Worst Decision by a TOC?

[HSTEd]

I don't think it's the Mk1 bodyshell rather than chassis that fell short in terms of safety.

I agree the Classic concept was a guddon.

It was indeed a good idea, and as I think you said, the bodyshell was the issue with regards the crash standards and that was being fixed by the new one.

Apparently it was 4BIGs, 4CIGs, 4CEP, 4VEP.......
194 4VEP sets
135 4CEP sets
138 4CIG sets
28 4BIG sets....

495 sets, setting aside 4 for preservation leaves 491 4-carriage sets.

That would mean we would probably just getting into the great Southern Region train ordering programme now if this had been pursued.

Which would mean we might have sanity with regards the numbers of ordered classes.

Also... when did the majority of the Mark 1 coaches go to the scrapyard..... because is there any reason you could not have done the same thing to all the AC Multiple units and the hauled Mark 1s?

 

[WL113]

LM cutting the Walsall-Wellington service back to Walsall-Wolves only, and then axing it apart from one train a day.. Yes a couple of intermediate stations should have been reopened, but the service was superb.

 

[Eagle]

The one that astonishes me is the 342, which was supposed to operate on the CTRL alongside Eurostars! Imagine coming in from Paris, and being held up by a little Networker beetling along, carrying commuters from Margate. hock:

There's also the 341, intended for Crossrail, the specs for which have remained unchanged in the ITT for Crossrail 2018 stock (although the number has since been changed to 345).
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LM cutting the Walsall-Wellington service back to Walsall-Wolves only...

I think the premise there was to allow LM's Birmingham to Shrewsbury stopper to become hourly (given a choice between a service to Birmingham and a service to Walsall, I know which is ultimately the more popular choice).

Of course once they'd done that passenger numbers fell so low that the Walsall to Wolves line became unviable—also it'd free up some units to extend some LM Worcester services to Gloucester to fill in the gaps in FGW's timetable (and that turned out to be completely unviable too).

The single remaining parliamentary service from Walsall to Wolves is more of a positioning move than anything else.

 

[Schnellzug]

It was indeed a good idea, and as I think you said, the bodyshell was the issue with regards the crash standards and that was being fixed by the new one.

Apparently it was 4BIGs, 4CIGs, 4CEP, 4VEP.......
194 4VEP sets
135 4CEP sets
138 4CIG sets
28 4BIG sets....

495 sets, setting aside 4 for preservation leaves 491 4-carriage sets.

That would mean we would probably just getting into the great Southern Region train ordering programme now if this had been pursued.

Which would mean we might have sanity with regards the numbers of ordered classes.

Also... when did the majority of the Mark 1 coaches go to the scrapyard..... because is there any reason you could not have done the same thing to all the AC Multiple units and the hauled Mark 1s?

That, though, would have been no more of an improvement for the Passenger than all new stock, though, would it ....

 

[Dunderhead]

I'll just add one. Taking 5-WESes off Waterloo-Weymouth, thus replacing a genuine inter-city unit with glorified suburban stock that is far less comfortable. Thanks a lot!

I never travelled on an NSE/SWT 442, but I find the 444s a pleasure to ride; I wish I could go back in time to see for myself why the 444s are viewed with disdain by those who remember their predecessor!

 

[SprinterMan]

I'll just add one. Taking 5-WESes off Waterloo-Weymouth, thus replacing a genuine inter-city unit with glorified suburban stock that is far less comfortable. Thanks a lot!

Really? I find 444s much better tbh. Yes, the seats are slightly harder but there is more legroom, much nicer internal ambience, wider doors, less annoying noises and bigger windows. I can see why people would be miffed if 450s replaced 442s, but 444s are the better train in my opinion.

Adam :P

 

[Dunderhead]

Really? I find 444s much better tbh. Yes, the seats are slightly harder but there is more legroom, much nicer internal ambience, wider doors, less annoying noises and bigger windows. I can see why people would be miffed if 450s replaced 442s, but 444s are the better train in my opinion.

Adam :P

The 'internal ambience' and the big windows really do it for me. The lighting and choice of interior colours on the 444s make the coaches feel bright, airy and roomy; the 450s have a more blue interior which I find to be colder and more claustrophobic, though maybe I'm just insane.

 

[SprinterMan]

The 'internal ambience' and the big windows really do it for me. The lighting and choice of interior colours on the 444s make the coaches feel bright, airy and roomy; the 450s have a more blue interior which I find to be colder and more claustrophobic, though maybe I'm just insane.

I agree completely with this, the 450s seem alot darker inside than the 444s. :P

 

[Schnellzug]

Really? I find 444s much better tbh. Yes, the seats are slightly harder but there is more legroom, much nicer internal ambience, wider doors, less annoying noises and bigger windows. I can see why people would be miffed if 450s replaced 442s, but 444s are the better train in my opinion.

Adam :P

Opinions, of course, differ, but for what it's worth where 444s are decidedly inferior, I think, is ride quality (it still isn't good enough on 444s, particularly on Jointed track, of which there's plenty on the way to weymouth), and the toilets are too few and (apart from the Disabled one*), far too small. The internal doors with their not-very-sensitive touch sensitive buttons are rather fiddly as well. Otherwise, yes, they're spacious and the windows are nice and deep, so you get a good view, and the Seats, while they are rather firm, are reasonably well shaped, I think.

* and the doors of those seem to be getting rather unreliable lately; it seems to be quite common to see it 'out of order'.

 

[LE Greys]

I never travelled on an NSE/SWT 442, but I find the 444s a pleasure to ride; I wish I could go back in time to see for myself why the 444s are viewed with disdain by those who remember their predecessor!

The nearest comparison with the 442s is probably the Virgin MkIIIs, which is basically what a 442 started out as, the major differences with the trailers being T4 bogies and swing-plug doors (and shoes). The motorcoaches had a decent guard's compartment for luggage, nice big buffets and the 'cuddy' that was once the smoking section (enough seats for a dozen or so people surrounding a table). First class was semi-open, making this the last British stock built with compartments. The interior was bright and cheerful, NSE style hardly altered IIRC. It might have been the more reserved Intercity style, but Chris Green insisted on them being NSE stock inside and out. Pity, they might have suited IC Swallow. Big luggage racks and fairly comfy seats made up a very nice package. They also had old 4-REP motors that started out with a brief growl, then a hum, then a drone, then a whine and eventually a wild howl at full speed. When I was at Poole College, I used to be able to hear them climbing the bank towards Parkstone, wonderful noise. I've always regretted not getting more pictures.

All gone now. I'm going to find an excuse to go to Brighton soon to relive it all, and this time I'm taking a camera.

 

[Drsatan]

Opinions, of course, differ, but for what it's worth where 444s are decidedly inferior, I think, is ride quality (it still isn't good enough on 444s, particularly on Jointed track, of which there's plenty on the way to weymouth), and the toilets are too few and (apart from the Disabled one*), far too small. The internal doors with their not-very-sensitive touch sensitive buttons are rather fiddly as well. Otherwise, yes, they're spacious and the windows are nice and deep, so you get a good view, and the Seats, while they are rather firm, are reasonably well shaped, I think.

* and the doors of those seem to be getting rather unreliable lately; it seems to be quite common to see it 'out of order'.

I'd agree. The ride quality of the 442s is considerably better than the 444s, the seats are more comfortable, the bike space in the guard's van is bigger, and until they were transferred to Southern for use on Gatwick Express services, had a buffet in the centre coach. The main issue is that due to all of the 30 458s being reintroduced into service in 2007, enough 450s were released to allow for 444s in use on the Portsmouth Direct line to be transferred to Weymouth services, meaning that the 442s could be withdrawn. Now we have the situation whereby 450s are used on services to Portsmouth Harbour, which has proven unpopular among a lot of commuters.

Ideally, Southern would have been told to order additional Electrostars if it wanted to extend the Gatwick Express services.

 

[LE Greys]

Ideally, Southern would have been told to order additional Electrostars if it wanted to extend the Gatwick Express services.

Or if we really had to have 444s, SWT could have ordered an extra batch and got rid of the 458s. I have a feeling that's what NSE would have done, although I can't see them getting rid of the 442s without a main-line-based replacement. Mind you, they traded in 309s for 321s.

 

[TEW]

The reason SWT went for 444s on the Weymouth line rather than 442s was the cheap cost of leasing the 458s, they probably wouldn't have got as good a deal on more 444s.

 

[HSTEd]

That, though, would have been no more of an improvement for the Passenger than all new stock, though, would it ....

lower ticket prices and or more units purchased?

instead of 1 for 1 replacement of the Mark 1 stock you get roughly 1.75 for 1. (One refurbished unit and three quarters of a new one).

 

[317666]

Virgin losing the XC franchise to Arriva. At least Virgin could actually maintain the trains to a decent standard, look at a XC 221 compared to a Virgin one...

On the subject of XC, I think that Virgin should have ordered some more Voyagers so that Operation Princess didn't have to result in the cutting of so many services.

 

[Failed Unit]

Virgin losing the XC franchise to Arriva. At least Virgin could actually maintain the trains to a decent standard, look at a XC 221 compared to a Virgin one...

On the subject of XC, I think that Virgin should have ordered some more Voyagers so that Operation Princess didn't have to result in the cutting of so many services.

? - XC has the best PPm on any DEMU in the Uk. I know they don't tilt but the don't break as much as Virgins.

 

[Dunderhead]

The nearest comparison with the 442s is probably the Virgin MkIIIs, which is basically what a 442 started out as, the major differences with the trailers being T4 bogies and swing-plug doors (and shoes). The motorcoaches had a decent guard's compartment for luggage, nice big buffets and the 'cuddy' that was once the smoking section (enough seats for a dozen or so people surrounding a table). First class was semi-open, making this the last British stock built with compartments. The interior was bright and cheerful, NSE style hardly altered IIRC. It might have been the more reserved Intercity style, but Chris Green insisted on them being NSE stock inside and out. Pity, they might have suited IC Swallow. Big luggage racks and fairly comfy seats made up a very nice package. They also had old 4-REP motors that started out with a brief growl, then a hum, then a drone, then a whine and eventually a wild howl at full speed. When I was at Poole College, I used to be able to hear them climbing the bank towards Parkstone, wonderful noise. I've always regretted not getting more pictures.

These units do sound very generous in their accommodation. Was there perhaps a view that they were not entirely efficient in terms of capacity for that reason?

Or if we really had to have 444s, SWT could have ordered an extra batch and got rid of the 458s. I have a feeling that's what NSE would have done, although I can't see them getting rid of the 442s without a main-line-based replacement. Mind you, they traded in 309s for 321s.

Could I ask what it is that makes 444s more suburban stock than mainline?

I'd agree. The ride quality of the 442s is considerably better than the 444s, the seats are more comfortable, the bike space in the guard's van is bigger, and until they were transferred to Southern for use on Gatwick Express services, had a buffet in the centre coach. The main issue is that due to all of the 30 458s being reintroduced into service in 2007, enough 450s were released to allow for 444s in use on the Portsmouth Direct line to be transferred to Weymouth services, meaning that the 442s could be withdrawn. Now we have the situation whereby 450s are used on services to Portsmouth Harbour, which has proven unpopular among a lot of commuters.

I do feel sorry for those living in Portsmouth who find themselves regularly riding 450s into London. I have noticed that Portsmouth trains provide 3 out of 4 of Guildford's fast trains into London per hour; is there any truth to the notion that a reasonable number of 450 diagrams are needed on this route in order to provide sufficient capacity for, and minimal dwell times at, Guildford?

The reason SWT went for 444s on the Weymouth line rather than 442s was the cheap cost of leasing the 458s, they probably wouldn't have got as good a deal on more 444s.

I'm not sure I follow here - surely for them to have wanted to bring back the discredited 458s, those would have needed to have much cheaper leasing costs than the 442s that they would ultimately displace, rather than just being cheaper than the 444s? Or is that what you are trying to say?

 

[SprinterMan]

I'm not sure I follow here - surely for them to have wanted to bring back the discredited 458s, those would have needed to have much cheaper leasing costs than the 442s that they would ultimately displace, rather than just being cheaper than the 444s? Or is that what you are trying to say?

458s were so poor they were alot cheaper than 442s or 444s, and with there being twice the number of 444s as there were 442s, and the fact that 444s and 450s were brand new and fully compatible with each other meant that the 442s had to go. They could confine the 458s to suburban lines with 455s and 450/5s, while all their long distance routes would be desiro operated, meaning drivers only had to effectively sign for one sort of stock.

Adam :P

 

[Eagle]

XC has the best PPM on any DEMU in the UK.

Not that they have much competition there—only two other TOCs have DEMUs. :P

Is impressive though, given how much longer and more complicated XC's routes are than VT's or EMT's.

 

[Schnellzug]

it's worth observing, incidentally, in view of all the talk about how the 458s are/were so poor, that don't they now have one of the best reliability records of anything, according to the survey Modern Railways regularly does?

 

[jopsuk]

They are indeed one of the most reliable fleets in the country, the work that's been done with them has been absolutely sterling. It'll be interesting to see how well they cope with the changes to their fleet.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

Back to the original thread:

Does anyone remember, in the early days of Virgin Trains on the West Coast, when they tried to introduce a 3-tier system of accommodation? So we had "Purple Zone" for the cheap seats, "Blue Zone" for the intermediates and "Gold Zone" for the rich. I can remember the Terms & Conditions associated with a "Virgin Value First" ticket, which were:- "at peak times, you'll travel in a narrow seat, at off-peak times, you'll travel in a wide seat". (Narrow = standard, wide = First).

It seemed to me to be a desperate plan to try to remove anything that smacked of what British Rail had done (as that was obviously BAD) - and to turn trains into an on-the-ground form of aircraft - which is pretty well what Virgin represent in my opinion, although they have settled down now.

(I think the original plans for the Voyagers did also include a 3-tier system of accommodation, with what would have been "Purple" zone coach(es) having 3+2 seating; hence the 3 enormous toilets per 4 coach train, one for each coloured Zone. At least some common sense prevailed before this was done.

Then (thankfully) enter Chris Green as new Virgin Trains CEO and immediately, Gold, Blue and Purple, together with "wide" and "narrow" were swept away, and we returned to nice and easy to understand First and Standard Class!!!

 

[ainsworth74]

So we had "Purple Zone" for the cheap seats, "Blue Zone" for the intermediates and "Gold Zone" for the rich.

Pretty sure the zonal system was a BR invention.

 

[Wolfie]

Pretty sure the zonal system was a BR invention.

Indeed. As I recall it was all about how to inform passengers where particular accomodation was on a train. Eg an announcement such as "The next train at platform 4 will be the 1456 to London Euston, first class accomodation will be in the Gold zone, standard class accomodation in the Blue zone".

 

[Johnny Lewis]

BR DID have coloured zones on the platforms at InterCity stations, which were Orange, Purple, Blue and Gold, and did, indeed, apply to different sections of the train - Gold was First Class, Orange was Standard Class smoking and Purple and Blue were other bits in between.

The Virgin thing was something different - it applied to the differences in on-board service. It was fairly short lived - which may be why no-one but me remembers it!! Anyway, Chris Green obviously thought it was a cr*p decision, which is why he got rid of it.

I think one or two stations in the south west still have the coloured areas on their platforms for the days when long-distance holiday trains used to call - I'm sure I remember seeing them at the likes of Dawlish, Teignmouth and Truro.

 

[tbtc]

Pretty sure the zonal system was a BR invention.

Indeed. As I recall it was all about how to inform passengers where particular accomodation was on a train. Eg an announcement such as "The next train at platform 4 will be the 1456 to London Euston, first class accomodation will be in the Gold zone, standard class accomodation in the Blue zone".

I thought that was a good idea - not everyone knows where the train will line up (on a long platform) and not everyone will know which end the "front" or "rear" of the train will be - knowing that I have to wait in the "blue" zone means I can plan where to wait with some certainty (and avoid the rush of people scrumming around when the train pulls in).

 

[LE Greys]

Could I ask what it is that makes 444s more suburban stock than mainline?

I meant for the Portsmouth Direct, which you quite rightly point out below, allowing them to cascade some 450s to replace the 458s

I do feel sorry for those living in Portsmouth who find themselves regularly riding 450s into London. I have noticed that Portsmouth trains provide 3 out of 4 of Guildford's fast trains into London per hour; is there any truth to the notion that a reasonable number of 450 diagrams are needed on this route in order to provide sufficient capacity for, and minimal dwell times at, Guildford?

That I don't know, but it is a good point. Still, 444s provide the bulk of main-line services from the similarly-sized Basingstoke.
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BR DID have coloured zones on the platforms at InterCity stations, which were Orange, Purple, Blue and Gold, and did, indeed, apply to different sections of the train - Gold was First Class, Orange was Standard Class smoking and Purple and Blue were other bits in between.

The Virgin thing was something different - it applied to the differences in on-board service. It was fairly short lived - which may be why no-one but me remembers it!! Anyway, Chris Green obviously thought it was a cr*p decision, which is why he got rid of it.

I think one or two stations in the south west still have the coloured areas on their platforms for the days when long-distance holiday trains used to call - I'm sure I remember seeing them at the likes of Dawlish, Teignmouth and Truro.

Still visible at Reading, Westbury and Bath a few years ago. Haven't been back for ages, though.

 

[317666]

? - XC has the best PPm on any DEMU in the Uk. I know they don't tilt but the don't break as much as Virgins.

The Virgin ones feel like they're in better condition though, particularly the interior - they don't rattle as much, they're cleaner, they generally feel nicer inside.

 

[Failed Unit]

Not that they have much competition there—only two other TOCs have DEMUs. :P

Is impressive though, given how much longer and more complicated XC's routes are than VT's or EMT's.

True, I think they top certain EMUs are well such as the pendo. I don't think any DMU is more reliable then them (happy to be corrected don't have my Jan edition of Modern Railways)

The XC voyager is one of the most reliable trains in the UK.