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Would an absolute back to basics car sell well today?
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TheSmiths82
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I only have the MPI engine would running a fuel treatment help with that issue?
John Luxton
Established Member
I am really after something new. Last used car I had was my second car a 10 month old MG Metro back in 1984. It had been hammered and put me off used cars for life as the next 5 years it probably clocked up more in repairs bills than the purchase price of £4,200!
Those fuel additives are pure snake oil.
I don't quite understand what you mean by this.
My current car is on PCP and the option to buy fee at the end is £16000. Cars of the same age and mileage are selling for under £12000. The car is in perfect condition and within the mileage agreed. So I'm free to hand the car back without paying a penny, and if I want the same car again go and buy an identical one for £4k less.
Whereas if I'd bought the car outright, I'd have lost out? So isn't that a benefit of PCP if values don't hold up?
TheSmiths82
Member
A Dacia Sandero is well worth a look too, at around £15k. Much more expensive than the earlier Sandero's but the build quality looks better. I think even now the mid spec Fabias still have proper switches, and a manual handbrake etc. The only thing the touch screen for is for the entertainment and some wiper/light behaviour settings that you rarely need to touch.
I really hope Skoda continue making these sorts of cars otherwise I might have to keep my Fabia for a lot longer.
You decide to hand back the car, give back the keys and pay nothing, you choose to finance another PCP on another new car, you need to offer a down payment of several thousand £, how will you supply the down payment? , ideally the dealer will offer you £4000 over the guaranteed minimum value for the car giving you £4000 to fund the new PCP down payment, but the GMV is way out, the situation is one of car-less and zero equity
Going back maybe 15 years the lease price on a VW Passat or even Audi A4 was less than a Skoda Octavia because of the lower difference between the (trade) new price and the resale / auction price.
Only you know the figures. If instead of paying the PCP each month for 'y' years you had bought outright then at the time the PCP would have ended sell the car at £1000 less than the typical selling window price to a small trader who would put on their forecourt would you have gained or lost? Right now PCP could be cheaper due to the hiked prices of new while used cars are now slowly falling back from the recent peak prices but when I did the maths 5 years ago buying was clearly the winner. The result of the comparison of course will be different for a traditional bank loan / hire purchase against the loss of interest by using your savings.
Overall what I despise is what once was a reasonable cheap routine replacement / reconditioned service exchange is now expensive partly due to the amount of disassembly & reassembly to access e.g. water pump, alternator, wiper motor/mechanism, interior fan, even fan speed control module. Cam belts are another - even at an independent specialist for VAG £400+ every 5 years / 60k miles while for the Ford Ecoboost at 10 years £1000+ as special tools required and so much work
Another EcoBoost having its wet belt replaced just in time!
The Ford 1.0 EcoBoost engine fitted to the Fiesta, Focus and B Max is ran by a wet belt and Ford recommend it should be replaced at 150,000 miles or 10 years.www.aaronsautos.co.uk
Wetbelt strip down process
Remove coil packs, fuel rail and rocker cover
Remove AC compressor, AC pipes, alternator and catalytic converter
Drain engine oil, drain coolant, remove drive shaft, starter motor and sump
Remove water pump and aux belt tensioner
Rotate engine to TDC and fit crank timing tools and flywheel locking tool
Fit camshaft timing tools
Remove crank pulley using a Torque Multiplier
Remove front engine cover
Remove wetbelt, oil pump belt and oil pump and inspect
Then the reassembly with new seals, washers etc.
All this to replace a belt
For control a touch screen is lower cost than a bank of switches then solid state cheaper than traditional relays. Modules can be coded to the car so another from a breakers will not just plug in and work. Except for remote locking and the immobiliser why not make them all the same ?
Maybe someone can confirm but given the fitment of antilock brakes, collision avoidance, hill-hold control etc exist I suspect an electronic handbrake is almost zero cost against the handle, cable and direct actuation of the brake pads / shoes.
Keeping / reverting to the traditional systems links to this thread
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/premium-car-features-you-would-pay-extra-not-to-have.246726/
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It's very unusual for a car to be worth less than the GFV at the end of a PCP. The finance companies aren't stupid and don't want to be left with liabilities. That's why it's often more expensive to lease/PCP an unpopular cheap car than a popular more expensive vehicle, the GFV on the unpopular model will be 30% of new rather than 60%, for example.
If you want to hand the car back then you're fine. Most people would likely want a new car, and to use some of the equity as a deposit. Looking at some of the deals advertised right now, they all appear to want eyewatering deposits up front in return for a reasonable interest rate/terms.
If you were keeping the same car then why not use HP? The value isn't relevant if you were intending to keep it long-term.
I would certainly not wish to go through the hassle of changing to exactly the same car on a new agreement . In my case, when I used PCP and liked the car I'd bought (and had bought with a lot of extras added on), I opted to pay the settlement fee and kept the car - but I doubt most people do that.
Without seeing it, I have visions of them talking about the good old days and wanting a return to solid British-made cars that we could sell to the Empire!
John Luxton
Established Member
When PCPs first came out my then BL/MG Rover dealer tried to persuade me to but the then new Rover 200 hatchback on a PCP was 1996/7. The maths just didn't work out right and I couldn't see the logic in paying out for a car I would never own. I walked away and decided to switch to Ford.
Back in 2015 a friend of mine bought a Fiesta from Ford on PCP rather than finance. I warned him not to do it as he would either have to hand over the car or fund the final payment. He thought he could just had back the car and get another. He then discovered that was not the case. Ended up paying the final payment as a lump sum out of his savings. I had also bought a new Ford Fiesta around the same time. But I always have a rule, put down enough in cash and p/x to to create a sizeable deposit and never pay more than £200 on regular finance. My car was fully paid for with no sting in the tail
PCPs just delay the inevitable.
Many people seem to use PCPs to get big cars they would not normally be able to afford. I read some years back the that the grown in demand for big SUVs and 4x4s was being driven by PCPs and not cash or regular finance buyers.
I Have noted on some TV ads there is sometime some small print for manufacturer ads which now state briefly "There is No Purchase Option"
In recent years there have been accusations that the "New World Order" want people to own nothing but be happy! - Certainly is taking off with cars and I don't want to be part of it!
I don't think it's some NWO conspiracy with one person overseeing these changes (Bill Gates, George Soros or whoever they're after today), but capitalism is absolutely trying to get people to have everything 'as a service', such that you never actually own anything. Whether that's media you buy online that can be removed later as the license is withdrawn, or a laptop you can't repair because the manufacturer ties parts to a specific machine and only the manufacturer can do a repair and do the necessary pairing (I'm talking about Apple here, but don't think for one second the others won't copy) - and at some point in time, the manufacturer will simply stop offering to repair that product - so you'll have to bin it. No chance of a MacBook from this era turning up on a BBC Show in 20 years as someone tinkers around with a soldering iron to restore it to its former beauty.
Cars will become the same if we let them do it. Right to Repair is now a big issue worldwide and the lobbying money from multiple industries to stop it happening is immense. I think the EU seems to be taking it seriously, and some states in the USA, and we still have some protections when it comes to cars and other products here, but we can't become complacent.
Car subscriptions are going to be pushed more and more, and people will work hard to convince the public that there's no need to pay outright for some crazy oversized SUV you don't need (but is very profitable for the car maker), just pay £xxx for life.
As such the demand for small cars falls, because there aren't really any left.
This is why China will flood the market with cheaper, smaller, cars and the industry is already fearing this to the point where it is spreading scare stories about Chinese cars being remotely killed by the Chinese government. These will be the closest many will get to a 'back to basics' car in the future.
Howardh
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If anyone wants a back-to-basics car my Hyundai i10 is up for grabs! Bought it "second hand" for under £8k, from a dealer and it had a whole 9 miles on it. Radio was only FM/AM, but it had air-con. That's all, and it's been a loyal servant for the last 8 years and 20,000 miles, peanuts tax-wise and still to fail an MOT.
Actually, it's not up for grabs, I'm keeping it despite hating it's colour!!
Actually, it's not up for grabs, I'm keeping it despite hating it's colour!!
Back to basics car will never bee offered in the UK.
Britain is seen as premium car market where we see cars as a status symbols and will spend accordingly and shun cheap versions. For years manufacturers have offered cheaper lower spec vehicles in mainland Europe but not here. Class example is the Renault twinge, this was a cheap as chips car. When the Twingo was offered eventually in the UK it was no where near the base model.
Britain is seen as premium car market where we see cars as a status symbols and will spend accordingly and shun cheap versions. For years manufacturers have offered cheaper lower spec vehicles in mainland Europe but not here. Class example is the Renault twinge, this was a cheap as chips car. When the Twingo was offered eventually in the UK it was no where near the base model.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Another example of paying monthly for something I prefer to own outright is mobile phones. I come across many people who have an expensive contract and change their mobile every 2 years or so. They say they cannot afford to buy the phone they have but are paying £40, in some cases £60, per month !. It really is a way to keep people trapped into over priced products - don't let them save enough to buy outright.
Interesting that people think this will happen with cars and of course it can. A car costs a more to buy outright than a mobile so people are more likely to go for the "easy monthly payments". If this is making people commit to larger cars like SUVs then when the bubble bursts there will be no small cheap cars new and plenty of bigger cars for me to buy secondhand and because they were owned/run on a PCP they might be well serviced (fingers crossed).
As for right to repair. It was getting tricky with my 2006 Vectra. Needed to buy the unlock code for my 2006 Vectra from Vauxhalls and then needed the code for any donor car's parts.
Interesting that people think this will happen with cars and of course it can. A car costs a more to buy outright than a mobile so people are more likely to go for the "easy monthly payments". If this is making people commit to larger cars like SUVs then when the bubble bursts there will be no small cheap cars new and plenty of bigger cars for me to buy secondhand and because they were owned/run on a PCP they might be well serviced (fingers crossed).
As for right to repair. It was getting tricky with my 2006 Vectra. Needed to buy the unlock code for my 2006 Vectra from Vauxhalls and then needed the code for any donor car's parts.
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Most networks now offer a contract which allows early upgrades, to just keep that contract going forever.
It certainly seems possible for the car industry to introduce a car subscription service and do the same. For now it's prestige marques like Volvo doing it, but no reason it can't become more mainstream. £300, £400, £500 a month forever. Everything included, just pay for fuel/charging. Sound tempting?
It certainly seems possible for the car industry to introduce a car subscription service and do the same. For now it's prestige marques like Volvo doing it, but no reason it can't become more mainstream. £300, £400, £500 a month forever. Everything included, just pay for fuel/charging. Sound tempting?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
The temptation could be that the car industry carries the can for reliability. But at a price.
And I will cling onto buying roughly ten year old make+model of cars that have already proven reliable - except when I chose the wrong example !. My mistakes have never cost me more than a years depreciation on a brand new car.
In terms of back to basics this usually means I am buying a second hand car with a good (for its age) specification because any one who can afford the top of the range car new probably does not skimp on maintenance.
EVs are going to be very reliable, so car makers can likely easily give a longer warranty or offer to cover all maintenance for the duration of your rental. That could mean cheaper rentals on older cars, although I do think a lot of people will want to keep a nearly new car and will keep changing (but the rentals aren't fixed rate, so there are charges to change vehicle and costs are based on the value of the car - so we'll see how it all pans out in time).
I think car subscriptions, either the whole car or aspects of the car, are going to come because there simply won't be enough push-back. BMW and the like have been clever in that they've started the ball rolling with things that a car owner can perhaps accept, even see as a benefit, some of these charges. Heated seats? Well, if it's only really cold for a few months, why not? A bit of extra BHP unlocked (remember, these things affect newer ICE cars too)? Fine for that holiday, but not needed at home.
Start with things people can convince themselves are nice upgrades, but not an actual extra cost per se, and they'll then get bored of the discussions by the time you are having to pay for basic functions. I can't imagine safety features being chargeable extras, but what about climate control or access to navigation tools (including Android Auto/Car Play)?
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Plenty of scope for it to creep up on motorists who want something nice and better and better. Wonder what will happen to those cars second hand ? - Scrapped to stop cheap skates like me showing the punters up I fear.
Vespa
Established Member
I have recently brought a Dacia Duster, it's a top of the range spec, that said they're using proven old Renault technology which is no bad thing in its own right as all the kinks and issues have been resolved.
Dacia used to be a very cheap car to buy and I spoke to the dealer about why Dacia changed to a higher spec, he said it's because buyers have raised their expectations with the corresponding price increase, my Duster is 1 year old which I I brought at £15,000 2 months ago, now the 2023 facelift top of the range model is £7,000 more, I most definitely dodged the bullet there.
I would have been happy with just cruise control and air conditioning in a base model car.
I did suggest why not have two separate production lines for the mark one Duster and Mark two Duster with the prices to match, they were very good value, now they risk pricing themselves put of the budget market and going the way of Skoda and Seat.
We need a new player prepared to sell a basic cheap car for not a lot of money.
Dacia used to be a very cheap car to buy and I spoke to the dealer about why Dacia changed to a higher spec, he said it's because buyers have raised their expectations with the corresponding price increase, my Duster is 1 year old which I I brought at £15,000 2 months ago, now the 2023 facelift top of the range model is £7,000 more, I most definitely dodged the bullet there.
I would have been happy with just cruise control and air conditioning in a base model car.
I did suggest why not have two separate production lines for the mark one Duster and Mark two Duster with the prices to match, they were very good value, now they risk pricing themselves put of the budget market and going the way of Skoda and Seat.
We need a new player prepared to sell a basic cheap car for not a lot of money.
My previous car was a 5 door Peugeot 107, I'd happily buy another and regret trading it in.
The 'EU' rules now mandating various safety features, lane guidance, speed assistance, collision avoidance etc have meant that Dacia have switched to the newer Renault\Nissan platforms rather then spend the extra money to reverse engineering these required features into the older generation platforms they used to use.
Let's assume a cheap city car EV has a battery that can do 100,000-300,000 miles. If you're doing 5,000-10,000 miles a year, that car is going to last a LONG time. A service for an EV might cost you £80 or so, and of course you need to look after the tyres and suspension.
It's clear that they're going to have to find ways to stop that car lasting that long! And even after hundreds of thousands of miles, the battery might still be at 70% or something and good for another number of years.. So, yes, the car industry will be finding ways to kill off these cars prematurely.
The length of time someone chooses to own a car may well increase loads with an EV. I am sure a lot of ICE owners sell a car once things start going wrong that will cost a LOT of money to repair, so they cut their losses. Some lease a car for three years so they won't even need to risk the first MOT!
Besides those who need to have a new car, with the latest registration plate, the car industry stands to lose a lot of money if people end up buying a 3-4 year old EV and keeping it for 15 years relatively hassle-free.
Ford has stopped making certain vehicles because it can't make a profit, so if I heard Ford telling me that I don't want a cheap Fiesta but rather a more expensive Puma/Kuga etc, I'd know that not to be true.
As such, when people say nobody wants a cheap, basic, car there might be SOME truth in that (and, yes, some people have been talked into buying a SUV for a perceived higher level of safety) but a lot of it is that the car makers want to make more profit, and if they're going to do so they will need to offer some incentives. A lot of the tech in a car really isn't going to be that expensive, but it has a perceived value.
Naturally, if Ford and others find a way to compete with the Chinese on small, more basic, cars you can be assured they'll do it again. Small cars in Europe, and especially the UK, were once top of the charts. Did everyone decide to buy an SUV or were they forced to?
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Where do you buy your cars from?
I don't want to buy a car which is being sold because it has a known problem. With a 10 year old car, there is quite a good chance that the ones that are being sold, do have a problem. I definitely want it to have been properly maintained.
I have owned 7 cars. Two have been bad buys. I got one from classified adverts from a local paper. It was a 14 year old heap of a Mini. I don't want to do that again as it had lots of problems. One was just under 3 years old, from a non-franchise dealer. I was really lucky, and it failed during a 3 month warranty. It gave me a load of hassle, but I got away without having to spend loads of repairs. Still I traded it in after a year for quite a bit less than I paid. Its the only car that I have sold onto another buyer since 1988. I've driven the 3 others have been scrapped.
Of the rest, three were from relatives, with good reasons for selling them. One was brand new, when a personal import from Belgium was the same price as buying a 2 year old UK model. The other was just under 3 years old from a Ford dealer, but with a decent warranty, it has been fine.
I’m not saying it’s perfect but you can repair current generation iPhones and MacBooks yourself:
Apple launches Self Service Repair in Europe
Customers in Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Spain, Sweden, and the UK can purchase genuine Apple parts and tools.
www.apple.com
Peter Sarf
Established Member
I have bought all my cars second hand;
A couple from relatives in the early days of motoring,
One from a small dealer (paid a bit over my expected but it was a nice example),
Some private with good reason for sale (one sadly on behalf of a driver going senile).
None from a franchised dealer probably because I buy too old.
I always look for the service history except for one that was a bargain and I should have ignored it (but it kind of owes me very little as not the most expensive to repair).
All scrapped (generally not expected to pass MOT) except for;
One written off - A Ford Mk3 Escort. I bought the wreck for the garage to repair and sell on, I would have kept it but I had just bought a house in Croydon and realised I could manage without and would wait to see how mortgage and interest rates left me. Longest I went without a car and it was a nuisance.
My last Carlton sits awaiting a decision - it needs a reasonably large job done (circa £600) but as the car is 20 years old and fairly rare from new the parts for it generally are getting hard to get. Nail in the Coffin is ULEZ although its replacement needs to go as its eating money.
Some were basic models. The Carltons were/are top of the range but minus air-conditiioning (engine only 2.0l, not 3.0l). Latest and newest (Vectra) is quite high spec with weak aircon which I don't try to use. Fuel economy for me is not too important as I do less than 5k miles pa.
In terms of basic I would like a VW campervan rear engined circa 1987 onwards (or whenever it was they started galvanising the body). They are far far easier to work on than newer VW camper vans, have less to go wrong, have more room and are very common so most parts are still made. Just waiting for one to fall into my lap - yeah too fashionable to be cheap even though basic !.
How do you have a Vauxhall Carlton that is 20 years old? They stopped making them in the mid 90s.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Brain failure - took me a while to figure !. Its L/1993 so 30 years !. Was 20 years old when I bought it and it has been a soo reliable so now I am spoilt.
Depending on the model and condition given that the Carlton was a fairly rare car anyway, it may be worth a bit of money these days as it’s beginning to head into classic territory.
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