Woman asked to give up seat on train for child.

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Neil Polo, 10 Jun 2019.

  1. steve1981

    steve1981 Member

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    Certainly if you have I.d tag on or any uniform but if you in civys I guess most would stay quiet and enjoy the seat, I would get up regardless until I'm to old and need it myself lol
     
  2. VT 390

    VT 390 Member

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    I have been on a fairly busy service where a member of staff has been taking up a pair of seats. There was about 4 or 5 seat other seats available but I would have preferred the position of the seat the member of staff was sitting in as the only, I just sat in another available seat though.
    Should members of staff take up seats in this type of case?
     
  3. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Reading through this thread one can understand why social anxiety is on the rise these days, no matter what anyone does someone will be along to tell you that's not the right way to do it. Someone, somewhere is one day going to get very wealthy writing the rule book on social interactions. I've had it in my head for some time about having a light hearted blog about commuting, I may take this further! :D

    For me respect is earned, it comes from being brought up by your parent & peers to understand the way that we humans interact, about what it acceptable & what is not. You treat children kindly wherever possible, and I say possible because children need boundaries & rules setting, it is in the very nature of not just us but of all mammals & other animals that form social groups, and those rules and boundaries need to be enforced. But children have to earn the respect of their peers in adult world the same way adults need to earn respect within new social or work groups. I have seen too often these days younger people coming into my area of work, full of demands & expectations & becoming agitated when they don't automatically get what they thought they deserved. This is a failure of the parents & peers to establish a hierarchy of respect, and too much pandering to their demands as children. One such example is a child playing up on a train, and the parent demanding others to move, or not to occupy seats that the child wants.
     
  4. Comstock

    Comstock Member

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    I've read this through, and one issue hasn't been raised. Why, in one of the richest countries on earth, in 2019, are people routinely having to stand on public transport?

    Yes, I admit I'm being idealistic here. It would be very hard, probably impossible to achieve 100% seat availability in the London rush hour. But we don't even seem to be trying. The new Crossrail trains seem to have been built on the expectation that a lot of people will have to stand. Given the vast cost of the project, I'm not sure that's okay.

    Like I say, idealistic, and for the record I always stand on both tubes and short national rail journeys unless the train is less than about 75% full.
     
  5. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Quite often, because people can’t see beyond piling in though the first door they come across. Whilst I know this isn’t universal, it’s normally possible to plan things to maximise the chance of getting a seat.

    The most arrogant ones seem to be the weekend lot, that breed who don’t use the train other than to make an occasional journey to the nearest big city as part of a family day out. It’s quite common to see them turn up at a terminus at 1700, board the train at the last minute through the first available door, exclaim horror that all the seats are taken (or all the facing bays is another favourite), and then expect everyone else to accommodate.
     
  6. steve1981

    steve1981 Member

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    Staff obviously receive free travel or discounted but we are told we should give our seats if there are no others available, I wouldn't move if other seats are available.
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Why is it a problem that people have to stand for short journeys? They would be standing if they had walked.

    I would agree that there should not need to be any standing on InterCity type services.
     
  8. Comstock

    Comstock Member

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    Personally, in middle age, I can still walk as far as I ever could, but find standing tiring. Obviously if it is one stop or two on the tube, it's fine, but even for the ten minute journey from Derby to Burton, which I do regularly, I'm finding my legs start to ache by the other end, even though I could walk for an hour or more with no issues.

    But that's just me.
     
  9. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

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    Why is it not respectful? That attitude always confuses the hell out of me
     
  10. RLBH

    RLBH Member

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    The idea that a man should give up his seat for a woman can be (and probably should be) interpreted as suggesting that a woman is less capable of standing than a man. That's certainly the justification for offering a seat to the elderly, disabled or pregnant. Presuming that an able-bodied woman falls into the same category is hardly compatible with gender equality.

    One can have all sorts of fun with these sorts of 'rules': should a pregnant woman give up her seat for an elderly man? Or vice versa? What about transgender people? If it's because of presumed physical inferiority, should a female professional athlete have to surrender her seat to a weakly-built, unfit young man?

    It's impossible to draw up a consistent hierarchy of seat-deservedness, because there are so many different variables.
     
  11. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

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    That interpretation is wholly incorrect and one I fear that has been ground out of the extreme feminists view that everything men do is wrong, and everything women do that does not fit their feminist agenda is also wrong. If I decide to give up my seat to a woman, man, disabled or elderly person etc..., then I should be able to do that without the fear of some ridiculous notion that I am being prejudiced towards the person who I offer the seat to
     
  12. SWT_USER

    SWT_USER Member

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    Your last paragraph made me smile, in my experience half term is the worst for this. Mummy boarding a peak train out of Waterloo with Hugo and Jemima at the last minute and loudly exclaiming 'gosh it's busy, I hope we find seats' or some such.
     
  13. RLBH

    RLBH Member

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    You've got the right to offer your seat to whoever you like, and feel whatever you want about it. They have the right to accept, or not, as they see fit, and interpret your offer however they want.

    So why would you offer your seat to an able-bodied middle-aged woman? Would you offer your seat to an able-bodied middle-aged man under the same circumstances? Or expect him to give his up for her? Why?

    In the uncontroversial cases where we expect one passenger to give up a seat for another, it's because there's some limitation to their ability to stand. Children giving way to adults, or men to women, doesn't have that anchoring. There isn't any really clear reason why Passenger A should defer to Passenger B - and it is deference, rather than respect, at work - when neither knows anything about the other.
     
  14. An_Engineer

    An_Engineer Member

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    Frankly, coming from a London perspective, if a man is giving up his seat for a woman just because she is a woman it is normally seen as quite creepy (even if not intended that way). Because people are so used to men and women being equal in the seating stakes giving up a seat is like doing the woman someone a favour, and for understandable reasons the implied favour can be uncomfortable/distressing to the woman. Nearly all the women I know have come across situations where a man thinks that being kind to a woman deserves something back like a bit of conversation, maybe a phone number, maybe a picture etc. So do not think it's looked down upon just because women want to be seen as equals.


    For many areas this is a good question and certainly there are a lot of areas where the train provision could be improved greatly (where increasing train length is a fairly cost effective way of increasing provision.)

    However London is a different beast. There are many public transport links in London where it is physically impossible to provide enough provision to allow everyone to sit. Even in non peak periods, with trains running every 2mins, it is common to see large numbers of standing passengers on many of the central tube lines. And then in peak, it isn't whether you get a seat or not, it's whether you manage to fit on the 2nd train to arrive at the platform or the 3rd. London is transport is simply at such high capacity that it is preferred to get more people on a train than to leave some waiting just so that a relatively small subset are lucky enough to get those extra seats.
     
  15. Facing Back

    Facing Back Member

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    I asked a few women in our London and Manchester office - I was curious about this. I'm in my early 50s and was brought up to offer my seat to a woman - my grandpa giving me a good clip when I wasn't respectful enough and as a miner he had a mean clip.

    The women in the north would all be pleased to be asked but most would politely decline, although a couple of my age would accept if a seat was offered by a much younger man. The younger ones would assume a middle aged man was being a gentleman and a younger one was hitting on her but all would politely decline and not find it creepy

    The women in London of my age were similar, none would find it creepy if I offered and most would decline unless they were especially tired or footsore. The younger women were surprised it was a thing and wouldn't expect it.

    All were amused that I read a train forum though so I guess that's one thing.

    I will go on offering my seat, I've been doing it for far too long to break the habit easily. If I find that I am causing offence I might make an effort to stop.

    I most certainly will not respond to rudeness though. I have climbed over people to get to a window seat before - I probably shouldn't but thats just rude - and I'm happy to ask people to move their bags. I'm sure its just me but bags on seats seem to be more of an issue in the north than the south - apart from airport routes.

    I won't offer my seat to a child as a matter of course - but a tired mum and a tired young chlld both needing a rest - then I'm happy to normally. If they demand then they get to stand though.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Same here. Anyone demanding anything gets their precise legal entitlement but nothing more. If you ask nicely, on the other hand, this can pay dividends.

    That is, if demanded rudely, a priority seat will be given up for the person requiring it only and NOT their carer (and I'll take my time packing my stuff up), and a regular seat will NOT be given up at all, unless it seems obvious (and it normally is if this is the case) that the person's rudeness is likely to be due to their disability.

    On the other hand if I get "Excuse me, please, do you mind if we sit here, I can't stand for very long", most likely I'll sort my stuff and shift quickly including for a carer or companion.

    As mentioned I've given up a paid exit row seat on a plane for a regular one before to solve a 3-way swap, simply because people were reasonable and polite about things and it saved the crew a headache. (I have however in similar circumstances politely declined to swap to a middle seat because given the size of me this would be unfair on those either side).
     
  17. Facing Back

    Facing Back Member

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    Last time I volunteered to move on a plane for a family - unasked by them - the crew upgraded me once the flight was in the air. It wasn't necessary but it was appreciated.

    Yes - good point on the priority seats - I'll always move. I've been lucky I guess, having never had a rude request. its always been very apologetic and I'm happy to move for a carer in this case too. A number of years back I was engrossed with something - work or a book and didn't notice somebody who clearly needed the eat but was far too polite to ask. I felt absolutely awful when I finally saw them so I'm a bit more observant these days.
     
  18. baz962

    baz962 Established Member

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    That's more to do with every one wanting to get on the first train, even with one behind, no patience.
     
  19. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    A train in the platform is worth 10 on the departure board. Particularly those who remember the chronic unreliability of much of the Tube in the 1980s and early 1990s (for such an old network it's much, much better now).
     
  20. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    Which, (not meaning to be rude) is completely irrelevent in the present.
     
  21. al78

    al78 Established Member

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    It should be, but it takes an awful long time for traditions and primitive instincts to adapt to changing times. Good luck with trying to change attitudes which have been around for thousands of years.
     
  22. al78

    al78 Established Member

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    Exactly, where is the logic?
     
  23. Mutant Lemming

    Mutant Lemming Established Member

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    Wouldn't arranging large scale infrastructure projects to cope with increased passenger usage be difficult to implement when the population increases quite drastically over a relatively short space of time?
     
  24. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Ah yes, the joy of peak time travel during the school holidays. If I had a pound for every time I saw these good folk wander through to the front carriages of the afternoon peak Leeds-Skipton services, and act with a mixture of surprise & horror that they haven't got a entire carriage to themselves.... :D
     
  25. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

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    You're saying we should keep with tradition but there's an endless trickle of newspaper articles saying that we should end the BST/GMT changes, stop churches getting council tax money, constantly commercialise every holiday we can... seems like society is getting rid of tradition all by itself, and I'm certainly not trying to change anything or anyone. Not sure what through trail has led you to that.

    "Women and children first" hasn't been around for thousands of years, maybe a hundred or so at best.
    I'd suggest men were the most important in certain cultures thousands of years ago (Egyption for example), and certainly it was men first in King Henry the Fat One's time!

    But this thread isn't about saving women and children, it's whether a woman should be asked to give up a seat on a train for a child.
    There's no "trying to change attitudes which have been around for thousands of years" in that.
    Not really too sure what I said made you respond in the way you did in post 77 in the context of this thread.

    I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make.
     
  26. trainophile

    trainophile Established Member

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    You only have to look at the crowds on the platform on that one. Scary o_O .
     
  27. Spurs

    Spurs Member

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    If someone asks for a seat - ideally politely, of course - I'd always give it to them. You never know if there's a circumstance such as an invisible disability that makes said person less able to stand, and they shouldn't have to explain at length every time they travel. I do think it might be an idea to issue them with badges similar to the "Baby on Board" ones for pregnant women.
     
  28. simonw

    simonw Member

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    You can get please let me have your seat badges from TfL and do not have to explain why you need it.
     
  29. 172006

    172006 Member

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    The Victoria line carriage I was in on Sunday morning before 7 had more passenger than seats. Why?
     
  30. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    If there are other other available seats then no. In the same way you wouldn't get up if there were other available seats just because I preferred the one you're sat in.
     

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