Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[Bletchleyite]

There's probably little point checking an Avanti between MK and Euston as MK is gated and they are closed most of the time. Only worth checking 1st and SP to ensure no freeloaders.

OK, someone could have boarded with an LNR Only ticket, but I'm not sure why anyone would as the Avanti Only ticket is (10p) cheaper.

 

[sk688]

There's probably little point checking an Avanti between MK and Euston as MK is gated and they are closed most of the time. Only worth checking 1st and SP to ensure no freeloaders.

OK, someone could have boarded with an LNR Only ticket, but I'm not sure why anyone would as the Avanti Only ticket is (10p) cheaper.

shortfaring must be high surely ?

someone getting through the barriers at MK with a Wolverton ticket or something , knowing there'll be no on train ticket checks or on arrival at euston

 

[bramling]

This isn’t my experience with LNER and Thameslink.

I’ve had ticket checks with both recently, on the relative short journey between Stevenage and London.

All e-tickets scanned (in fact an LNER guard charged two people in my carriage for travelling on incorrect tickets). I had a paper tickets and they were given only a brief glance.

Still haven’t had an on-train ticket check on the GN side of TL since pre Covid, though to be fair I’m travelling a lot less now.

Used c2c yesterday for first time in a long while. Interestingly all the gate lines we used were open, despite copious numbers of “security” staff. Is the c2c area nowadays *that* bad on a Monday daytime that they need bouncer-types at every station? It gives the impression of Wetherspoon on a Friday night rather than a professional railway environment.

 

[philthetube]

If the route is like some of Northern routes there are guards who always walk through but these are outnumbered by the ones who remain in the cab out-of-sight as much as possible. There's also some who do one walk through, prior to the train reaching it's final (barriered) destination.

Northern seem very variable dependant on route, I have never travelled Colne Preston without having my ticket checked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

shortfaring must be high surely ?

someone getting through the barriers at MK with a Wolverton ticket or something , knowing there'll be no on train ticket checks or on arrival at euston

Wolverton's fares are pretty much all the same as MKC's. Bletchley's aren't but it's rather de-minimis.

 

[Fokx]

Guards and station staff could therefore help fund their pay claim by ensuring everyone did pay?

The problem with that idea is nobody wants to pay for staff to be present. You only have to look at the number of ticket offices across the

If the route is like some of Northern routes there are guards who always walk through but these are outnumbered by the ones who remain in the cab out-of-sight as much as possible. There's also some who do one walk through, prior to the train reaching it's final (barriered) destination.

I find the issue with Northern is the stock used. On my local line which uses 323’s, the guards have a real hard time checking tickets because they can only operate the doors from the back cab or middle GOP whilst stopping every 2-4 minutes. There’s then also the 150/195’s etc with no gangway stopping full checks in all parts of the train, and stock such as the 170’s with no automatic announcements which swallow up more time for the guards duties.

The increase in Trainline and e-tickets also slows down ticket checks as most people will be using their device during their commute/travels and therefore spend longer having to ‘find’ their ticket by swapping apps, pausing content, switching between apps for railcards etc.

 

[sk688]

Wolverton's fares are pretty much all the same as MKC's. Bletchley's aren't but it's rather de-minimis.

i meant as in getting through the barriers at MK with a single to Bletchley , and then just jumping on an avanti to euston. As they arent scanning onboard or doing very few on arrival checks can see a fair few chancing it. Then again when an off peak return is less than £20 , do you really need to ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

i meant as in getting through the barriers at MK with a single to Bletchley , and then just jumping on an avanti to euston. As they arent scanning onboard or doing very few on arrival checks can see a fair few chancing it. Then again when an off peak return is less than £20 , do you really need to ?

Ah, "dumbbelling" - yes, it is vulnerable to that.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Open stations worked fine when everything was a 2 car DMU and the guard could easily get through. Longer trains have rendered that infeasible, plus the likes of Northern and their unnecessarily strict rules on where guards can dispatch from rather than trusting their professional judgement. South East DOO operations have unstaffed units and this doesn't cause major issues.

The problem was that once the whole network went open it meant that longer-distance services worked by trains much longer than 2 cars effectively became Paytrains. Even the most motivated guard wasn't going to patrol their train for fares under those conditions. So journeys like Chesterfield-Sheffield, Wakefield-Leeds, Burton-Derby, Newport-Cardiff and many others were very easy to make for free. Not to mention all the local journeys around the southeast when worked by 8-car MUs. As for DOO just check this very thread for all the tales of almost zero revenue protection on South Eastern Metro: that's been going on almost since the start of DOO on that part of the network. The reality is that even with widespread installation of barriers effective revenue protection needs actual members of staff to carry it out but DfT/HMT tend to view staff wages as a necessary evil to be avoided as much as possible rather than accepting it as a cost of doing business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reality is that even with widespread installation of barriers effective revenue protection needs actual members of staff to carry it out but DfT/HMT tend to view staff wages as a necessary evil to be avoided as much as possible rather than accepting it as a cost of doing business.

This is of course a purely financial tradeoff (unless you consider the "non financial" benefit of having staff there to ask questions etc) - does having the member of staff bring in more revenue than not having them? If it does they're worth having, if not then it might actually be more financially expedient to let it go.

Thus, it might not be worth staffing the MKC gateline in the late evening just to collect a few four quid singles to Bletchley or Wolverton - pretty much everyone else will be on a return half.

 

[johnnychips]

Northern seem very variable dependant on route, I have never travelled Colne Preston without having my ticket checked.

Same Sheffield to Doncaster and single-unit Hope Valley.

 

[brad465]

The Medway valley line can be poor for fare collection in multiple ways, not just because the guard might not check tickets, but some of the intermediate stations are notorious for having ticket machines that are either smashed up or just out of order. At Maidstone Barracks CCTV now overlooks the machine so maybe they're trying to sort this issue out, but its possible to travel between stations on the line without paying, although travelling to Strood, Tonbridge or beyond the boundaries of the branch is much more likely to lead to fare collection, as ticket gates are prevalent.

 

[Edsmith]

The Medway valley line can be poor for fare collection in multiple ways, not just because the guard might not check tickets, but some of the intermediate stations are notorious for having ticket machines that are either smashed up or just out of order. At Maidstone Barracks CCTV now overlooks the machine so maybe they're trying to sort this issue out, but its possible to travel between stations on the line without paying, although travelling to Strood, Tonbridge or beyond the boundaries of the branch is much more likely to lead to fare collection, as ticket gates are prevalent.

Facilities at Maidstone Barracks are rather meagre for a town centre station. I suspect many people only pay if the guard gets to them in time although it's rather difficult with dispatch duties as well. There is often anti social behaviour on that line as well.

 

[Alanko]

Compiling a log of ticket inspections, passenger headcount, with train times and dates to send to a TOC is insane behaviour.

 

[Chesh]

I travelled from Birmingham New Street to Hartford (Cheshire) at the weekend and was not checked on the train, although the barriers were up at New Street at entering and leaving the station, but there are other stations on the route that wouldn't have barriers in place.

I have found it quite the norm more recently, on my monthly trip back to the parents that tickets are checked less and less.

 

[Sonic1234]

If it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't know that Thameslink, Great Northern or London Overground ever checked tickets

 

[Shrop]

I travelled from Birmingham New Street to Hartford (Cheshire) at the weekend and was not checked on the train, although the barriers were up at New Street at entering and leaving the station, but there are other stations on the route that wouldn't have barriers in place.

I have found it quite the norm more recently, on my monthly trip back to the parents that tickets are checked less and less.

I agree that ticket checks are getting less, but why? Does this have anything to do with union grievances over pay and conditions, such as staff having less care about collecting revenue for their employers?

 

[Kite159]

I agree that ticket checks are getting less, but why? Does this have anything to do with union grievances over pay and conditions, such as staff having less care about collecting revenue for their employers?

Maybe the knowledge that revenue for most operators is going straight to the DfT and the TOC getting paid regardless means they are less motivated.

Although the same could be said by those stations where ticket gates are only part-time.

@brad465 agreed about the Medway Valley line being a hotbed of fare dodging, anybody travelling to Maidstone from the stations on the line can simply pay when challenged
I noticed in the summer that some of the TVMs were smashed up, revenue block at Snodland was doing a good job at keeping some ticketless folk from boarding a Maidstone train.

 

[brad465]

@brad465 agreed about the Medway Valley line being a hotbed of fare dodging, anybody travelling to Maidstone from the stations on the line can simply pay when challenged
I noticed in the summer that some of the TVMs were smashed up, revenue block at Snodland was doing a good job at keeping some ticketless folk from boarding a Maidstone train.

Yes the Maidstone Barracks and New Hythe ones were definitely smashed up, the former has since been fixed, don't know about New Hythe or any others' statuses. A revenue block at Snodland might well be one of the most efficient deployments of RPIs possible.

 

[Mzzzs]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that most time I take a southern service the guards on them just open and close the door at no point checking a ticket or even walk through a train just sit down and go on their phone. It just shows how bad the railways are now even more after covid. At that point, I think it's just a waste of people's money. However, must add some guards do a great job and deserve better.

 

[Shrop]

Maybe the knowledge that revenue for most operators is going straight to the DfT and the TOC getting paid regardless means they are less motivated.

Although the same could be said by those stations where ticket gates are only part-time.

@brad465 agreed about the Medway Valley line being a hotbed of fare dodging, anybody travelling to Maidstone from the stations on the line can simply pay when challenged
I noticed in the summer that some of the TVMs were smashed up, revenue block at Snodland was doing a good job at keeping some ticketless folk from boarding a Maidstone train.

It's quite a nightmare running rail services with fare dodging and vandalism both being rife throughout the country. When the punishment for fare dodging is simply that you have to pay your fare, you have to wonder at the state our country is in. It's almost as crazy as granting yourself a licence to go shoplifting, and if you're caught, your punishment is that you have to actually pay for your shopping.

I've said repeatedly that Government have a shameful disinterest in transport, and our railways are probably heading for even more dire straits than our road system is. When the Tories came to power they proudly proclaimed themselves as the party of Law and Order. Now I don't want to make this comment political, but if this is the closest we're going to get to having meaningful law enforcement, I do wonder how bad things might get with a Government even less capable in this regard. They seem very adept at making everything to do with railway operations (enforcement against fare dodging, vandalism etc.) purely the responsibility of that railway system which they purport to support, yet if and when the offenders have been caught by the rail authorities, our "Party of Law and Order" is woefully lacking in terms of providing effective deterrents against repeat offences. So much so that this probably explains why it's just not worth tackling all that many of the offenders. All a very sad reflection of our society, as led by our non rail supporting Government. Am I being too cynical?

 

[busestrains]

Apologies for asking basic questions, but I'm shortly visiting the UK. Haven't been to your nations for a while.

From the chat above, it seems conductors/guards have a handheld device for scanning tickets, and paper tickets may also be in use.

If staff sell tickets on board, are they printed from the handheld, or do they write a paper ticket? Do they accept Visa/Mastercard (depending on reception!) or cash? Do they give change? Do they have a laminated sheet or small book from which to calculate fares between station X and station Y?

And the last one for me specificially: I'll travel with a 1st class Eurailpass. The latter's Global Passes have been valid in UK since 2019, but am I going to have endless discussions with staff who haven't seen one and who incorrectly believe I'm trying to (as we say in Australia "pull a swifty" over them? (i.e. mislead/lie to them).

Yes you can still buy tickets from Guards onboard our trains. But not all trains have Guards onboard. Many operators and many lines have gone DOO and the Driver is the only staff member onboard the train. So on these trains there is no way to purchase onboard. But if you are travelling onboard a train with a Guard than you can buy onboard.

All Guards now use a smartphone (normally some type of Samsung Galaxy smartphone) to issue tickets which is connected to a bluetooth printer. Some TOCs Guards (eg, Southern, Southeastern, South Western Railway, East Midlands Railway, West Midlands Railway, London North Western Railway, Scotrail, Island Line, etc) use proper card sized printers (that print the same small card sized tickets that you get from TVMs) while other TOCs Guards (eg, Northern Rail, Transport For Wales, London North Eastern Railway, Trans Pennine Express, Avanti West Coast, Grand Central, etc) now use loo roll printers instead that print large massive receipt roll type tickets. So what sized ticket you get depends on the operator.

From around 2005 or so up until around 2017 all Guards on all TOCs had Avantix Mobile machines which was a heavy portable ticket machine that had the screen and printer all combined and printed the normal card sized tickets. But these are all gone now. Before that there was the PORTIS and SPORTIS machines.

They used to have some handwritten paper tickets decades ago. But those are long gone. They are all printed with proper printers. Some heritage railways still use handwritten tickets if you buy onboard. But on our main railway network those have not been used for decades.

They have not used faretables or papers or books to look up fares for decades. It is all done on their ticketing system on their phone. They enter the origin and destination and it brings up all if the different fares. Sort of the same way a ticket vending machine works. So no they got rid of paper faretables decades ago.

You can pay onboard with any payment method. You can indeed use cash and they do indeed give change. They always carry a change float. You can also use Debit Card or Credit Card or Rail Travel Vouchers to pay. They take both the Master Card and Visa Card versions.

Officially some operators have a policy that if you board at a station with an open ticket office or working ticket machines accepting your payment method than the Guard will only sell you full price Any Time tickets with no discount and they will not sell Off Peak or Super Off Peak or Railcard Discount tickets onboard. However 99.99% of Guards completely ignore this rule and sell you any ticket you want without question. You might get the occasional rare jobsworth Guard who enforces this. But in all my years of rail travel not once have i seen it enforced. I see Guards selling Off Peak and Super Off Peak and Railcard Discount tickets onboard even to people boarding at stations with open ticket offices and working ticket machines every day. So there is usually no issue purchasing any ticket you want from a Guard onboard the train.

All of the above applies for, Guards, Conductors, Train Managers, Ticket Examiners, On Board Supervisors, On Board Managers, and the various other names they use.

The only problem is one the very rare occasion you come across a Revenue Protection Inspector as they can give Penalty Fares and report you for prosecution and will very rarely sell you a ticket. Where as Guards do not have the power to issue Penalty Fares or report you for prosecution. So a Guard will just sell you a ticket onboard. So the Revenue Protection Inspectors are the ones you have to watch out for.

However if you board at a station with no TVM or no working TVM and no ticket office or no open ticket office (meaning that there is no way to purchase before boarding) or if you board at a station where there is no open ticket office and the machines only take card and you wish to pay cash (meaning that there is no cash accepting facilities) or the ticket you wish to purchase is unavailable at the ticket machines and there is no open ticket office (such as purchasing rover tickets and ranger tickets) than the Revenue Protection Inspectors have to sell you a ticket onboard as you were unable to buy before boarding. Some of them are known to be incompetent and sometimes even rude and aggressive but any attempt to issue a Penalty Fare or report for prosecution would not be valid. Revenue Protection Inspectors do have ticket machines on them so they can and should issue tickets when necessary. However it is very rare to see Revenue Protection Inspectors as there are so few of them so you probably will not come across any.

I purchase tickets onboard the train from the Guard with cash multiple times a week. There is never any issue for me. So you should be fine if you need to purchase one onboard.

As for staff not knowing about Eurailpass it is very likely you will come across plenty of staff who have no idea what it is and have never heard of it. Even i have regular problems with our own British tickets (especially some types of rover tickets and ranger tickets) with staff not knowing what they are. Sometimes with standard Single and Return tickets staff do not know the rules. Our fares system is extremely complex so it is difficult for staff to know about all of the different types of tickets. However the vast majority of staff will be fine once you explain to them what it is. You might get an occasional jobsworth but i doubt you will have any problems and most staff will be fine once you explain to them.

 

[yorkie]

Most TPE services are bad for revenue collection; only a few Guards scan tickets (I've congratulated a few that do!) and many Guards do not even look at tickets, with a not insignificant number simply not seen at all throughout the journey.

I agree that ticket checks are getting less, but why? Does this have anything to do with union grievances over pay and conditions, such as staff having less care about collecting revenue for their employers?

Yep; a TPE Guard I know said today they have no intention of doing anything other than the bare minimum at the current time, and therefore tend to stay in the cab. They said if they were paid more, they may consider doing things differently.

Yes you can still buy tickets from Guards onboard our trains. But not all trains have Guards onboard. Many operators and many lines have gone DOO and the Driver is the only staff member onboard the train. So on these trains there is no way to purchase onboard. But if you are travelling onboard a train with a Guard than you can buy onboard.

Not quite.

Some operators (e.g. SWR) have non-commercial Guards, while others operate DOO services that have staff who do sell tickets but are not Guards (e.g. Scotrail ticket examiners, Southeastern on board managers, GTR on board supervisors etc).

The trains I find my tickets most frequently checked on are the Scotrail DOO services; their staff are really keen and I've even had my ticket checked as the doors have still been closing. I've made journeys to the Glasgow area consisting of several trains over hundreds of miles with no sign of any ticket checking staff up until I board the Scotrail ticket, then it can be checked within seconds of boarding!

I know this is heresy on this forum, but I'd much rather drinkers were heading back to Wem from Shrewsbury on the train rather than driving back.

And if we lose a few pennies on fares - let's say 30 people dodging the £5.70 return fare making a grand total of £170-ish every Friday - does it really matter? Attending to one road accident caused by a drunk driver speeding in the dark at, say, Harmer Hill will cost the public purse tens of thousands at least.

But is it really an either/or choice? Are people choosing not to drink drive only because they think they are not going to get a ticket check if they go by train?

I suppose some people do odd things but this seems very obscure to me; do dozens of people really make such a choice?

 

[L401CJF]

I think it's a bit ridiculous that most time I take a southern service the guards on them just open and close the door at no point checking a ticket or even walk through a train just sit down and go on their phone. It just shows how bad the railways are now even more after covid. At that point, I think it's just a waste of people's money. However, must add some guards do a great job and deserve better.

I do agree, and the lack of guards checking tickets is hardly justifying their existence - which in the current climate of trying to cut costs on the railways is quite a dangerous move.

Personally I try to get through the train after every stop where possible. On trains which aren't full and standing I manage to get around 95% tickets checked.

I keep a record of my daily totals taken for commission purposes and I have taken considerably more in ticket sales than my wage so far this year. Im pretty lenient with my checks and try to educate where possible. Some wonder why I bother checking tickets after each stop but its pretty simple - I'm justifying my roles existence, earning some decent commission, and the day goes so much quicker if you keep busy! Plus it is reassuring to the customer if I am in the train and it is nice to chat to people along the way.

 

[busestrains]

Most TPE services are bad for revenue collection; only a few Guards scan tickets (I've congratulated a few that do!) and many Guards do not even look at tickets, with a not insignificant number simply not seen at all throughout the journey.



Yep; a TPE Guard I know said today they have no intention of doing anything other than the bare minimum at the current time, and therefore tend to stay in the cab. They said if they were paid more, they may consider doing things differently.


Not quite.

Some operators (e.g. SWR) have non-commercial Guards, while others operate DOO services that have staff who do sell tickets but are not Guards (e.g. Scotrail ticket examiners, Southeastern on board managers, GTR on board supervisors etc).

The trains I find my tickets most frequently checked on are the Scotrail DOO services; their staff are really keen and I've even had my ticket checked as the doors have still been closing. I've made journeys to the Glasgow area consisting of several trains over hundreds of miles with no sign of any ticket checking staff up until I board the Scotrail ticket, then it can be checked within seconds of boarding!


But is it really an either/or choice? Are people choosing not to drink drive only because they think they are not going to get a ticket check if they go by train?

I suppose some people do odd things but this seems very obscure to me; do dozens of people really make such a choice?

Yes there are some exceptions. There are some Non Commercial Guards and there are some DOO trains with staff selling tickets onboard. Like the example that you mentioned of Scotrail and also the SE OBMs and the SN OBSs too.

What i find interesting is that the Ticket Examiners on Scotrail will very commonly walk through the train and check and sell tickets. But yet the On Board Supervisors on Southern who perform the exact same job rarely ever walk through the train and check tickets and seem to mostly just sit down between stops and go on their phone or read the paper. It is very rare that a SN OBS checks tickets from my experience and normally if you want to buy one you have to go find them. So it is quite interesting how different TOCs have different attitudes to ticket checking.

Generally these days ticket checking is very rare. Even when i travel on trains with Commercial Guards or OBS or OBM onboard i find that SWR and GWR and SE and SN are all appalling at checking tickets. The staff on these four operators very rarely bother to check tickets.

SWR is a very odd one as they have a mixture of Commercial Guards (who check and sell tickets) and Non Commercial Guards (who do not check and sell tickets) but both types of Guards operate many of the same routes. So one day your train may have a Commercial Guard onboard and another day your train may have a Non Commercial Guard onboard. I have taken the same trains between the same places and it often seems quite random which type of Guard you will get.

Eurostar and Merseyrail are the only other operators with Non Commercial Guards but unlike SWR all of the Guards on Eurostar and Merseyrail are Non Commercial Guards and do not check or sell tickets.

I believe that C2C used to also have some Non Commercial Guards on their 12 coach trains (which they called "Train Captains" instead) until around 2018 or 2019 i think. I think the London Overground had Non Commercial Guards too until around 2013 or 2014 i believe.

So to summarise the current situation is:

Avanti West Coast, Caledonian Sleeper, Cross Country, East Midlands Railways, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Island Line, London North Eastern Railway, London North Western Railway, Northern, Trans Pennine Express, Translink Northern Ireland Railways, Transport For Wales, West Midlands Railway, all have Commercial Guards who sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

Eurostar, Merseyrail, both have Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

South Western Railway, have Guards on 100% of their trains but it is a mixture of Commercial Guards who sell tickets and Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets.

C2C, Great Northern, Heathrow Express, London Overground, Stansted Express, TFL Rail, Thameslink, are all fully DOO on 100% of their trains with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Chiltern Railways have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard 100% of trains North of Banbury and are fully DOO onboard 100% of trains South of Banbury with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Gatwick Express are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard South of Gatwick and with an On Board Supervisor onboard North of Gatwick who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages).

Scotrail have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 153/156/158/170/MK3 trains. They are 100% DOO but with a Ticket Examiner onboard all 318/320/334 trains. The 380/385 are a mixture of the two above methods depending on the route. So there is always a staff member to buy a ticket from onboard.

Southern have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 171/313 operated trains and onboard all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central trains and onboard some Redhill to Tonbridge trains. They are 100% DOO but with an On Board Supervisor onboard all Coastway and Mainline 377/387 trains who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages). They are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard all Metro 377/387 trains.

Southeastern have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all Mainline 375/377/465/466 trains. They are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard all Metro 375/376/377/465/466/707 trains. They are 100% DOO but with an On Board Manager onboard all 395 trains (who are guaranteed to be onboard).

Great Western Railway have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 150/158/MK3 trains. While the 165/166/387/800/802 are a mixture of some trains having Commercial Guards onboard who sell tickets and other trains being 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard depending on the route.

Greater Anglia are similar and also a mixture of some trains having Commercial Guards onboard who sell tickets and other trains being 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard depending on the route.

So yes it is very complicating but some DOO trains do have other staff onboard to purchase your ticket from.

 

[skyhigh]

When the punishment for fare dodging is simply that you have to pay your fare, you have to wonder at the state our country is in.

Which is quite frankly nonsense. A quick look at the Prosecution section of the forum will show you that.

 

[L401CJF]

Yes there are some exceptions. There are some Non Commercial Guards and there are some DOO trains with staff selling tickets onboard. Like the example that you mentioned of Scotrail and also the SE OBMs and the SN OBSs too.

What i find interesting is that the Ticket Examiners on Scotrail will very commonly walk through the train and check and sell tickets. But yet the On Board Supervisors on Southern who perform the exact same job rarely ever walk through the train and check tickets and seem to mostly just sit down between stops and go on their phone or read the paper. It is very rare that a SN OBS checks tickets from my experience and normally if you want to buy one you have to go find them. So it is quite interesting how different TOCs have different attitudes to ticket checking.

Generally these days ticket checking is very rare. Even when i travel on trains with Commercial Guards or OBS or OBM onboard i find that SWR and GWR and SE and SN are all appalling at checking tickets. The staff on these four operators very rarely bother to check tickets.

SWR is a very odd one as they have a mixture of Commercial Guards (who check and sell tickets) and Non Commercial Guards (who do not check and sell tickets) but both types of Guards operate many of the same routes. So one day your train may have a Commercial Guard onboard and another day your train may have a Non Commercial Guard onboard. I have taken the same trains between the same places and it often seems quite random which type of Guard you will get.

Eurostar and Merseyrail are the only other operators with Non Commercial Guards but unlike SWR all of the Guards on Eurostar and Merseyrail are Non Commercial Guards and do not check or sell tickets.

I believe that C2C used to also have some Non Commercial Guards on their 12 coach trains (which they called "Train Captains" instead) until around 2018 or 2019 i think. I think the London Overground had Non Commercial Guards too until around 2013 or 2014 i believe.

So to summarise the current situation is:

Avanti West Coast, Caledonian Sleeper, Cross Country, East Midlands Railways, Grand Central, Hull Trains, Island Line, London North Eastern Railway, London North Western Railway, Northern, Trans Pennine Express, Translink Northern Ireland Railways, Transport For Wales, West Midlands Railway, all have Commercial Guards who sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

Eurostar, Merseyrail, both have Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets on 100% of their trains.

South Western Railway, have Guards on 100% of their trains but it is a mixture of Commercial Guards who sell tickets and Non Commercial Guards who do not sell tickets.

C2C, Great Northern, Heathrow Express, London Overground, Stansted Express, TFL Rail, Thameslink, are all fully DOO on 100% of their trains with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Chiltern Railways have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard 100% of trains North of Banbury and are fully DOO onboard 100% of trains South of Banbury with the Driver being the one and only staff member onboard.

Gatwick Express are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard South of Gatwick and with an On Board Supervisor onboard North of Gatwick who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages).

Scotrail have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 153/156/158/170/MK3 trains. They are 100% DOO but with a Ticket Examiner onboard all 318/320/334 trains. The 380/385 are a mixture of the two above methods depending on the route. So there is always a staff member to buy a ticket from onboard.

Southern have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 171/313 operated trains and onboard all Clapham Junction to Milton Keynes Central trains and onboard some Redhill to Tonbridge trains. They are 100% DOO but with an On Board Supervisor onboard all Coastway and Mainline 377/387 trains who sell tickets (but they are not guaranteed and the train can run without them due to staff shortages). They are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard all Metro 377/387 trains.

Southeastern have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all Mainline 375/377/465/466 trains. They are 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard all Metro 375/376/377/465/466/707 trains. They are 100% DOO but with an On Board Manager onboard all 395 trains (who are guaranteed to be onboard).

Great Western Railway have Commercial Guards who sell tickets onboard all 150/158/MK3 trains. While the 165/166/387/800/802 are a mixture of some trains having Commercial Guards onboard who sell tickets and other trains being 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard depending on the route.

Greater Anglia are similar and also a mixture of some trains having Commercial Guards onboard who sell tickets and other trains being 100% DOO with nobody other than the Driver onboard depending on the route.

So yes it is very complicating but some DOO trains do have other staff onboard to purchase your ticket from.

Merseyrail Guards are supposed to check tickets and have a near constant in train presence. It is very uncommon for them to check tickets (some do) but even then they cant sell them or enforce it in any way hence most don't bother.

Ticket checks on Merseyrail by in House revenue teams and Carlisle security bylaw enforcement "rent-a-thugs" are very common though - particularly the latter where even having a valid ticket is deemed suitable for a penalty fare in a lot of cases as they have little knowledge of tickets at all OK a slight exaggeration, but not far off

 

[busestrains]

Merseyrail Guards are supposed to check tickets and have a near constant in train presence. It is very uncommon for them to check tickets (some do) but even then they cant sell them or enforce it in any way hence most don't bother.

Ticket checks on Merseyrail by in House revenue teams and Carlisle security bylaw enforcement "rent-a-thugs" are very common though - particularly the latter where even having a valid ticket is deemed suitable for a penalty fare in a lot of cases as they have little knowledge of tickets at all OK a slight exaggeration, but not far off

That is interesting to hear. I do not think i have ever seen a Guard on Merseyrail leave the cab or check tickets. If they are unable to do anything about people without tickets than it seems pointless to check tickets. So i am not surprised that they do not bother.

I am pretty sure the 507s and 508s had Guard door control panels installed in the saloon many years ago so this was probably to make it easier for them to check tickets but i have never seen a Guard use these panels.

Carlisle Support Services are terrible. Merseyrail and Northern both use them. All of the ones that i have come across have had almost no ticket knowledge and terrible attitude. Some of them do indeed come across as aggressive thugs in the way they behave. Both of these companies should scrap them and bring it entirely back in house.

 

[Fokx]

If they are unable to do anything about people without tickets than it seems pointless to check tickets. So i am not surprised that they do not bother.

I am pretty sure the 507s and 508s had Guard door control panels installed in the saloon many years ago so this was probably to make it easier for them to check tickets but i have never seen a Guard use these.

It became dramatically less frequent when Merseytravel began to issue tickets and products on Smart Cards in the early 10’s. For months most operators in Merseyside (Merseyrail included) had absolutely no way to check ITSO cards such as the local area passes, and then walrus products such as saveaway and Trio. As of 2021 I’ve had the ability to it with my work phone, should I not have a machine with me but I can’t comment if merseytravel guards have the same ability.

Guards do occasionally use the GOP’s still for dispatch, but I’ll admit I’ve seen this more frequently on the Wirral lines.

 

[Shrop]

Which is quite frankly nonsense. A quick look at the Prosecution section of the forum will show you that.

Not sure of your point here, are you saying the situation is nonsense, or my comment? If the latter, then I don't think you should feel any need to be defensive. I'm despairing at the situation too, not the manner in which the rail companies handle it. There are many rail staff who work very hard in near impossible situations, such as collecting fares while faced with crowds who will try all sorts of tactics to avoid paying, and with very little support either in sufficient staff numbers or the backing of legal penalties. A major review is needed, which can only be done with sufficient Government interest and support.