Wisbech-March line reopening cost increase to £200m

[joebassman]

No through services to Cambridge either direct or via Soham and Newmarket.

But then the report says to get the heavy rail option to run regular heavy rail services to cambridge the cost is likely to be around £1bn. Surely a light rail route could be built to cambridge for cheaper or what about one of the new tram trains? The light rail would negate the problem of level crossings I think as the one I went on in Wimbledon just used traffic lights at road crossings.
Also apologies if this has been covered before, is in the right place and if I'm being a bit dim, but what is the point of a guided busway over just tarmacing over and then putting lift barriers at each end to stop cars?
As far as I can see the guided system just allows the driver to take his hands off the wheel but still has to operate the pedals so I can't see how that would be much more effort.

 

[joebassman]

The issue with that is you'd have an isolated "light rail" branch running half a dozen miles on a single route - it's unlikely to be viable on that basis.

Let's look at the light rail systems we actually have in this country and see how they match up to this:

DLR - a 25 mile network with an annual ridership of 122 million
Tyne & Wear Metro a 50 mile network, annual ridership 36 million
NET a 20 mile network, annual ridership 19 million
West Mids Metro 13 miles, annual ridership 6 million
Sheffield Supertram 21 miles, annual ridership 12 million
Croydon tramlink 17 miles, annual ridership 29 million
Manchester Metrolink 62 miles, annual ridership 44 million

I very much doubt Wisbech would even attract 10% the ridership of the West Mids metro - bearing in mind the WMM is running through the centre of Birmingham.

But it's still quite a considerably cheaper option than the heavy rail one recommend in the report and funnily enough wisbech did at one point actually have it's own light rail service

 

[duffield]

The issue with that is you'd have an isolated "light rail" branch running half a dozen miles on a single route - it's unlikely to be viable on that basis.
...

I don't see why you would class it as 'isolated' when you've got the potential for through running to e.g. Ely using tram-trains.
Edit: If it was a tram only system, I'd agree; the reason for tram-train is in this particular case *purely* to get around issues like the level crossing->bridge expenses while allowing through running onto the National Rail network, rather than to form part of a wider tram network as per the Sheffield tram trains.

 

[HSTEd]

I'm not sure the rural nature of the route can really be used as an argument about why a light rail solution with tram trains is impractical.

It would be a single track branch, possibly with a very simple OLE system.
It would be absolutely nothing like any extant light rail system in the UK.

 

[Midnight Sun]

But then the report says to get the heavy rail option to run regular heavy rail services to cambridge the cost is likely to be around £1bn.

The 3 way Ely North Junction is going to be rebuilt anyway. it's current layout is a bottleneck

 

[158756]

I don't see why you would class it as 'isolated' when you've got the potential for through running to e.g. Ely using tram-trains.
Edit: If it was a tram only system, I'd agree; the reason for tram-train is in this particular case *purely* to get around issues like the level crossing->bridge expenses while allowing through running onto the National Rail network, rather than to form part of a wider tram network as per the Sheffield tram trains.

Running to Ely would run into the same capacity problem as heavy rail, unless you built a new tram route into Ely. Based on the Rotherham scheme once you start running tram trains onto the national network that would require electrification and changes to signalling as well, so the extra costs there probably outweigh the savings between March and Wisbech.

 

[jayah]

Does Wisbech-March even make most sense? The fact that some (unusable) track is already there, seems to have made that the only option.

But there used to be another route from Wisbech that joined the Ely-Kings Lynn line at Watlington. Maybe it would be cheaper to reinstate that (with fewer crossings), still providing through services to Ely/Cambridge but also to Kings Lynn.

The assumption is that a fast service to Cambridge will open up job opportunities and regenerate a left behind part of the fens, but is that where the locals want to go?

Wisbech is a big place in it's own right.
Ely and Cambridge are higher order centres. It is a very good fit although Kings Lynn would be drawing much traffic as their nearest place of a higher order.

 

[HSTEd]

Running to Ely would run into the same capacity problem as heavy rail, unless you built a new tram route into Ely. Based on the Rotherham scheme once you start running tram trains onto the national network that would require electrification and changes to signalling as well, so the extra costs there probably outweigh the savings between March and Wisbech.

Well tram-trains certainly don't require electrification.

 

[eastdyke]

Wisbech is a big place in it's own right.
Ely and Cambridge are higher order centres. It is a very good fit although Kings Lynn would be drawing much traffic as their nearest place of a higher order.

Depends upon what you mean by 'higher order'.
In pure population terms Wisbech is over 30,000, Ely probably around 22,000.
Existing transport links for Wisbech are more East-West.
Improve links to the South and Wisbech becomes a more attractive place to live for those working in Cambridge. And up go house prices in Wisbech ... . That might suit some but not everybody for sure.

 

[Djgr]

Wisbech is a big place in it's own right.
Ely and Cambridge are higher order centres. It is a very good fit although Kings Lynn would be drawing much traffic as their nearest place of a higher order.

I'm sorry. A population of 30,000 is never a big place!

 

[swanhill41]

£200 million for that line!....Can someone explain these fantasy costings come about please ?

 

[Bald Rick]

The 3 way Ely North Junction is going to be rebuilt anyway. it's current layout is a bottleneck

Sure about that?

 

[Bald Rick]

£200 million for that line!....Can someone explain these fantasy costings come about please ?

Basic new railways cost about £30m a mile. Some cost more. EWR Western section Phase 2 is about £40m/mile, and is a relevant compariotr as most of it was last used around the same time as the Wisbech line was. The Croxley Link was estimated at well over £100m/mile.

 

[trebor79]

The 3 way Ely North Junction is going to be rebuilt anyway. it's current layout is a bottleneck

Sure about that?

I'm not sure it is such a bottleneck. 2 tph each way on the line to Norwich, 5 trains every 2 hours each way on the Peterborough and max 3 tph each way on the Kings Lynn route. Add a couple of freights an hour. The single lead into the KL and Norwich line is adequate for the service level. I guess if there was an aspiration to increase Breckland line frequencies it might be different.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure it is such a bottleneck. 2 tph each way on the line to Norwich, 5 trains every 2 hours each way on the Peterborough and max 3 tph each way on the Kings Lynn route. Add a couple of freights an hour. The single lead into the KL and Norwich line is adequate for the service level. I guess if there was an aspiration to increase Breckland line frequencies it might be different.

It definitely is, particularly when a near half mile long freight rolls over it. However it isn’t a bottleneck all the time, just during peak freight periods. Of note is the traffic to/from Whitemoor which can be substantial and very peaky due to engineering requirements elsewhere on the network (essentially anywhere in Anglia).

 

[A0wen]

I don't see why you would class it as 'isolated' when you've got the potential for through running to e.g. Ely using tram-trains.
Edit: If it was a tram only system, I'd agree; the reason for tram-train is in this particular case *purely* to get around issues like the level crossing->bridge expenses while allowing through running onto the National Rail network, rather than to form part of a wider tram network as per the Sheffield tram trains.

Isolated in as much as it's not forming part of a wider network - and you've not explained how a town of 30,000 which is struggling to justify it's bus service to March will somehow make a rail connection viable - heavy rail or tram train.

Extending to Ely will create its own set of problems, starting with capacity at Ely North Junction, conflicting electrification systems - don't forget the Rotherham one was on a non-electrified line and only for a short distance on the national rail network, whereas you're proposing significant running on the national network to get into Ely and certainly if you wanted to extend to Cambridge.

The reality is there are much better ways to spend £ 200m which is about £ 6,500 for each resident of Wisbech - of which only 10-15% at best are likely to use or will benefit from the rail link.

 

[A0wen]

But it's still quite a considerably cheaper option than the heavy rail one recommend in the report and funnily enough wisbech did at one point actually have it's own light rail service

Yes - OK, a long time ago in very different circumstances on the light rail one.

And providing a subsidy to run a regular bus service connecting to trains at March would be vastly cheaper than any form of rail reinstatement as well as not impacting the current network which already has places where capacity is challenged i.e. Ely.

 

[Edders23]

Because if it stops at the A47, the station will be too far from the town centre and no-one will use it.

correct me if i'm wrong but is't there a housing estate and factory car parks occupying most of the track bed beyond the A47 so how much nearer could you get ?

 

[A0wen]

correct me if i'm wrong but is't there a housing estate and factory car parks occupying most of the track bed beyond the A47 so how much nearer could you get ?

Looking on Google Earth the trackbed appears to be clear to Weasenham Lane - after that it is clear but ends in the Nestle / Purina factory which used to be rail connected but has since removed the sidings and extended its site car park.

I think Weasenham Lane is probably the realistic limit of the line.

 

[duffield]

Isolated in as much as it's not forming part of a wider network - and you've not explained how a town of 30,000 which is struggling to justify it's bus service to March will somehow make a rail connection viable - heavy rail or tram train.

Extending to Ely will create its own set of problems, starting with capacity at Ely North Junction, conflicting electrification systems - don't forget the Rotherham one was on a non-electrified line and only for a short distance on the national rail network, whereas you're proposing significant running on the national network to get into Ely and certainly if you wanted to extend to Cambridge.

The reality is there are much better ways to spend £ 200m which is about £ 6,500 for each resident of Wisbech - of which only 10-15% at best are likely to use or will benefit from the rail link.

I've never said in any of my posts that a rail solution *is* justified, my point was that *if* a rail solution is decided on, it doesn't make sense to discard tram-train.

And as I've pointed out before, no electrification at all is required for the tram-train; the distance is well suited to a battery solution with a sub ten minute recharge at Wisbech.

And I've already stated that running to Ely might have to wait until the capacity issues are sorted.

 

[HSTEd]

And as I've pointed out before, no electrification at all is required for the tram-train; the distance is well suited to a battery solution with a sub ten minute recharge at Wisbech.

Or just a diesel interim tram-train.....

The cheapest (life-cycle) solution would probably be 750Vdc on the new section and then use batteries or diesel on the main line.

 

[trebor79]

Or just a diesel interim tram-train.....

The cheapest (life-cycle) solution would probably be 750Vdc on the new section and then use batteries or diesel on the main line.

What would be the point in that? Might as well just be diesel all the way.

You see some funny ideas on these forums.

 

[HSTEd]

What would be the point in that? Might as well just be diesel all the way.

Because we have acccess to the alignment before it becomes a live railway.

The cost of installing a 750Vdc system capable of supporting a tram train si going to be negligible compared to the cost of the scheme, both in schedule and monetary terms.

The section between March and Ely would require drastically more money given it would have to be double track electrification, on an active railway, to a main line 25kV standard.
(Experience demonstrates from the rotherham scheme that NetworK Rail is no longer willing to tolerate different standards of OLE over it's trackwork)

 

[Edders23]

Looking on Google Earth the trackbed appears to be clear to Weasenham Lane - after that it is clear but ends in the Nestle / Purina factory which used to be rail connected but has since removed the sidings and extended its site car park.

I think Weasenham Lane is probably the realistic limit of the line.

I'm sure I read a couple of years ago that that section of trackbed was incorporated in plans for a new mixed use light industry/ housing estate but don't know if that was just a proposal or if the land was sold to the developer

 

[Edders23]

Oh and most of the trackbed between Wisbech and Kings Lynn is long gone so not sure how you would put a tram line in going in that direction

Wisbech may only be a smallish town but it is a Port and has a significant hinterland with quite a few large villages but a very unsuccessful football team

 

[Robertj21a]

Yes - OK, a long time ago in very different circumstances on the light rail one.

And providing a subsidy to run a regular bus service connecting to trains at March would be vastly cheaper than any form of rail reinstatement as well as not impacting the current network which already has places where capacity is challenged i.e. Ely.

Absolutely correct. I can't believe that some people are attempting to waste so many millions on a line in such a relatively remote, low population, area. Crazy !

 

[A0wen]

Because we have acccess to the alignment before it becomes a live railway.

The cost of installing a 750Vdc system capable of supporting a tram train si going to be negligible compared to the cost of the scheme, both in schedule and monetary terms.

The section between March and Ely would require drastically more money given it would have to be double track electrification, on an active railway, to a main line 25kV standard.
(Experience demonstrates from the rotherham scheme that NetworK Rail is no longer willing to tolerate different standards of OLE over it's trackwork)

Yes - nothing like making an already marginal proposal that everyone's whinging about the cost of a little more expensive and therefore more marginal along the way. And a tramway from March - Wisbech is a marginal scheme.

Reality check time needed methinks.

And just for the record - Nottingham Express Transit construction cost for 8.7 miles was £ 200m - which is £ 309m in 2019 prices.

Yes, you'd have fewer stations and re-use of an existing track formation - but realistically £ 200m still sounds about right.

 

[HSTEd]

And just for the record - Nottingham Express Transit construction cost for 8.7 miles was £ 200m - which is £ 309m in 2019 prices.

Yes, you'd have fewer stations and re-use of an existing track formation - but realistically £ 200m still sounds about right.

And less than half the track?
Unless you are suggesting a single track in open terrain is really comparable to two tracks through a city with all the utility rearrangements and the like?

Also the tram train scheme was priced at £152m, not £200m.

EDIT:

Indeed the NET example leads me to believe the £152m is probably reasonable, but I would have to see the study to determine what exactly htey are buying with that money.

 

[trebor79]

What about regaining the freight flow from the pet food factory. That would help the business case.

 

[berwicksfinest]

What about regaining the freight flow from the pet food factory. That would help the business case.

In a word No