Word of warning

Discussion in 'Photography Advice & Discussion' started by mawallace, 17 Jul 2009.

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  1. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    :lol:

    it could also be an admission that they have not got the right to use this logo...

    [​IMG]

    (on this bizarre theme, and changing the topic slightly, I wonder if Death has his own logo for Olde English Campaign?)

    Anyway back on topic..!
    2 possibilities I can think of...

    1) the first sign is now redundant (is it enforceable in that condition?) and the 2nd sign applies, or
    2) the sign is aimed at people who ignored the first sign.
     
  2. Stacey

    Stacey Member

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    Isn't this all just gibber and piffle? - Who cares what the specific meaning of the signs are? The original question was whether it was right or wrong that he got a penalty. You don't need 8 pages to decide on that, and its neither here or there anyway, BTP will do what they will do. Don't pass the sign cos they [the officious type BTP] are just waiting for an excuse to have a go to flex their muscle. You could appeal but it's probably more trouble than it's worth.
     
  3. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Is it any wonder BTP think an offence was committed when it seems that some people working in the railways think so too?

    I agree that nine pages seems a bit much though!
     
  4. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    I'm amazed that so many of my fellow railway employees are unable to understand the written word!!!!

    I've got another wide question to ask - given that opinion is so divided among the respondents to the thread as to the meaning of the sign, is it a fair point to argue that it is impossible for BTP to issue a ticket based on it's perceived ambiguity?
     
  5. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    Well, to answer all your questions I should just inform you that I'm still waiting a response from Nitwit Rail to the question I posed to them yesterday. As promised, I will post their response as soon as I get it. However, it should help to clear up the questions raised about the legal status of these signs and also their enforceability.

    I would also like to say that I'm very disappointed that some folk here are taking this topic very personally. I know that I may have been guilty of that earlier in the thread for which I apologise, but I would have liked to think that we can have a grown-up discussion about this without the slurs.

    To assuage Ferrit's obvious concerns about me, I can assure you all that I have no problems whatsoever with the written word. I am just not comfortable with simply ignoring a clear and unambiguous pictogram, unlike one or two other folk, nor do I believe that adding a layer of meaning that is not inferred in the pictogram is necessarily correct.

    However, I would just like to pick up on a couple of points. The first is that pictogram in question is not there to identify who the sign applies to but the action or behaviour that could put a person at risk in an environment like the railway.

    The second is that there is an agreed standard for the size, colour and format of warning signs at locations required to display such warnings specified in the Health & Safety at Work Act; specifically The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996. I've not read it because Acts of Parliament are enormously dull, but anyone facing a long and boring evening who is looking for something to help pass the time can find the full text starting here.

    O L Leigh
     
    Last edited: 21 Jul 2009
  6. martyn29

    martyn29 Member

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    Something simialr happened at York when 40145 was there a few weeks ago, things gor quite heated then, I dont know if anyone was there from this forum, but alot of enthusiasts were standing near the signal which is past one of those signs...
     
  7. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    He says after failing to spell my user name correctly!!!:) Sorry fella, couldn't resist that one!!!:)

    In fairness, the heckle about reading the written word was somewhat tongue in cheek!!!

    Tbh, I am a bit bored of bashing my head against a brick wall trying to get you to understand that if you weren't allowed to pass this point then it would bloody well say so but then it's your perogative not to understand!
     
  8. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Got a photo tonight! Now I wonder if BTP will stand on the steps to do everyone crossing to exit the station?!

    steps.jpg

    Now on roads, there needs to be a traffic order to place signs - a long winded (often far too long winded) process that needs to pass all sorts of approvals. When it comes to the railway, it seems to be a random process, based on the nearest post available at the time.

    Quite aside from the meaning of the signs, that also begs the other question; are these signs actually enforceable anyway?
     
  9. ungreat

    ungreat Member

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    What this is all about,having read it all,is spotters thinking they have unlimited access to all rail areas..you don't.And then arguing the toss about signs.You know you dont go on the track,you know you dont cross the yellow lines,yet still you push it.The BTP were wrong to issue a fine for basically nothing when a telling off was enough,and looking at the pic,even that was too much.I am staff,but also sympathetic to enthusiasts,but not when it comes to trespass,which as I see it,the OP wasnt.


    And Jonmorris....please reel it in...commuters are only concerned about one thing..THEMSELVES and noone else.They dont care about their fellow commuters..most of them cant get to the station on time and miss their train,end up getting the next one and tell work "my train was late"...I see it every day,the last minute ones chucking their bags on the ground as the train leaves.And whats with the all get on/off at one door?Dont commuters realise how much that delays trains?

    I could go on for hours,but await the flaying now with glee!:lol:
     
  10. Phoenix

    Phoenix Established Member

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    Alright there the OP clearly understands the situation and has showed remorse no need to show the guy up he definatly is a lot more considerate to the rules than A few people out there.

    But relating to what you said I aggree in part that yes we should accept that we will not be allowed everywhere and need to stop complaining as much.
    But at the same time staff need to remember that sometimes were not just "SPOTTERS" but paying customers or people actually carrying out photography for something more than just nedding purposes for example a few of us send photographs in to various magazines to get printed and what not.

    But generally the serious photographers are the smart ones when it comes to stations we stay well back if possible.
    But honestly these days I get quite fed up with the rudeness of staff in part so I'm just as rude and questioning back "do onto others as you would have them do onto you" but if a staff member wants to talk and asks like I am a human being then im happy to oblige and will even start a nice quick conversation.

    So basically okay some of us go to parts of stations where we are not wanted but the nasty staff attitude isn't wanted either so both parties need to wrangle they strays back in!
     
  11. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    Oops. So I did. Sorry about that. :oops:

    I'm sorry about that too but, just as you believe I am wrong so I believe you are wrong. I still maintain that these signs say precisely that in the form of a clear and unambiguous pictogram.

    However, I have been very careful not to suggest that going beyond these signs constitutes trespass as I am not qualified to make that judgement. But then equally, neither is anyone else on this forum qualified to say that it isn't.

    O L Leigh
     
  12. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I sense real hatred against spotters and commuters there!!

    Still, you agree that BTP were wrong - which is, after all, the point of this thread!

    And what about my well placed sign photo above? No comments (from anyone - not specifically you!) on how that is supposed to work.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2009
  13. ungreat

    ungreat Member

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    No hatred at all,especially of enthusiasts,but definately frustration with commuters!

    I would sooner have a train full of enthusiasts any day...they behave!

    The sign relates to the fenced off ramp end,which as you probably know was used a lot by passengers that were too idle to use the bridge.Although I do agree that its pretty stupidly placed,and really ought to be on the fence itself.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I said I didnt think the OP was trespassing.......
     
  14. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    I know what it relates to, but in that position it makes no sense at all. If you can't pass, you can't exit the station!

    And they have now put signs up on the fence (guess someone with a brain told them) but they still haven't taken the one down from the lamp post!! There are obviously no proper procedures in place for this sort of thing on the railway. Give someone a sign and let them find somewhere to stick it!
     
  15. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Saw this at Rugeley today. It's at the eastern end of the down platform but you have to pass that sign on the left hand side to board the rear carriages of northbound 350s on the WCML. Of course, that's not a problem because passing that sign is not trespass so therefore no law is being broken. Just like at Man Vic....:lol:
     

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  16. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Well, according to some people on here - you can't pass the prohibition symbol - so the rest of the platform is out of bounds.

    And you can't leave the platform 2/3 island at Hatfield - and must be flown out or board the next train that comes in. :)

    (Besides this petty joking around; I want to know what the OP is going to do - and if they are going to fight the case)
     
  17. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    Indeed - it's been fun (well...ish!) but I'd quite like to know if the OP is fighting it as several of us believe he should....
     
  18. johngie

    johngie New Member

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    I've only just joined this forum (where's it been all my life :) but I would like to praise the staff at York just under a year ago whilst a Pathfinder "overnight" tour to Scotland was stopped their for an hour or so. Considering the number of photographers all over the station I personally found them good humoured and friendly although one of them did confess that he didn't know what we saw in it!
     
  19. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    i'm at Eaglescliffe and I have just walked past a 'do not cross the line' sign am i, and the other GC pax trespassing and was the platform extention just done to catch us out?

    No-one has crossed the line (assuming we are talking railway lines and not imaginary lines)!
     
  20. Ferret

    Ferret Established Member

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    :lol: Of course, despite having been proved wrong time and time again I'm sure those that like to look for non-existant hidden meanings will be quick to tell you that you should all be receiving £50 on the spot fines for your 'sins'...:lol:
     
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