Anon Mouse]

ATO just means automatically operated trains; there would still be a member of staff in the cab. Unattended Train Operation (UTO) is the most common term for driverless trains, although other terms exist.

I was more concerned about the last bit of the comment stating "perhaps metro should go driverless like the DLR" I still don't like the idea of ATO/UTO as its heading in that direction!

 

[jopsuk]

Plus the unions would be up in arms.

Paris has demonstrated that if you work with the unions on a long term plan, it is perfectly possible to convert a maunally driven service to UTO- Ligne 1 of the Metro is the prime example, and French unions tend to make even the RMT look timid.

 

[Tubefan2013]

Its quite intresting how the majoriy don't think ATO or UTO would not work well. However though when they do get the new signaling what type is it likely to be? I know for some ATO is a bit boring and worse for Drivers who like driving the train.

 

[bluenoxid]

A signalling system that works I hope.

The level Crossings north of the Tyne are getting fitted with lovely yellow boxes as far as I am aware so that should reduce the risk of an offensive interface.

New trains are beyond 2019 as far as I am aware.

I do agree that the services beyond the existing terminating points are the ones that need extra capacity but there is a limit to what can be achieved.

I think the most important thing to restore is improving punctuality.

 

[142094]

Gatso cameras have a one big disadvantage - they are only for vehicles. It is a daily occurrence where someone with two legs decides to chance it.

In reality I cannot see any benefit to changing over the whole system and a having to come to an agreement with Network Rail to change their infrastructure for ATO. You can run extra trains at the minute to improve capacity, without having to change the signalling.

Not sure why 6 car operation has been mentioned - the underground stations were designed to allow easy expansion to allow a 3-car operation in future, which would more that cater for the demand at present. There are also several reversing sidings and the capacity of the depot to take into account, and again there is the need to look at the costs associated with future investment.

What is likely to happen IMO in the near future will be more stock to increase frequencies, then followed by platform extensions. No point in jumping straight to ATO when you can do both of those at a much reduced cost.

 

[swt_passenger]

Not sure why 6 car operation has been mentioned - the underground stations were designed to allow easy expansion to allow a 3-car operation in future, which would more that cater for the demand at present.

I think the 6/3 'confusion' is just the same sort of thing as you get with the DLR. Some people might refer to the single Metro 'unit' as a two car, and what you get running around normally as a four car.

So the reference to a future 6 car really meant 3 car, IYSWIM?

 

[142094]

Possibly, although to avoid all doubt, in normal service one trip working is formed by two Metrocar units coupled together. One Metrocar = one number (i.e. 40xx).

 

[Tubefan2013]

I hope the next generation of stock will be much the same to the London Underground S stock, I.E all carriages joined together. I heard someone say a German company was bidding for the new rolling stock, i can only presume it could be Siemens? As Alstlom are french. However I think the french build some great trains.

 

[142094]

I hope the next generation of stock will be much the same to the London Underground S stock, I.E all carriages joined together. I heard someone say a German company was bidding for the new rolling stock, i can only presume it could be Siemens? As Alstlom are french. However I think the french build some great trains.

I'd be very worried if any company was bidding for the new rolling stock, seeing as:

1) The funding is not in place yet
2) The spec has not been drawn up.

Remember the current fleet is just going through a 3/4 life refurbishment so replacement stock will be a few years off.

 

[bluenoxid]

I'd be very worried if any company was bidding for the new rolling stock, seeing as:

1) The funding is not in place yet
2) The spec has not been drawn up.

Remember the current fleet is just going through a 3/4 life refurbishment so replacement stock will be a few years off.

Some companies are happy to expand on their product range if it gives them potential head start on competitors.

 

[Tubefan2013]

yet I know this is different but the Jubilee line ran 24 TPH previously which is about the same on what the metro runs at peak times now? Jubilee line increased it to 30 TPH with the new signaling and ATO. I can't see how you can run more trains if the signaling is fixed block.

 

[Manchester77]

yet I know this is different but the Jubilee line ran 24 TPH previously which is about the same on what the metro runs at peak times now? Jubilee line increased it to 30 TPH with the new signaling and ATO. I can't see how you can run more trains if the signaling is fixed block.

I think metrolink can just about at Cornbrook. No more can be added though. ATM you have:-
ALT PIC
SWR S&C
ECC PIC
MCU PIC
ALT BUR
All at 12 minute frequencies each...
So you tell me.......

 

[142094]

It can be done at the minute - at Christmas there were extra services throughout the day - these were not in the timetable but ran in addition to normal peak hour services.

 

[Tubefan2013]

The central core of metro ( South Gosforth to Pelaw) the frequency is ok in the peaks however there is still many trains which are packed to capacity. However St James via the coast needs more trains per hour. Every 12 minutes on average is a poor frequency it should be much higher. Every 8 minutes is better

 

[markydh]

The coastal service used to have a better peak frequency but these were sacrificed when DB Regio (now Arriva) won the operating concession in order to provide a better peak service through the central core. It's unlikely this will change until new units are ordered early next decade.

 

[Tubefan2013]

In the peak and even during the day off peak I have seen many trains at near or standing room only. In the central core trains are always full it seems to be queiter once past Gateshead though. Also with 4001 and 4002 not getting refurbished we will have less trains once the refurbishment is complete. Since DB took over the metro the service has got worse and the frequency on some parts of the line Mainly Sunderland line, Airport branch and St James via the coast. Can't wait for new trains but I can't see that happening till at least 2025 according to nexus forum.

 

[34D]

Also with 4001 and 4002 not getting refurbished we will have less trains once the refurbishment is complete.

Will these two be used in their present form, or are they to be withdrawn?