Worst Refurbishments?

[87015]

Those FSR Refurbished 158s really are the best of the class - Tables & Seats that, Shock Horror!, Actually match up with the windows, extra large lugguage space, comfortable seats and a fairly decent PA system!

Personally I'd prefer a slightly less refurbished 158 that works properly. The Scotrail ones have the lowest reliability and the aircon is a complete farce on them every summer.

But yes the low density arrangement is quite nice, same old problem with the high back seating that you can't gauge how many empty seats there are at a glance so get slower loading times / unneeded standees. If the GW HSTs were of a similar layout they might be a bit better.

I'm no fan of the mega bright lighting that seems to be standard these days either.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

I will start with 2 questions:

How tall are you and what is your inside leg mesurement?

I am 6'1 3/4" with an inside leg of 34" and sitting on most Airline seats is a no go for me as I don't fit in them. FGW Refurb HST seats are the worst as my back don't fit the seat and my knees don't fit in the hole provided. 144 seats a little better comfort wise but too close together for me to even attempt to sit in there. 185's seats like concrete not half bad leg room (I know that ain't a refurb but meh) I am not saying this aimed at you as I don't know how tall you are but what really does get me mad is if someone fits into an airline seat and they say its comfy and loads of legroom and then if someone says there is no leg room they disbelieve them.

6'0 with inside leg 33".

I have not said every seat I have ever sat on is incredibly comfortable - as with everything in the world, some are better than others. What I am saying is I have never sat on a seat where there physically is not enough room to fit my legs in when i am sat correctly on the seat. As with everyone, I would like a little more legroom as then i can sit however i like to make myself as comfortable as possible. But i certainly cannot complain about what I already get.

The point i made about sitting in the seat correctly is perfectly valid. The problem is that we do not sit upright most of the time and it therefore feels strange and uncomfortable when we have to do it.

Just to set off a new argument, the Voyagers are, by far and away, the best when it comes to legroom and seat comfort.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I love the FGW HST refurb, think it's really classy, and first class is the best first class I've been on anywhere, it's fantastic.

Hate the NXEA Standard class refurb if you can call it that, the number of people who ask when the train is going to be refurbished is unreal, they don't realise it's already been done as it's so poor. First Class is okay as they did relatively little.

Also don't like the FSR 156's they seem to be cramped seating wise.

 

[turbo mick]

The 165/166 FGW Fleet at my home depot Reading are going to be refurbished going to take 84 weeks to do the whole fleet i was on Shed duties the other day and shunted 165109 into the old 4&5 road the unit wont be out for some time one of the power cars is at loughborough having fire damage repairs

 

[ailsa]

The point i made about sitting in the seat correctly is perfectly valid. The problem is that we do not sit upright most of the time and it therefore feels strange and uncomfortable when we have to do it.

Hmmm... clearly the problem is not that some trains do not have enough legroom, but that i do not know how to sit correctly. How wonderfully arrogant of you.

 

[devon_metro]

The 165/166 FGW Fleet at my home depot Reading are going to be refurbished going to take 84 weeks to do the whole fleet i was on Shed duties the other day and shunted 165109 into the old 4&5 road the unit wont be out for some time one of the power cars is at loughborough having fire damage repairs

Refurb = Paint everything light blue and put blue seat covers in basically

 

[Lampshade]

The point i made about sitting in the seat correctly is perfectly valid. The problem is that we do not sit upright most of the time and it therefore feels strange and uncomfortable when we have to do it.

Just to set off a new argument, the Voyagers are, by far and away, the best when it comes to legroom and seat comfort.

Have you ever travelled on an ex-Merseyrail 142 or a Northern 158/9 (the Trainbaby family)?

I'm only 5'10" but even I struggle with legroom on those units, even sitting bolt upright my knees are often right up against the seat in front.

Voyagers aren't bad really, but for intercity units they shouldn't be. Imagine Aberdeen - Penzance on one in standard class if it had the legroom of one of the aforementioned units. Pendolinos aren't that bad either. However, I think the 180s and 185s have it just right.

 

[Louise_T]

6'0 with inside leg 33".

I have not said every seat I have ever sat on is incredibly comfortable - as with everything in the world, some are better than others. What I am saying is I have never sat on a seat where there physically is not enough room to fit my legs in when i am sat correctly on the seat. As with everyone, I would like a little more legroom as then i can sit however i like to make myself as comfortable as possible. But i certainly cannot complain about what I already get.

The point i made about sitting in the seat correctly is perfectly valid. The problem is that we do not sit upright most of the time and it therefore feels strange and uncomfortable when we have to do it.

Just to set off a new argument, the Voyagers are, by far and away, the best when it comes to legroom and seat comfort.

Ah so your the person the leg room was designed around as you seem to fit in the area "perfectly" Now back in the real world people are all different shapes and sizes and 91107 said he is 5'10" and has issues traveling in the seats and he is shorter than both of us so please don't generalise using your measurements as the standard think of the poor buggers who are a different shape to you instead of yourself. BTW If a seat is too uncomfy to sit upright in it was is your first thought? mine is to try and get comfy congrats if you can sit in un =comfy seat. Once again don't make generalisations based on your comfort levels to those of us who have a bad back, bad hips and bad knees.

 

[asylumxl]

Ah so your the person the leg room was designed around as you seem to fit in the area "perfectly" Now back in the real world people are all different shapes and sizes and 91107 said he is 5'10" and has issues traveling in the seats and he is shorter than both of us so please don't generalise using your measurements as the standard think of the poor buggers who are a different shape to you instead of yourself. BTW If a seat is too uncomfy to sit upright in it was is your first thought? mine is to try and get comfy congrats if you can sit in un =comfy seat. Once again don't make generalisations based on your comfort levels to those of us who have a bad back, bad hips and bad knees.

I'm 6 2 and a bit, and I find the FGW HST seats very comfortable, provided I have my feet under the seat infront. I've used them heavilly for the last 2 years, and so far I've not come to dislike them.

I guess like beds, everyone likes different qualities in their ideal train seat.

 

[MCR247]

What about if everyone brought their own seat?

 

[Louise_T]

What about if everyone brought their own seat?

Are you kidding there would be lazyboys EVERYWHERE

 

[ailsa]

What about if everyone brought their own seat?

Sounds like a good idea for a class 325 railtour

 

[Louise_T]

Sounds like a good idea for a class 325 railtour

Nah just shove everyone in CAGES just like the mail

 

[Waddon]

I think the FGW HST refurbs are the Marmite of train travel - either love it or hate it, no middle ground (p.s. I hate it, although I love Marmite). Its not just the seats, its the ultra-bright carriage lighting that gets me.

 

[yorksrob]

Some of Northern's 158s are pretty bad, I travelled on 158909 a couple of months back and my knees were right up against the seat in front, talk about not catering for the high and mighty.

Really?

Whilst travelling on a traditional Pacer with bus seats is pretty rubbish, at least it's not llike sitting on a pile of bricks - which seems to be the effect that the Merseyside refurbishment seems to have been aiming for!

 

[bengley]

Chiltern did a great job with the 165s apart from the seats. They kept the original seats which leaves barely any leg room.

 

[Lampshade]

Really?

Whilst travelling on a traditional Pacer with bus seats is pretty rubbish, at least it's not llike sitting on a pile of bricks - which seems to be the effect that the Merseyside refurbishment seems to have been aiming for!

The newly refurbished 142s, 142040 in particular, are pretty good but still nowhere near the ex-ATN units (e.g. 142065). The ex-Merseyrail ones are quite possibly the worst trains operating on the network today though.

This is the Northern DMU heirarchy in my opinion:

158 > 156 > 155/153 > ATN 142 > 150/2 > 144 > Northern 142 > Bus > 150/1 > Walking > MR 142

 

[fgwrich]

Another missed contender for the Worst refurbishment jobs has to be the forgotton...

Southern & South Eastern Electrostars...

Personally i find Electrostars are bad enough...but who could forget Southern & South Easterns wonderfull liking of removing those 2+2 seats...and replacing them with those god awful 2+3 High backed c*ap - made worse on Southern by the low grade Sand paper Esk ' Astroturf ' Moquette...Something i unfortunatly had the plesure of this evening coming back from Brighton...

Though the worst part of that has to go to the (fword) Nightmare of a Rail Replacement service provided by TGM (Arriva) First we got lost going from Woking to Basingstoke, then the radiator had overheated and shut down, then the replacement coach was always 5 minutes away, Some Funny 5 F Minute that was at 45 Minutes! Then we were offerd the all shacks bus as a replacement but that would have bee full & standing...Eventually the replacement coach turns up ( arriva again) and gets massivly lost - so much so we ended up going down to Pirbright Barracks, Ash & Aldershot before finnaly getting the blackwater valley route to the M3!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know how frustating it was to see the 'All Shaks bus pass us on its way back to woking as we arrived in basingstoke

Not flaming Happy!!!

As for the Richmond seats, personnaly i dont mind them and even had 158747 on the Fareham to Brighton FGW service this morn...

And finnaly, ive got to agree with both 91107 & Louise_T on the legroom argument - im 5:9 and plays rugby...to top that ive now also ended up with tendonitus so my tendons in my left Knee are not always at there best - thus resulting in the fact ive got to keep my leg strecthed out half the time & so a train with decent enough legroom is fairly important to me...

 

[MCR247]

Electrostars aren't a refurb, therefore don't count

 

[Vulcan]

This is the Northern DMU heirarchy in my opinion:

158 > 156 > 155/153 > ATN 142 > 150/2 > 144 > Northern 142 > Bus > 150/1 > Walking > MR 142

You forgot to include the 180s although I suspect these would be up near the top. The mersyrail 142s arn't bad if you know where to sit. the sideways facing seats are probably the best ones.

 

[poshbakerloo]

This is the Northern DMU heirarchy in my opinion:

158 > 156 > 155/153 > ATN 142 > 150/2 > 144 > Northern 142 > Bus > 150/1 > Walking > MR 142

I would do it more like this...

180 > 158 > 156 > 155/153 > 144 > 150/2 > 150/1 > ATN 142 > Northern 142 > Walking > finger in the eye > shot in the foot > MR 142

 

[northwichcat]

And the manky old Ex Wales & West Carpets!!

What about the old FNW 156s that Northern have fitted purple seat covers but left the green worn-out carpets on the floor and brown carpets on the rear walls? (see http://www.northernrailways.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21&start=135 )

 

[poshbakerloo]

What about the old FNW 156s that Northern have put purple seat covers but left the green worn-out carpets on the floor and brown carpets on the walls? (see http://www.northernrailways.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=21&start=135 )

urg why can't they just do it properly! The 156s have so much potential so be amazing inside! They put in new seats with a nice cover, new lighting, new wall/ceiling panels, new carpet etc

 

[northwichcat]

I would do it more like this...

180 > 158 > 156 > 155/153 > 144 > 150/2 > 150/1 > ATN 142 > Northern 142 > Walking > finger in the eye > shot in the foot > MR 142

Shouldn't the 150s and 156s be spilt in the same way as 142s are? I find the ex-ATN 156s to lack leg room.

 

[Kneedown]

EMT 158's without a doubt.
Sub standard workmanship, poor and cramped interior layout, they come out less powerful than when they went in.

Should've gone to Wabtec. It might have cost a little more but they know what they are doing.

 

[387star]

substandard workmanship?

 

[TDK]

ATW 158's, all they did was replace the centre carpet run and called them refurbed

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Hmmm... clearly the problem is not that some trains do not have enough legroom, but that i do not know how to sit correctly. How wonderfully arrogant of you.

That would be what i am saying, yes. Try sitting on every seat you come across properly. You will notice how strange and uncomfortable it feels. You will also notice how much less space you take up.

As for being wonderfully arrogant, fair enough. If simple mathematics ain't your thing, I can't blame you for not understanding the concept.

This same argument will continue for as long as time exists. Personal space is very important to people. At the end of the day, modern public transport systems are designed to carry as many people as possible to a destination. As this is the case, there will always be a personal space issue. When I get on a train, i know what to expect - to be (hopefully) sat in a small space sharing my journey with an equally well built person that i may, or may not, know. I know that the space i will have available to me is the space that the seat takes up, and no more. This is exactly the same regardless of whether I am on a Merseyrail Pacer or a Grand Central Class 180.

The whole situation needs to be put into a little bit of perspective. What is the longest amount of time you would spend on a Merseyrail Pacer? 90 minutes? It would very rarely be more than that. What about a voyager from Bristol to Edinburgh? A good 5 or 6 hours? After a long journey on an intercity train, you would feel much the same as after a short journey on a commuter train, personal space wise.

As for legroom, could it be better? Definitely. Is it so bad that you physically cannot use a train, regardless of height? Definitely not.

 

[poshbakerloo]

EMT 158's without a doubt.
Sub standard workmanship, poor and cramped interior layout, they come out less powerful than when they went in.

That was one of the best refurbishments imo! Ok, the seats are a bit too hard but that is it, the whole train looks great inside and out...not too sure about the coming out less powerful thing tho?

 

[Failed Unit]

The whole situation needs to be put into a little bit of perspective. What is the longest amount of time you would spend on a Merseyrail Pacer? 90 minutes?

Lincoln - Meadowhall

As for legroom, could it be better? Definitely. Is it so bad that you physically cannot use a train, regardless of height? Definitely not.

I did move to another seat which had better leg room, but I found a seat in a 153 (Richmond) which no matter how I tried to cram myself in I couldn't do it without having my knees rammed into the seat in front. Yes I did try to follow the seats profile. It was the one closest to the toilet.
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That was one of the best refurbishments imo! Ok, the seats are a bit too hard but that is it, the whole train looks great inside and out...not too sure about the coming out less powerful thing tho?

I have heard a few comments about the engines could no longer pull the skin of a custard.

Once the refurbishment is done EMT will have standard interiors but they will still have 3 different engine types of one class, are they much better off? At least those dreadful Wessex sets will be tarted up inside!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Personally I'd prefer a slightly less refurbished 158 that works properly. The Scotrail ones have the lowest reliability and the aircon is a complete farce on them every summer.
.

I think you will find that the reason that Scotrails reliability is worse on the 8x Angel sets that are sub-leased from Northern and this is bringing the whole class down. (The ones that came from FGW - EMT have had loads of problems with the ex-FGW fleet as well probably something to do with the long period in storage).

The fully refurbished 158 (701 - 724) would match most fleets but probably not SWT's