Would an absolute back to basics car sell well today?

[m79900]

Even Dacias are getting quite posh these days, so there's no real bog standard car on the market. If a maker built a simple, boxy, practical car with bare steel wheels and crank windows, would people buy it? For example, if a small firm operating out of an industrial unit bought the rights to build say, a Vauxhall Cavalier mk2, and sold it as simple budget transport, I reckon some people would go for it. I know I would. I understand that modern safety and emissions regulations might be an issue, but they could probably find away around that, as long as they kept the business relatively small.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crank windows aren't cheaper than electric as the mechanism is much more complex than a small electric motor, a belt drive and some switches (and it's harder to fit the mechanism in with the modern requirement for side impact protection). Hub caps cost a couple of quid each (the Dacia budget models do have steel wheels and hub caps). Touchscreens are cheaper than physical controls (much as I hate them). Safety stuff (e.g. airbags) is mandatory. And nobody likes plastic seats, so fabric is a basic expectation.

Thus, the Dacia Sandero base model is basically what you're talking about. I think there was a Tata one as well but not sure if it made it to the UK, but it was basically the same thing. Or the Jogger if you want an estate-cum-MPV-type-thing.

As to price all cars have got silly-expensive, it's partly Brexit and partly cheap credit allowing manufacturers to profiteer (which I suspect won't continue with rates likely to stay around 5-6% as is normal longer term).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Crank windows aren't cheaper than electric as the mechanism is much more complex than a small electric motor, a belt drive and some switches (and it's harder to fit the mechanism in with the modern requirement for side impact protection). Hub caps cost a couple of quid each (the Dacia budget models do have steel wheels and hub caps). Touchscreens are cheaper than physical controls (much as I hate them). Safety stuff (e.g. airbags) is mandatory. And nobody likes plastic seats, so fabric is a basic expectation.

Thus, the Dacia Sandero base model is basically what you're talking about. I think there was a Tata one as well but not sure if it made it to the UK, but it was basically the same thing. Or the Jogger if you want an estate-cum-MPV-type-thing.

As to price all cars have got silly-expensive, it's partly Brexit and partly cheap credit allowing manufacturers to profiteer (which I suspect won't continue with rates likely to stay around 5-6% as is normal longer term).

My bold. Tempting - I am always out for an Estate car. And keeping it simple is always good for reliability. But progress has marched on. I was wary of electric windows but have never seen an electric window mechanism break (childhood memories of the winding handle jerking as the worn teeth jumped and having to pull the window up as I turned the handle.

Alternatively a camper van that has a layout conducive to load carrying and five seats. Eventually an ICE but with range would be nice. I wonder about an ICE version of the early VW campers - not for their looks/cult-appeal but because the rear underfloor engined version had a lot more usable space than later versions where the engine was moved to the front. I have been told that the early VW camper vans were the same length as a VW beetle for a reason (same underframe/layout). Not sure crash worthy-ness would be good enough by todays standards but the batteries all along the floor and/or under the rear bed area would be ideal. How big a market though ?.

I vaguely recall the VW beetle was borne out of the idea of a basic peoples car so its happened before.

EDIT

Of course expecting an absolute back to basics car to be a camper van is probably stretching things !.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My bold. Tempting - I am always out for an Estate car. And keeping it simple is always good for reliability.

I am very tempted by the petrol Jogger. Not tried one yet, though. I do need to get a test drive booked.

I do wish they'd do a nicer range of colours, though, I think it'd look good in red or blue, but there are just weird colours like a dull brown or green, or boring (but popular) grey.

Of course expecting an absolute back to basics car to be a camper van is probably stretching things !.

As is expecting it to have a VW badge! For a while Skoda was their budget brand, but that's gone upmarket too. At the moment if you want budget and new you want Dacia.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I am very tempted by the petrol Jogger. Not tried one yet, though. I do need to get a test drive booked.

I do wish they'd do a nicer range of colours, though, I think it'd look good in red or blue, but there are just weird colours like a dull brown or green, or boring (but popular) grey.

Oh yes grey. I am beginning to realise there is a risk that grey will eventually be common as muck. Easy to get second hand colour coordinated parts for though !.

Red - I have no strong feeling against except I have learnt red fades/decays so not good by the age I am buying !.

 

[m79900]

Crank windows aren't cheaper than electric as the mechanism is much more complex than a small electric motor, a belt drive and some switches (and it's harder to fit the mechanism in with the modern requirement for side impact protection). Hub caps cost a couple of quid each (the Dacia budget models do have steel wheels and hub caps). Touchscreens are cheaper than physical controls (much as I hate them). Safety stuff (e.g. airbags) is mandatory. And nobody likes plastic seats, so fabric is a basic expectation.

Thus, the Dacia Sandero base model is basically what you're talking about. I think there was a Tata one as well but not sure if it made it to the UK, but it was basically the same thing. Or the Jogger if you want an estate-cum-MPV-type-thing.

As to price all cars have got silly-expensive, it's partly Brexit and partly cheap credit allowing manufacturers to profiteer (which I suspect won't continue with rates likely to stay around 5-6% as is normal longer term).

But with all that electrical stuff on it, it's more likely to break, and that's another thing I should have mentioned. It should be simple to fix and not beep at you every time you're even remotely near an object. All electrics have a limited lifespan.

EDIT: If it's the case that crank windows are more expensive, why do the base spec models of some cars still use them?

 

[Herefordian]

Crank windows aren't cheaper than electric as the mechanism is much more complex than a small electric motor, a belt drive and some switches (and it's harder to fit the mechanism in with the modern requirement for side impact protection). Hub caps cost a couple of quid each (the Dacia budget models do have steel wheels and hub caps). Touchscreens are cheaper than physical controls (much as I hate them). Safety stuff (e.g. airbags) is mandatory. And nobody likes plastic seats, so fabric is a basic expectation.

Thus, the Dacia Sandero base model is basically what you're talking about. I think there was a Tata one as well but not sure if it made it to the UK, but it was basically the same thing. Or the Jogger if you want an estate-cum-MPV-type-thing.

As to price all cars have got silly-expensive, it's partly Brexit and partly cheap credit allowing manufacturers to profiteer (which I suspect won't continue with rates likely to stay around 5-6% as is normal longer term).

The Tata Nano wasn't sold in the UK.

Their larger Indica was, but as the rebadged CityRover.

As basic as a car could be, but very poorly priced at £6,350 for the entry level model.

I test drove one in 2005. At that price, it wasn't for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But with all that electrical stuff on it, it's more likely to break, and that's another thing I should have mentioned. It should be simple to fix and not beep at you every time you're even remotely near an object. All electrics have a limited lifespan.

You can strip a Series Land Rover in a field with a box of spanners. And you'll probably need to, too.

You don't need to strip a Toyota pick-up in the field because it just works.

Modern cars are hugely more reliable than older ones, even with the electronics, and will easily last the typical 10-15 years of a car's lifespan to scrap.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But with all that electrical stuff on it, it's more likely to break, and that's another thing I should have mentioned. It should be simple to fix and not beep at you every time you're even remotely near an object. All electrics have a limited lifespan.

Beep fatigue. I am learning to ignore the beeps in my stepsons car as they are hopelessly too sensitive where we drive.

My Mums car we think had lane assist. Took us ages of investigation whilst driving to narrow it down to road markings vs us going round parked cars. Very distracting.

And the electric indicators in my Vectra (rather than the mechanical lever on the steering wheel) are VERY infuriating. I still cancel them myself and end up indicating the other way. I have to look at the dash to see if they are still indicating as the position of the lever/arm is always at centre so feel does not work. I think they cancel too late for me. I hired a new (339 miles on the clock) van two weeks ago and it was utter joy being in total control of the indicators !.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

EDIT: If it's the case that crank windows are more expensive, why do the base spec models of some cars still use them?

Market differentiation?
I once read a book called Freakonomics (I think) that described how a computer chip manufacturer produced a 'base' version of one of its chips by disabling half the circuitry in its normal chip. It actually cost them slightly more to produce the 'basic' chip than the standard chip, but it sold for a lower price.
So it is entirely possible that the crank windows do cost more to make but it's a way of offering a budget version of the car while enticing those who really can't live with crank windows to trade up to the more expensively priced model with electric windows.

 

[m79900]

Okay, since it seems that such an offering would be nearly as expensive as a modern car, what about selling it as a vehicle for people who want old school motoring, but without the worry of damaging a classic car?

I may be being a bit daft and single minded with this idea, but it’s one I’ve had for a while, and I think it’d be good.

 

[Snow1964]

Even cars made to European safety spec tend to have lot of lucrative extras in UK market, UK market just doesn't get basic spec.

For instance can buy a basic, lowest spec Seat Ibiza for €14,450 (£12,316) list price in Spain

Fiat in Slovenia has basic spec Panda list price €14,490 (£12,350)

Dacia will sell you a basic Sandero for €11,990 (£10,220) list price in France

configurador

www.seat.es

Konfigurator | Fiat

configurator.importers.fiat.com

Sandero

Découvrez Dacia Sandero, la citadine Dacia : son prix, son nouveau design, ses équipements, ses motorisations et les 2241 avis clients. Configurez ou réservez un essai.

www.dacia.fr

So realistically could have choice of cars with all the safety spec for under £12,500 in UK, but instead we get limited to higher spec versions

 

[jfollows]

Market differentiation?
I once read a book called Freakonomics (I think) that described how a computer chip manufacturer produced a 'base' version of one of its chips by disabling half the circuitry in its normal chip. It actually cost them slightly more to produce the 'basic' chip than the standard chip, but it sold for a lower price.
So it is entirely possible that the crank windows do cost more to make but it's a way of offering a budget version of the car while enticing those who really can't live with crank windows to trade up to the more expensively priced model with electric windows.

That opens up a whole off-topic discussion, but to put it very concisely, when IBM came out with the POWER4 dual-core processor in 2000 it sold those chips on which one of the cores failed also, initially on the basis of greater memory bandwidth per chip, but for a lower price. Now it and similar manufacturers like Intel make many-core processors in which they (a) sell different versions at different prices based on the actual number of processor cores that work and (b) on fully-functioning chips, disable many of the cores through software/microcode and enable them if the customer pays extra.

 

[Peter Sarf]

So there is a risk that the UK market "expects" more in the way of higher spec than Europe does. Pity they have the steering wheel on the other side !.

I realise the reason my cars last longer nowadays is because they do not rust away so fast. So I get my basic spec (well high but out of date spec) by buying circa 15+ years old. I don't worry about fuel economy too much as my annual mileage is not high (I walk but now also have an over 60s bus pass). I get minimal depreciation. So how to translate that into a new car ?.

Or perhaps there is a market for taking good solid models if they exist in large numbers and re-engineering them to modern emissions standards or maybe just maybe to EV. Should we be looking at recycling older vehicles more rather than just melting them down ?. I guess it is too tempting to start from scratch.

But all I want is a functional, reliable car. I will then buy it 15 years down the line. So it has to be attractive as a new car for someone else to by it new. They then sell it to me later !.

 

[John Luxton]

I have been driving Fords since 1996 having been a BL/Rover Metro user prior. In that year I switched to the KA - I liked its then futuristic styling and the availability of air con and power windows. Had five of them most top of the range models which were quite reasonably priced. However, a move to a house with a bigger parking space led me to upgrade to a Fiesta in 2008 and I am also now on the fifth one of those. My last upgrade was in 2018 and was almost at the limit of what I was prepared to pay at nearly £17,000 with a few extras. Moving to the bigger Fiesta turned out to be a good move as in 2014 my mother became disabled and the extra case for a wheelchair was welcome.

However, with my mother passing away in early 2020 I could easily downsize.

Now the Fiesta has been discontinued. My regular dealer who does my servicing has tried to persuade me to try a Puma "Its only a Fiesta on steroids" - but it isn't its an SUV. I need a smaller car not a bigger one.

If I could buy a brand new Ford KA to the original design (I didn't like the two later redesigns - Polish and Indian) I would be there like a shot.

I need a car which is reliable, easy to obtain parts if necessary, not that I have really needed many has a decent radio / CD / USB player and perhaps a built in SatNav - but not essential.

But the small car options seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

Most manufacturers just seem to be going for bigger and bigger options. Rather disappointing really.

John

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So there is a risk that the UK market "expects" more in the way of higher spec than Europe does. Pity they have the steering wheel on the other side !.

The trick to play should you desire a RHD car of the basic spec that is only offered for sale on the continent, is to buy it Malta or Cyprus. You will of course have the subsequent problem of getting the car back home, so Malta would be the better option due to the much shorter journey through Italy and France. Getting a car home from Cyprus via Greece, the Balkans and much of Central Europe would be quite the task! Though the idea of getting a combination of trains and ferries down to Malta and driving back does sound like it would be a fun adventure.

I'm currently in the market for a (pre-owned) car which will be my first in 15 years. Having browsed Auto Trader a fair bit I've come to the conclusion that I may have to compromise on some of my "old school" preferences. For example I quite like the look of Renault Meganes from around 2008-2012 (not sure of the exact years that generation was available, but it's the one that came after those hideous ones whose main selling point was that it had a bum!) but all of these seem to have a digital speedometer- something that feels like something you get on 90s-era computer games, not real cars. I'd also consider a Vauxhall Astra or Insignia of a similar age but these have the same "feature".
Though if I was to end up with one of those, I'd probably get used to the digital speedo quite quickly. It just feels somewhat "alien" to me at the moment. Truth be told, I'm more sure of what I don't want than what I do!

 

[Snow1964]

The way I see it, is the higher the spec, the more equipment is fitted which might break down.

As for older cars, models introduced from about 12-15 years ago tend to be multiplex wiring, and euro6 emissions equipment has added lot more complication.

Still annoying that cars from multiple manufacturers are available below £12,500 in Europe, but we have to pay more as bottom spec is rarely available in UK.

 

[Cloud Strife]

But the small car options seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

Maybe a VW Up! would do the job? It's a brilliant, reliable little car, although I'd personally recommend the Toyota Aygo over it. I've driven around 3 door Aygo for two weeks in Spain and it was a pleasure in so many ways.

Still annoying that cars from multiple manufacturers are available below £12,500 in Europe, but we have to pay more as bottom spec is rarely available in UK.

Couldn't you get one from Ireland? I believe they have rather lower specs because of the horrendous VRT system of taxation. But without the VRT, they're likely to be a lot cheaper than the base version in the UK.

 

[John Luxton]

Maybe a VW Up! would do the job? It's a brilliant, reliable little car, although I'd personally recommend the Toyota Aygo over it. I've driven around 3 door Aygo for two weeks in Spain and it was a pleasure in so many ways.



Couldn't you get one from Ireland? I believe they have rather lower specs because of the horrendous VRT system of taxation. But without the VRT, they're likely to be a lot cheaper than the base version in the UK.

I thought the UP! was discontinued along with its Skoda and Seat versions? I have been considering an Aygo actually and I know someone who has two Toyotas and swears by them. Only sad thing is I would have to leave my long standing Ford dealership a family owned business one of the few that isn't now part of a "big-boy" chain. Had dealings with the big chains in my BL/Rover days and they hurt the wallet.

 

[skyhigh]

I thought the UP! was discontinued along with its Skoda and Seat versions?

No, it's still on sale.

 

[stuu]

I'm currently in the market for a (pre-owned) car which will be my first in 15 years. Having browsed Auto Trader a fair bit I've come to the conclusion that I may have to compromise on some of my "old school" preferences. For example I quite like the look of Renault Meganes from around 2008-2012 (not sure of the exact years that generation was available, but it's the one that came after those hideous ones whose main selling point was that it had a bum!) but all of these seem to have a digital speedometer- something that feels like something you get on 90s-era computer games, not real cars. I'd also consider a Vauxhall Astra or Insignia of a similar age but these have the same "feature".

Avoid the Renault at all costs. I had one of that era and it cost me a fortune, with the electrics being an absolute disaster. The people who dealt with it said it was very common to see them come in with the same problems.

The absolute dumbest thing was there was a key to use if the remote stopped working, which could unlock the car but couldn't lock it again. I cannot begin to fathom what went through the mind of the person who thought that was a good idea

 

[Russ_H]

...but all of these seem to have a digital speedometer- something that feels like something you get on 90s-era computer games, not real cars. I'd also consider a Vauxhall Astra or Insignia of a similar age but these have the same "feature".
Though if I was to end up with one of those, I'd probably get used to the digital speedo quite quickly. It just feels somewhat "alien" to me at the moment. Truth be told, I'm more sure of what I don't want than what I do!

I didn't think my first message to a rail forum would be about cars, but your observations about digital speedometers caught my eye. My current car is an Astra, and its predecessor was an Insignia - both have been manual, two-litre turbodiesels. These cars have each had digital speedometers, in addition to the normal needle display. I didn't think I'd like the digital readouts, but they are excellent. They have both been reliable cars. However, I would caution you strongly to avoid the Vauxhall electronic handbrake found on the Insignia - a very poor implementation of a good idea.

PS I've just noticed that I joined this forum on 2 September 2016 - I had no idea it was that long ago.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Avoid the Renault at all costs. I had one of that era and it cost me a fortune, with the electrics being an absolute disaster. The people who dealt with it said it was very common to see them come in with the same problems.

The absolute dumbest thing was there was a key to use if the remote stopped working, which could unlock the car but couldn't lock it again. I cannot begin to fathom what went through the mind of the person who thought that was a good idea

Thanks for the warning! My very first car was a Renault 5 and it was fantastic, so perhaps I've some unjustified brand loyalty towards the manufacturer.

I didn't think my first message to a rail forum would be about cars, but your observations about digital speedometers caught my eye. My current car is an Astra, and its predecessor was an Insignia - both have been manual, two-litre turbodiesels. These cars have each had digital speedometers, in addition to the normal needle display. I didn't think I'd like the digital readouts, but they are excellent. They have both been reliable cars. However, I would caution you strongly to avoid the Vauxhall electronic handbrake found on the Insignia - a very poor implementation of a good idea.

PS I've just noticed that I joined this forum on 2 September 2016 - I had no idea it was that long ago.

Some of the cars I've seen online with digital speedos didn't appear to have an analogue needle in addition. If both are provided that's less of a deal-breaker. Electronic handbrakes are another modern feature I'm not overly familiar with, having not driven for several years. It isn't something I'm particularly keen on the idea of, but could well be another thing I'd get used to in no time at all once I encountered it. Bringing us back on topic, I am somewhat skeptical of things like electronic handbrakes and digital dashboards- and if one of the auto-makers offered an "unplugged" version with the good old reliable mechanical bits I'd probably be first in line... but I'm also quite aware that my stance on this is driven by fear of the unknown. To be honest having been off the road for so long (out of choice) the biggest obstacle might be my lack of no-claims for insurance... though in my defence I haven't had any claims against me either for obvious reasons!

Welcome (back, technically) to the forum, by the way. You've done well to remember your password after five seven* years!

*=brain-fart.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The trick to play should you desire a RHD car of the basic spec that is only offered for sale on the continent, is to buy it Malta or Cyprus. You will of course have the subsequent problem of getting the car back home, so Malta would be the better option due to the much shorter journey through Italy and France. Getting a car home from Cyprus via Greece, the Balkans and much of Central Europe would be quite the task! Though the idea of getting a combination of trains and ferries down to Malta and driving back does sound like it would be a fun adventure.

I'm currently in the market for a (pre-owned) car which will be my first in 15 years. Having browsed Auto Trader a fair bit I've come to the conclusion that I may have to compromise on some of my "old school" preferences. For example I quite like the look of Renault Meganes from around 2008-2012 (not sure of the exact years that generation was available, but it's the one that came after those hideous ones whose main selling point was that it had a bum!) but all of these seem to have a digital speedometer- something that feels like something you get on 90s-era computer games, not real cars. I'd also consider a Vauxhall Astra or Insignia of a similar age but these have the same "feature".
Though if I was to end up with one of those, I'd probably get used to the digital speedo quite quickly. It just feels somewhat "alien" to me at the moment. Truth be told, I'm more sure of what I don't want than what I do!

Another feature to avoid is the electronic indicators - I find them absolutely infuriating and just cannot get used to them.

I didn't think my first message to a rail forum would be about cars, but your observations about digital speedometers caught my eye. My current car is an Astra, and its predecessor was an Insignia - both have been manual, two-litre turbodiesels. These cars have each had digital speedometers, in addition to the normal needle display. I didn't think I'd like the digital readouts, but they are excellent. They have both been reliable cars. However, I would caution you strongly to avoid the Vauxhall electronic handbrake found on the Insignia - a very poor implementation of a good idea.

PS I've just noticed that I joined this forum on 2 September 2016 - I had no idea it was that long ago.

Yes. Welcome (belatedly) to the forum.

 

[DelW]

Okay, since it seems that such an offering would be nearly as expensive as a modern car, what about selling it as a vehicle for people who want old school motoring, but without the worry of damaging a classic car?

I may be being a bit daft and single minded with this idea, but it’s one I’ve had for a while, and I think it’d be good.

There are companies in that sort of market, but the problem is that their products are much more expensive than mass produced rivals.

In order to avoid the huge costs of type approval (mandatory crash testing etc.), they can only be built in small numbers, which means effectively hand built, and that's expensive.

As an example, Pembleton make small numbers of a simple light car, but prices start around £40k for the four wheel version. I'm sure they're high quality and great fun, but there is stiff competition from established marques at that price.

If your hypothetical mk2 Cavalier reboot had that sort of price tag, or anywhere near it, I don't think you'd find many buyers.

 

[jon0844]

These days car makers often only get 5 star safety ratings through the use of sensors (examples include automatic braking and lane keep assist), which costs money. A true bare bones vehicle would likely get a terrible rating and not be popular as a result.

A vehicle like the Citroën Ami doesn't have such issues as it isn't technically a car, but does have a limited speed, but is perhaps the ideal car for short commutes and the like - the Fiat version arguably looking even nicer, but pricier. Second hand ones are very cheap and as long as you wouldn't be using 50, 60 or 70mph roads (and they're not allowed on motorways at all) then you'd probably find it cheap to buy and even cheaper to run. They look like great fun, and certainly are basic.

 

[AidanCKY]

They're made, the Toyota Aygo / Citroen C1 / Peugeot 108 are very simple cars but good.

Sadly most buyers are buying terrible bland crossover type cars and cheap hatchbacks are dying out.

 

[cav1975]

The Tata Nano was a very basic car. It flopped in its home, India, market as nobody wanted to be seen in such a basic brand new car when they could get a much higher status used car for the same money. I suspect something similar would happen here.

A few years ago at work one if our managers needed a car to use as an engineering test bed. It was decided to order the absolute base version of the chosen model with no optional extras at all. It took ages to come having been made to special order. There were plenty of base plus a few options cars available but not the true base model as there wasn’t any demand. Similarly when it came to sell the car after the test work was complete, it was very difficult to find a buyer.

I think that the moral of the story is that people buy cars for more than just A to B transport.

 

[m79900]

They're made, the Toyota Aygo / Citroen C1 / Peugeot 108 are very simple cars but good.

Sadly most buyers are buying terrible bland crossover type cars and cheap hatchbacks are dying out.

C1 and 108 discontinued, Aygo turned into an SUV inspired dustbin.

 

[AidanCKY]

C1 and 108 discontinued, Aygo turned into an SUV inspired dustbin.

I was going to mention the discontinued variants, and I forgot they did that to the Aygo.
The car market has become so depressing.

Hatchbacks and estates are dying out because everyone wants a jacked up pretend SUV

The Tata Nano was a very basic car. It flopped in its home, India, market as nobody wanted to be seen in such a basic brand new car when they could get a much higher status used car for the same money. I suspect something similar would happen here.

A few years ago at work one if our managers needed a car to use as an engineering test bed. It was decided to order the absolute base version of the chosen model with no optional extras at all. It took ages to come having been made to special order. There were plenty of base plus a few options cars available but not the true base model as there wasn’t any demand. Similarly when it came to sell the car after the test work was complete, it was very difficult to find a buyer.

I think that the moral of the story is that people buy cars for more than just A to B transport.

They were crap as well though, thats part of the issue. There's simple cars and then there's terrible simple cars.