Worst Rail Routes for fare collection in members' experience?

[43066]

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned yet is that there are many people out there who need to use the train but genuinely can't afford the fare. Working people with low wages, high rent, extortionate bills and cost of living gone through the roof while already low wages have stagnated. If someone is already reliant on food banks to feed themselves and their family and is absolutely cr*pping themselves about what their energy bills are going to be this winter, the last thing on their mind is going to be paying an expensive train fare when there's a very high chance nobody will bother checking anyway. Some of these point blank refusals to pay are because people are genuinely totally skint, but if they don't use the train to get to work they'll be in an even worse situation. I'm not saying they should get a free pass but they do deserve a bit of sympathy.

Being poor might well be deserving of sympathy. It doesn’t excuse criminal activity, though.

 

[busestrains]

Apologies, I should have clarified. OBSs must be diagrammed for non-BML Southern services (outwith the Metro area). They don't need to be diagrammed for BML or Metro services. In all cases, the train can run without the OBS if the turn is uncovered or they're delayed etc. The only Southern services where a second member of staff is mandatory are those which are 313 and 171 operated, and services on the West London Line to the West Coast Main Line; in any event, these use guards, who are a different role to OBSs.

Ah yes i see what you mean now. Sorry i thought you were referring to them not being allowed to run without one onboard. One thing to add certain 377 on the Redhill to Tonbridge line (roughly about 50% of them) still have to have Guards but other than that it is just the 171 and 313 trains and the Clapham Junction to Watford Junction and Milton Keynes 377 trains you mention.

One thing i have always wondered do you know if GX OBS can work SN OBS duties and if SN OBS can work GX OBS duties? I know the GX OBS do not take cash (making then perhaps the only cashless onboard staff onboard our trains) but the SN OBS do take cash (like almost all other onboard staff) so they perhaps get given different levels of training? I am wondering what happened to all the GX OBS during the two years it was suspended? I wonder if there was other work for them?

Anyway having OBS on Gatwick Express is pretty pointless anyway. Most passengers already have tickets. Maybe they are hoping to find someone with a "Not Gatwick Express" or "Southern Only" or "Thameslink Only" ticket or someone who started somewhere else. But from my experience the OBS on Gatwick Express very rarely walk through the train and check tickets so it all seems like a waste of money and resources having them on these trains.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Are you sure? Is that a new thing?

Most certain considering I travel on the GX to/from BTN almost every day of every week. How long they've been there, I don't know. I've never seen a OBS crew change take place at Brighton though. Of course, this is all likely to be the result of the GX being 2tph to BTN, and not 4tph with 2 continuing to BTN.

The only Southern services where a second member of staff is mandatory are those which are 313 and 171 operated

I've experienced a case of a driver refusing to take a 12 car 377 without a second member of staff on the BML saying they don't take anything longer than 8 without said OBS. Would anyone in the know be able to comment on whether this was one stubborn driver, or a practiced operation?

if SN OBS can work GX OBS duties?

Apologies, this came up immediately after my own posting. SN OBS and Conductors can indeed work GX OBS duties.

 

[bramling]

Absolutely. It’s fairly standard across most industries that when people are feeling disengaged and unmotivated they won’t perform to their best, absence will increase etc. The nature of the guard role means that a fair bit of self motivation is required to really shine and there’s perhaps more scope than other jobs for either doing a great deal, or getting by with the bare minimum, depending on one’s individual temperament and motivation levels. The difference between a good guard and a mediocre one will be a lot larger than the equivalent for drivers, for example.

The driver grade is certainly different. Indeed it seems to be the case that most drivers turn cynical pretty quickly by default, but how “awkward” they become is more influenced by the relationship with their own local management, which is of course a completely different thing to company politics.

It does seem to be a thing which many just don’t get about the industry, that because most staff work comparatively alone and unsupervised, it is very easy for people to do the bare minimum (or even less) if there’s a toxic culture. Yet for some reason large parts of the industry seem to relish running just such a culture. It’s really quite strange, and can only be put down to an entrenched poor culture within elements of management.

 

[Watershed]

Most certain considering I travel on the GX to/from BTN almost every day of every week. How long they've been there, I don't know. I've never seen a OBS crew change take place at Brighton though. Of course, this is all likely to be the result of the GX being 2tph to BTN, and not 4tph with 2 continuing to BTN.

Indeed; I can confirm that all GX services have OBSs rostered throughout the journey.

I've experienced a case of a driver refusing to take a 12 car 377 without a second member of staff on the BML saying they don't take anything longer than 8 without said OBS. Would anyone in the know be able to comment on whether this was one stubborn driver, or a practiced operation?

Stubborn driver. There was even a legal challenge on this issue, and it was held that GTR could force drivers to work 12 car trains DOO (without any second member of staff).

 

[RPI]

Because these are non-threatening middle class people who comply, give correct details and beg for a chance to pay a £100+ admin fee for their "mistake" (whether they return to the railway after is another question, in the long term I imagine a lot will choose not to). It does feel wrong to see on here such people being threatened with criminal sanctions when those who have no intention of paying just push through barriers, or even get them opened for them.

Not really no, the vast majority of MG11's/PF's I do are the no ticket/no money brigade, the only pay once a year when challenged brigade, the ones who threaten to find out where you live, wait for you after work, the big blokes with tattoos etc, to say we pick easy targets is bullsh*t.
We deal with whats in front of us, the difference is the big builder bloke who gets caught or the wannabe gangster from Frome isn't going to come on a forum like this trying to wriggle out of it.
It doesn't matter if you're middle class or living in a crack den, if you avoid your fare and get caught you will be dealt with, quite simple.

 

[Edsmith]

Not really no, the vast majority of MG11's/PF's I do are the no ticket/no money brigade, the only pay once a year when challenged brigade, the ones who threaten to find out where you live, wait for you after work, the big blokes with tattoos etc, to say we pick easy targets is bullsh*t.
We deal with whats in front of us, the difference is the big builder bloke who gets caught or the wannabe gangster from Frome isn't going to come on a forum like this trying to wriggle out of it.
It doesn't matter if you're middle class or living in a crack den, if you avoid your fare and get caught you will be dealt with, quite simple.

That's how it should be but I'm not sure that's what often happens in practice. An incident on a Southeastern train I witnessed a while back, a 'wannabe gangster type' has no ticket, no explanation as to why, refuses to give his details and threats to call police and telling him he's on CCTV make no difference, he just sits looking at his phone and totally blanks the revenue staff. He gets off at the next station, nobody follows him and unless he's identified through CCTV footage he's obviously got away with it where as the "non threatening middle class person" mentioned in a previous post would probably have the proverbial book thrown at them.

 

[bramling]

Not really no, the vast majority of MG11's/PF's I do are the no ticket/no money brigade, the only pay once a year when challenged brigade, the ones who threaten to find out where you live, wait for you after work, the big blokes with tattoos etc, to say we pick easy targets is bullsh*t.
We deal with whats in front of us, the difference is the big builder bloke who gets caught or the wannabe gangster from Frome isn't going to come on a forum like this trying to wriggle out of it.
It doesn't matter if you're middle class or living in a crack den, if you avoid your fare and get caught you will be dealt with, quite simple.

This isn’t really the typical experience in the London area though. Here it won’t be a wannabe gangster, but quite possibly a real one. Revenue most certainly do give such people a wide berth especially when not in large numbers and/or supported by BTP, and whilst it’s not great one can hardly blame them for it.

Whilst I’m sure such types certainly do get caught by the big station sting operations, these are still comparatively rare, especially for journeys in certain areas or at certain times.

It is quite common to see someone or perhaps a group do the stereotypical eyeballing accompanied by muttering something aggressively in a foreign language. Revenue certainly do let this go, I’ve seen it happen.

 

[43066]

It doesn't matter if you're middle class or living in a crack den, if you avoid your fare and get caught you will be dealt with, quite simple.

How exactly will someone be “dealt with” by revenue staff if they simply refuse to cooperate or furnish any details?

That's how it should be but I'm not sure that's what often happens in practice. An incident on a Southeastern train I witnessed a while back, a 'wannabe gangster type' has no ticket, no explanation as to why, refuses to give his details and threats to call police and telling him he's on CCTV make no difference, he just sits looking at his phone and totally blanks the revenue staff. He gets off at the next station, nobody follows him and unless he's identified through CCTV footage he's obviously got away with it where as the "non threatening middle class person" mentioned in a previous post would probably have the proverbial book thrown at them.

That’s the sort of thing I’ve also seen happen many, many times.

Revenue most certainly do give such people a wide berth especially when not in large numbers and/or supported by BTP, and whilst it’s not great one can hardly blame them for it.

Indeed so. Sadly this does rather support the OP’s concern re. people who cooperate getting harsher treatment than those who refuse to give details/threaten violence.

 

[Dai Corner]

How exactly will someone be “dealt with” by revenue staff if they simply refuse to cooperate or furnish any details?

When they have revenue blocks at stations, aren't BTP often in attendance to arrest such people? A travelling guard or RPI could also request police to meet the train.

 

[Edsmith]

When they have revenue blocks at stations, aren't BTP often in attendance to arrest such people? A travelling guard or RPI could also request police to meet the train.

Even if BTP are in attendance it's unlikely anyone will be arrested just over a ticketing issue and police are often given false details, there is no requirement to carry ID.

 

[Route115?]

I can't remember a ticket check on the southern section of the Chiltern Line (which is D.O.O.) The gates at Marylebone are always staffed as are the larger outer stations but you could probably get away with a ticket to Wembley Stadium or without a ticket between smaller outer stations.

 

[RPI]

How exactly will someone be “dealt with” by revenue staff if they simply refuse to cooperate or furnish any details?

If the BTP don't attend then they don't, my point is we at least try and confront these individuals, generally they're known by BTP and our bodyworn CCTV has been used to follow plenty of these types up, it may seem at the time that they've gotten away with it but you'd be genuinely surprised how many are caught in "slow time" after the incident.

Indeed so. Sadly this does rather support the OP’s concern re. people who cooperate getting harsher treatment than those who refuse to give details/threaten viviolence.

The reality can be that but I always have a go at dealing with anyone, if done in a tactful manner you'd be surprised just how even the most hard-core aggressor can be talked around, I've had people initially in my face threatening all sorts, with a bit of tact and clever talking I've ended the interaction with their full verified details and thanking me, in the TOC I work for RPI'S do a lot of lone working so its in your own interests to be able to talk to anyone from a lord to homeless person and everything in between.
There will always be some that get away but in the present time you can end up finding out a person's details just from the tiniest crumb of information, social media (which is information in the public domain) is an incredibly good tool.

 

[markymark2000]

One of the best RPI stings that I've watched was at a station when there was engineering works on. The station has 2 platforms and because of the works, all trains went off 1 platform (the south facing) then crossed over to the other line. For some bizzare reason, Revenue decided to do a sting on the other platform, the one with no trains on it but no one clicked onto this and no one told them to 1, move to the platform with trains or head downstairs to check tickets on the rail replacement buses. Whoever is organising the RPI stings clearly isn't very good at their job. Needless to say, no one got caught and ticketless travellers kept plodding through on the trains and buses.



On a side note, I think it's not helpful the amount of stations which have ticket barriers opened at night. People get to learn these times and time fare evasion around it, specifically nights. If we can have part remote gate monitoring (but still on site) and remote help for ticket machines, why can't this be enhanced to include remote ticket gate monitoring (remote location, off station), as long as someone is on the station to deal with immediate issues. (could be a station manager or dispatcher etc). I get that it's not viable to have 1 person on the gates all day during lower demand times but 1 person to look over 3 stations perhaps from 9pm-last train, that would work? station staff who are on shift aren't able to be on the gates all the time but could easily nip to sort someone out on the gates then carry on their normal duties.

 

[Kite159]

It's not helpful to have stations with multiple entrances but only the main entrance has barriers, leaving a side entrance wide open (Cheshunt, Rainham). Those who think payment is strictly optional will simply use the side entrance to gain access to the station.

@markymark2000 the issue with remote gates is that the pay when challenged lot will simply jump over or even force their way through. Although some do that even with a member of staff/contractor standing there, knowing they are powerless to do anything.

----

I reckon the lines out of Stratford when passengers are going to an unbarriered station will have a few payment is optional passengers on, those who arrive at Stratford on another train using oyster/contactless and simply touch out before boarding their train without holding a ticket.

 

[markymark2000]

@markymark2000 the issue with remote gates is that the pay when challenged lot will simply jump over or even force their way through. Although some do that even with a member of staff/contractor standing there, knowing they are powerless to do anything.

Some will, some won't. It's about deterrent isn't it. CCTV doesn't stop all crime but it deters people. Fences don't stop trespass, but it's a damn good deterrent.

 

[Hadders]

When they have revenue blocks at stations, aren't BTP often in attendance to arrest such people? A travelling guard or RPI could also request police to meet the train.

BTP don't have anywhere near the level of resource you probably suspect they have.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Used c2c yesterday for first time in a long while. Interestingly all the gate lines we used were open, despite copious numbers of “security” staff. Is the c2c area nowadays *that* bad on a Monday daytime that they need bouncer-types at every station? It gives the impression of Wetherspoon on a Friday night rather than a professional railway environment.

The same is to be said with security guards (many of whom are sorely ill-mannered) patrolling many of even the quietest TfW Valley Lines services, and Newport station. They're seemingly absolutely desperate for power too. I've seen them tell people to stop walking up and down the train so much, and not to film out of the window.

BTP don't have anywhere near the level of resource you probably suspect they have.

I also think prioritising BTP for revenue is a horrendous waste; I'd far rather they prioritised dealing with the violent, too drunk, and dangerous offenders rather than one that's simply skipped a fare.

 

[the sniper]

I also think prioritising BTP for revenue is a horrendous waste; I'd far rather they prioritised dealing with the violent, too drunk, and dangerous offenders rather than one that's simply skipped a fare.

These things usually go hand in hand with fare evasion. If they're out looking for fare evaders, they can't miss everything else you prioritise. At least it gets them out...

 

[RPI]

These things usually go hand in hand with fare evasion. If they're out looking for fare evaders, they can't miss everything else you prioritise. At least it gets them out...

Absolutely, prioritising getting them out of the office would be a start

 

[Edsmith]

The same is to be said with security guards (many of whom are sorely ill-mannered) patrolling many of even the quietest TfW Valley Lines services, and Newport station. They're seemingly absolutely desperate for power too. I've seen them tell people to stop walking up and down the train so much, and not to film out of the window.


I also think prioritising BTP for revenue is a horrendous waste; I'd far rather they prioritised dealing with the violent, too drunk, and dangerous offenders rather than one that's simply skipped a fare.

I think many people will echo those sentiments and police officers standing around chatting, as inevitably they would be much of the time, doesn't go down well with the public. That said BTP are often there for other reasons, sniffer dogs detecting drugs etc, but most people are likely to take the view that it's up to the TOC to prevent fare evasion just as you wouldn't see police officers in a supermarket looking for shoplifters.

 

[yorkie]

This is false - there is an OBS on-board for the whole route. Whether they check or not is a seperate matter.

No, what was posted is absolutely true.

DOO means Driver Only Operated and refers to the operation of the train; it makes no mention of whether or not any other staff are on board.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

No, what was posted is absolutely true.

DOO means Driver Only Operated and refers to the operation of the train; it makes no mention of whether or not any other staff are on board.

I was replying to the 'nobody on board south of Gatwick' aspect. There is no dispute over the operation of the train

 

[yorkie]

I was replying to the 'nobody on board south of Gatwick' aspect. There is no dispute over the operation of the train

Ah, I understand what you meant now

 

[Bikeman78]

We've also had mention of massive fare evasion on some Scottish routes, not helped by the increased difficulty in prosecuting offenders caused by Scottish law. I assum this is also a disincentive to conductors to try to get all fares due, especially on late night services when the chances of violence/fracas increases.

This got me wondering - which GB route in this group's esteemed members' experience has the worst fare collection rates, and on which trains? And how much of a difference does this make to the DfT station entrance-exit stats, with potential knock-on effect in terms of lack of improved service enhancement?

I'd agree about Scotrail. Pre Covid you'd be lucky to last two minutes on an electric train around Glasgow without having your ticket checked. April this year it was 50/50 at best. Makes me wonder what the ticket examiners on the other trains were actually doing. Bearing in mind the trains are DOO their only job is to check and sell tickets.

Not just the UK. The Dutch guards have given up any attempt at checking tickets. Again, they used to be very keen. On the other hand the Belgians still check tickets thoroughly.

 

[Granpuff]

Interesting thread. I travelled on a West mids to Stafford this morning,never saw the conductor and no ticket check boarding at Liverpool Lime street nor leaving at Stafford.Travelled back on an Avanti west coast, same again,no conductor nor ticket checks at Stafford or lime street.

 

[Cloud Strife]

The same is to be said with security guards (many of whom are sorely ill-mannered) patrolling many of even the quietest TfW Valley Lines services, and Newport station. They're seemingly absolutely desperate for power too. I've seen them tell people to stop walking up and down the train so much, and not to film out of the window.

A friend of mine was threatened with arrest by one of them for filming!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

A friend of mine was threatened with arrest by one of them for filming!

They infuriate me. When it comes to over-the-top security guards (and the rude majority of club bouncers), my theory is that they failed to make it into the police and therefore do what it takes to make themselves feel powerful You'll notice, by sharp contrast, most of the policemen and women you see walking around Cardiff are absolutely lovely.

TfW guards tend to check on a rather random basis from my experience, but are often quick about it and pleasant, don't make a fuss and let customers buy on board. I rather like them.

 

[185143]

I remember being on the Sheerness branch a few years ago. The pretty empty mainline train I was on into Sittingbourne had a group of RPIs on it, who took interest in my ticket (in a good way! It was a Kent Rover and I'm not local in the slightest, got a couple of 'Spoons reccomendations amongst other things from them.)

They also alighted at Sittingbourne and joined me on the Sheerness branch. The main thing that journey missed was a bucket of popcorn, the RPIs were kept extremely busy, with a suspiciously high amount of people getting off at the front of the train at the next station!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With regard to late evenings on many more local routes almost everyone will be on a return ticket, so the tiny amount of revenue lost is not worth the cost of the staff.