Wokingham - Zone 1-6 Travelcard via Frimley

[dmacw]

I need a travelcard from Wokingham, but need to stop at Frimley on the way there.

The plan was to go Wokingham - Ascot - Frimley - Ash Vale - London Waterloo

I didn't think the routing would allow it, however I have checked what maps can be used. It includes WW which is the route between Ascot and Ash Vale and London Waterloo.

Now, I presume a via Ascot/Guildford routing will do, as the journey will go through Ascot?

 

[bb21]

Now, I presume a via Ascot/Guildford routing will do, as the journey will go through Ascot?

Both the Route Ascot/Guildford and the Route Any Permitted ticket will allow you to travel via your proposed itinerary.

 

[Stigy]

I'm surprised that's valid at Frimley. I can kind of understand going to Guildford with FGW then up with SWT, but surely using it on an SWT service from Ascot to Ash Vale is off route?

 

[soil]

I'm surprised that's valid at Frimley. I can kind of understand going to Guildford with FGW then up with SWT, but surely using it on an SWT service from Ascot to Ash Vale is off route?

You should check the Routeing Guide.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf
Wokingham - London Group

Allows:
CS+WR Wokingham - Reading - Paddington
WV - Wokingham - Virginia Water - Weybridge - Waterloo
WW - Wokingham - Ascot - Ash Vale - Waterloo (or Wokingham-Ascot-Frimley, walk to Farnborough, Farnborough-Waterloo)
WX - Wokingham - Waterloo direct
(maps here http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf)

It's quite a long way round sure, but it's allowed.

Wokingham-Guildford-London, however, is NOT allowed.

 

[David Goddard]

You should check the Routeing Guide.

Wokingham-Guildford-London, however, is NOT allowed.

If this is not allowed, how come travelcards from Wokingham are printed Route Ascot/Guildford?

 

[soil]

If this is not allowed, how come travelcards from Wokingham are printed Route Ascot/Guildford?

Route Ascot/Guildford means you must pass through Ascot or Guildford as part of your route.

"If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description."


Of the four routes I listed:

CS+WR Wokingham - Reading - Paddington - does NOT pass through Ascot
WV - Wokingham - Virginia Water - Weybridge - Waterloo - DOES pass through Ascot
WW - Wokingham - Ascot - Ash Vale - Waterloo (or Wokingham-Ascot-Frimley, walk to Farnborough, Farnborough-Waterloo) - DOES pass through Ascot
WX - Wokingham - Waterloo direct - DOES pass through Ascot

So evidently the intent of the Ascot/Guildford routeing is to keep you on Southwest Trains, and off the FGW fast train friom Reading. Presumably SWT keep the money this way.

That you are not actually permitted to travel via Guildford is immaterial because you CAN travel via Ascot. It's certainly not part of a shortest route from Wokingham to London - it's a full 19 miles to Guildford from Wokingham.

 

[FenMan]

I don't agree; a route clearly marked on the ticket must trump the Routeing Guide.

Three lots of fares are available for Wokingham - London Terminals
(all prices are off peak day returns)

Via Staines: £16.40
Via Ascot or Guildford: £17.60
(which opens up the Frimley route, as questioned by the OP, and the Guildford route using FGW)
Any permitted: £19.00
(which adds the Reading route using FGW)

 

[34D]

Route Ascot/Guildford means you must pass through Ascot or Guildford as part of your route.

SNIP

That you are not actually permitted to travel via Guildford is immaterial because you CAN travel via Ascot. It's certainly not part of a shortest route from Wokingham to London - it's a full 19 miles to Guildford from Wokingham.

I find it hard to believe that travel via Guildford is not allowed.

Surely if there are no shortest/direct/mapped routes Wokingham-London that go through Guildford, we would default to permitted routes Wokingham-Guildford and permitted routes Guildford to London?

Discuss.

Are there any other examples of an A to B journey route X, where X isn't on any shortest/direct/mapped routes from A to B?

 

[FenMan]

Are there any other examples of an A to B journey route X, where X isn't on any shortest/direct/mapped routes from A to B?

It's a similar situation further down the North Downs Line at Blackwater (which is part of the Farnborough Group). The cheapest day return tickets to London are marked Via Ascot or Guildford.

Travelling via Guildford is not on a mapped route and a change is required, however the 3 mile rule is passed provided the distance to Waterloo is measured from Blackwater as opposed to the distance from Farnborough Main to Waterloo. I'm not sure if that is the correct interpretation however!

Crowthorne also has Via Ascot/Guildford tickets where a journey via Guildford is not direct, isn't a mapped route and doesn't pass the 3 -mile rule.

 

[LexyBoy]

Surely if there are no shortest/direct/mapped routes Wokingham-London that go through Guildford, we would default to permitted routes Wokingham-Guildford and permitted routes Guildford to London?

Discuss.

Are there any other examples of an A to B journey route X, where X isn't on any shortest/direct/mapped routes from A to B?

For a Via Foo ticket, where Foo isn't on any normally permitted route, then that ticket is valid on any permitted route Origin-Foo, and any permitted route Foo-Destination. This was confirmed by ATOC a while back.

There are quite a few other examples, e.g. Guildford-London has a Via Reading fare (annoyingly there's no Reading-London fare valid via Guildford, despite this being much more "reasonable" a route than vice-versa!).

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes indeed - the real question (which I don't recall coming up here before) seems to be whether this rule also applies when there is a choice of routes separated by a slash. My instinctive feeling is it does, i.e. that the "either/or" routes are both equally valid.

 

[LexyBoy]

Yes indeed - the real question (which I don't recall coming up here before) seems to be whether this rule also applies when there is a choice of routes separated by a slash. My instinctive feeling is it does, i.e. that the "either/or" routes are both equally valid.

I agree - I think it's there instead of "Not Reading" for whatever reason.

I don't think it could be justified to describe a ticket's routeing as "via Ascot or Guildford" if it's not permitted to travel via Guildford. If there are no shortest routes, mapped routes or direct trains via Guildford then surely the route must be determined as for any other route where the Via station isn't on a Permitted Route.

 

[Bill Badger]

Notwithstanding the 'Ascot/', only in the world of railway ticketing, could we have a debate as to whether a ticket that says 'via Guildford' is valid via Guildford!!

 

[Stigy]

Just seems strange really, that you could take a train that takes an hour to get from Ascot to Guildford. Obviously a loophole, as the ticket can't really say "via Guildford but not on Guildford services from Ascot" can it?!

 

[David Goddard]

So if I buy a Travelcard from Wokingham marked either "Ascot/Guildford" or "Any Permitted", can I or can't I take the North Downs line to Guildford then join a Pompey fast to London? The fastest journey via this route is only one minute longer than the direct train via Staines.
I think that even the most hardened of RPIs would have difficulty saying that the former is not valid when it clearly has "Guildford" marked on it.

Thinking about this further, The Guildford to Reading is the tail end of the former SECR network, and so this could be a legacy routing that survives.
I have just entered a journey from Wokingham to Sydenham, specified "via Gomshall" and lo and behold a Travelcard (both "Ascot/Guildford" and "Any Permitted" are shown) is returned as valid for this journey.
Stations North of Sydenham returned "No Tickets are available", however as you hit the TCD zone at Coulsdon South then the TCD that can take you anywhere from there!

 

[soil]

Just seems strange really, that you could take a train that takes an hour to get from Ascot to Guildford. Obviously a loophole, as the ticket can't really say "via Guildford but not on Guildford services from Ascot" can it?!

?

I think they would rather you take that train.

It is a SWT service.

The Wokingham-Ascot-Guildford route is all on SWT

If you take the direct Guildford train from Wokingham you go on FGW.

The Ascot-Guildford line is like two lines in one:

Guildford-Aldershot, which takes a very reasonable 17 minutes, calling at Wanborough and Ash.

It then turns around at Aldershot (which takes 20 minutes) and serves as an Aldershot-Ascot service, calling at Ash Vale, Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot, 30 minutes to end.

Passengers from Camberley and Frimley to London are connected to the fast London line via Woking at Ash Vale, local connections for e.g. shopping at Camberley can be made from e.g. Frimley.

From Ash Vale to Guildford you would use North Camp, which is only just up the road, so it's only the Ascot to Frimley stretch that suffer an excessively slow connection to Guildford (still much better than taking the local buses however!!!), and it's probably only Frimley and Camberley that have much of a connection with Guildford anyway.

It's going to be mainly used for local journeys, but I doubt they'd mind masochists using it for end-to-end.

 

[yorkie]

I don't agree; a route clearly marked on the ticket must trump the Routeing Guide.

If the ticket specifies a route that is a permitted route, then it restricts you to permitted routes passing through that station (or stations).

Occasionally, tickets will be routed via a particular station that is not on a permitted route for the through journey.

In this case, permitted routes are defined as from the origin to the via point, and from via point to the destination. This was confirmed by ATOC when a customer enquired about a Sheffield to Blackburn ticket routed via Burnley.

The Routeing Guide lists the permitted routes for a particular flow. The actual routes that the customer can use, is sometimes limited by the route shown on the ticket, which may stipulate that the journey must go via a particular location. In some cases however, the opposite applies and the particular “via” location is outside the range of the usual permitted routes and travel via that location would not normally have been permitted. But because a flow specifically routed via that location has been priced by the Train Company , travel is permitted via that location. It appears that this is the case for Sheffield – Blackburn, via Burnley.

In this instance you are correct and you should look up the permitted routes for Sheffield-Burnley and Burnley-Blackburn.

 

[soil]

This is a slightly more complicated case, in that if a ticket is routed 'via Burnley' but 'via Burnley' is not a permitted route, then clearly it is necessary either to go off the permitted routes, or to fail to comply with the restriction on the ticket.

In this case however the statement

'Via Guildford or via Ascot'

creates no such compunction to violate the Rules, because there are several permitted routes that go via Ascot, so complaining that you cannot travel via Guildford is rather less of an inconvenience than a Sheffield-Blackburn ticket that doesn't permit any travel at all!

Clearly the defence of necessity would apply in the 'via Burnley' case, but it does not apply here, because you CAN use a Wokingham - London 'via Ascot/Guildford' ticket and stick to permitted routes, there is no need to go off permitted routes just because you would prefer to comply with the 'Via Guildford' option instead of the perfectly useable 'Via Ascot' route.