Would an absolute back to basics car sell well today?

[joebassman]

When I think back to my first car, a mk1 Fiesta 1.1L, and compare it to what I'm currently driving, there is no way I'd go back to a "basics car". At the time, my Fiesta wasn't even the base model, but it lacked facilities that we would consider essential today - an intermittent wiper setting and an electric windscreen washer, for example; in the latter case, there was a manual pump just to the left of the clutch pedal (and on frosty mornings I could physically feel the crunch of the ice in the system)!

I currently drive a 2017 Vauxhall Meriva that's by no means top-of-the-range, but I've got central locking, cruise control, electric front windows, a CD player, Bluetooth connectivity and an electronic handbrake. I could probably do without all of those features, although I've become used to the handbrake and it really does make a difference.

It's like everything else in life - as technology improves it trickles down and features that were once only available on the top-level models make it down to the more basic models.

Would anyone really want to go back to using a manual choke?

Or a starter handle

 

[GusB]

Or a starter handle

Well, quite. Perhaps some people miss the broken wrist experience!

 

[joebassman]

My father owned several Reliant Robins and then inhertied a Rialto from my grandad. They were as basic as one could get, although I not sure if they counted as a car or a tricylcle.

I have a seat leon at the moment from 2019 with an electronic handbreak. Personally I prefer the lever but the electric one is OK as long as I don't forget to turn it back on after going through a car wash.

I drove the newer Leon as a courtesy car. I had to use the touchscreen for the aircon, which meant going through several menus. I definitly prefer dials and buttons. The advantage I find with allowing my phone to connect is I can use waze rather than having to use a satnav, which would mean subscribing to have map updates and more bulky.

I'm not a fan of the front collision sensor though at the front. Mine broke after a rock or hit it and I don't particularily find it necessary anyway and over sensitive.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm skeptical of this - I used to manage a guy from Cyprus, every time he'd come over for a meeting he'd buy a second hand car here and drive it all the way back to sell as a side hustle.

This may be though cause our second hand market here is more depreceat-y than the continent.

And there you have it, want cheap and basic then buy second hand.

I was going to suggest this too. If folk really want a back to basics car it really has to be electric because the internal combustion engine is the very definition of complex.



There are a number of firms doing similar with classic cars using new old stock to (re)build Morris Minors, Citroen 2CV (see: https://the2cvshop.co.uk/rebuilds/rebuilt-2cv-with-new-bodyshell-and-panels/) and the like. These are extremely simple cars but they are not what you would call cheap because if you keep the business small you don’t get the benefit of mass production. Effectively you are hand building cars even if you are using old parts.

I also think that there is a lot of rose tinted spectacles going on here. The reason that cars have developed the way they have is because that’s what consumers want. Larger, safer, more comfortable, more reliable is what the vast majority of folk want.

Well my two Vauxhall Carltons registered 1992 & 1993 were very reliable BUT my newer 2006 Vectra is turning out to be the most troublesome car I have ever had in its 2.5 years slung around my neck (not only unreliable but hugely expensive compared to days of yore). That goes back to my first car - a rusting Austin Alegro in 1983.

 

[randyrippley]

What would have been the ultimate basic car: the Africar

The Incredible Story Of The Africar - The Wooden-Bodied Car For Africa

The story of the Africar is worthy of a Hollywood film, it involves millions of dollars, a Cambridge-educated engineering genius, a film crew, a The Africar was the vision of Englishman Tony Howarth. Howarth's vision was for an inexpensive yet adaptable vehicle, able to negotiate the tracks that...

silodrome.com

Interesting idea: simple, rot free, repairable using spanners and plywood.
Ran into financial difficulties, shut down as a scam after spending a lot of cash.

It was never clear what happened to the handful of machines that were built: two were last heard of disappearing down the M6. Might still be around in someones barn.....................

Us locals all regarded it as another scam on the lines of de Lorean or LearFan, but they managed to sucker the government, city and county councils in paying a fortune in grant aid - which all vanished

 

[richw]

The trick to play should you desire a RHD car of the basic spec that is only offered for sale on the continent, is to buy it Malta or Cyprus. You will of course have the subsequent problem of getting the car back home, so Malta would be the better option due to the much shorter journey through Italy and France. Getting a car home from Cyprus via Greece, the Balkans and much of Central Europe would be quite the task! Though the idea of getting a combination of trains and ferries down to Malta and driving back does sound like it would be a fun adventure.

The downside to your plan, car prices in Malta and Cyprus are considerably higher than the U.K. then You’d have import costs, dvla registration costs.
The base spec in Malta would be higher than a mid to high spec here before the extra costs. Why would anyone see this as a sensible idea other than to cut their nose off to spite their own face? Absolute ridiculous to even consider.
And as it would be a non U.K. spec grey import its value would be quite a bit lower than a U.K. spec at resale too.
There is no sensible logic behind your post here.

 

[Noddy]

And there you have it, want cheap and basic then buy second hand.

Well my two Vauxhall Carltons registered 1992 & 1993 were very reliable BUT my newer 2006 Vectra is turning out to be the most troublesome car I have ever had in its 2.5 years slung around my neck (not only unreliable but hugely expensive compared to days of yore). That goes back to my first car - a rusting Austin Alegro in 1983.

Of course modern cars are more reliable. Cars typically have a manufacturing design life of around 12 years and for the majority of owners/users during this period they are far more reliable. You are taking your one personal example and applying it to all modern cars, when your example involves buying and daily running old cars outside their design life, which is a total outlier for most people (and cars). When you are running cars that are older than 15 years you are getting into luck territory as to whether you get a good one or bad one. With previous generations of cars all the really bad ones would have already been weeded out in the first 15 years.

 

[E27007]

I thought the UP! was discontinued along with its Skoda and Seat versions? I have been considering an Aygo actually and I know someone who has two Toyotas and swears by them. Only sad thing is I would have to leave my long standing Ford dealership a family owned business one of the few that isn't now part of a "big-boy" chain. Had dealings with the big chains in my BL/Rover days and they hurt the wallet.

Your trusted Ford dealer which you wish to retain could probably source and supply a good quality used non-Ford to your specified needs, and sell it to you with a warranty and continue to service the vehicle for you, (they may hire a free-lance mechanic for each service appointment).

 

[Noddy]

Even cars made to European safety spec tend to have lot of lucrative extras in UK market, UK market just doesn't get basic spec.

For instance can buy a basic, lowest spec Seat Ibiza for €14,450 (£12,316) list price in Spain

Fiat in Slovenia has basic spec Panda list price €14,490 (£12,350)

Dacia will sell you a basic Sandero for €11,990 (£10,220) list price in France

configurador

www.seat.es

Konfigurator | Fiat

configurator.importers.fiat.com

Sandero

Découvrez Dacia Sandero, la citadine Dacia : son prix, son nouveau design, ses équipements, ses motorisations et les 2241 avis clients. Configurez ou réservez un essai.

www.dacia.fr

So realistically could have choice of cars with all the safety spec for under £12,500 in UK, but instead we get limited to higher spec versions

There has been a lot of chat about low spec versions. I think the issue with low spec versions is there is very little profit on them, and when you factor in the retooling required for the small European RHD market you wipe out this profit.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Of course modern cars are more reliable. Cars typically have a manufacturing design life of around 12 years and for the majority of owners/users during this period they are far more reliable. You are taking your one personal example and applying it to all modern cars, when your example involves buying and daily running old cars outside their design life, which is a total outlier for most people (and cars). When you are running cars that are older than 15 years you are getting into luck territory as to whether you get a good one or bad one. With previous generations of cars all the really bad ones would have already been weeded out in the first 15 years.

You are correct in that the older a car gets there are new issues that come to the fore. One thing I find is that models of cars that last over 15 years are likely to be a good reliable design.

There is a significant number of people driving cars older than 15 years of age as, after all, Sadiq Khan wants to remove them make money from them.

 

[Noddy]

There is a significant number of people driving cars older than 15 years of age as, after all, Sadiq Khan wants to remove them make money from them.

Well it depends what you call significant. A 15 year old petrol car is compliant. Non-compliant ULEZ cars in London are less than 10% the total but that also includes newer diesels, so your significant is probably 5-10% of folk (in London).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Well it depends what you call significant. A 15 year old petrol car is compliant. Non-compliant ULEZ cars in London are less than 10% the total but that also includes newer diesels, so your significant is probably 5-10% of folk (in London).

5-10% would be more than one make and model of car. My point is that there are enough people in that bracket running older, simpler cars that perhaps would buy a basic new one at the right price - but of course some would want large, small, estate or otherwise.

On reliability I would add that the 20 years worth of Carltons I have had worked out a lot more reliable than other peoples newer cars. Some commented on more problems within the first years of their cars life. Renault Espace comes to mind !. I generally avoid cars made/developed in Southern European and Eastern Bloc. Generally German or Japanese are good. The Vauxhalls are/were Opel so German - some merely rebadged (Opel Omega A -> Vauxhall Carlton) some manufactured in the UK.

I am thinking a very carefully designed car to ensure reliability over style. Easy to adapt LHD or RHD (some cars have been I believe). Keep it simple mechanically (subject to emissions) and the cabin spec is probably not worth economising on. I could be defining an electric car !.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The downside to your plan, car prices in Malta and Cyprus are considerably higher than the U.K. then You’d have import costs, dvla registration costs.
The base spec in Malta would be higher than a mid to high spec here before the extra costs. Why would anyone see this as a sensible idea other than to cut their nose off to spite their own face? Absolute ridiculous to even consider.
And as it would be a non U.K. spec grey import its value would be quite a bit lower than a U.K. spec at resale too.
There is no sensible logic behind your post here.

It wasn't an entirely serious post initially- though the point about those who want a modern classic rather than buying new still stands. A twenty-year old car from Malta will be in far better shape than an identical car in the UK.

 

[CBlue]

I have been driving Fords since 1996 having been a BL/Rover Metro user prior. In that year I switched to the KA - I liked its then futuristic styling and the availability of air con and power windows. Had five of them most top of the range models which were quite reasonably priced. However, a move to a house with a bigger parking space led me to upgrade to a Fiesta in 2008 and I am also now on the fifth one of those. My last upgrade was in 2018 and was almost at the limit of what I was prepared to pay at nearly £17,000 with a few extras. Moving to the bigger Fiesta turned out to be a good move as in 2014 my mother became disabled and the extra case for a wheelchair was welcome.

However, with my mother passing away in early 2020 I could easily downsize.

Now the Fiesta has been discontinued. My regular dealer who does my servicing has tried to persuade me to try a Puma "Its only a Fiesta on steroids" - but it isn't its an SUV. I need a smaller car not a bigger one.

If I could buy a brand new Ford KA to the original design (I didn't like the two later redesigns - Polish and Indian) I would be there like a shot.

I need a car which is reliable, easy to obtain parts if necessary, not that I have really needed many has a decent radio / CD / USB player and perhaps a built in SatNav - but not essential.

But the small car options seem to be getting fewer and fewer.

Most manufacturers just seem to be going for bigger and bigger options. Rather disappointing really.

John

Been running a top spec 2016 Fabia (3rd Gen) for 4 years now, replacing a low-spec 2006 Fiesta.

It feels like an ideal compromise - almost the same size as the Fiesta, but far better packaged with more room inside. Has the USB and infotainment stuff but old school physical HVAC controls, no electronic handbrake and still has a analogue dashboard. To me it's a good compromise between having all the modern toys of a newer car but without all the frippery like electronic handbrakes, lane assist and fully touchscreen controls, etc that a newer car would have. It's also a really nice drive - not quite up there with the Ford dynamically but it cruises on motorways like you'd expect a big saloon to do. Sounds like it would be in your ballpark of options, in honesty - assuming you can find a low milage used example.

 

[TheSmiths82]

I learned to drive in my parents' one-up-from-base spec Panda. It was a 1987 1000CL and was our family's first new car. Now that was basic! Luxuries included a heated rear window and rear wiper. I think it was the rear wiper which made it better than the base model (the 750L - obviously a bigger engine as well). Maybe the rear windows opened on the CL as well. The only optional extra we had fitted by the supplying dealer was an AM radio with 2 (yes 2) speakers. The decadence!

Our previous car had been a 1978 Renault 5 GTL. The GTL was almost the top of the range I believe: again having a heated rear window, rear wiper and not much else. I hate to think what the even lowlier models were like. Maybe illuminated heater controls and choke pull counted as GTL luxuries!

I follow some of the motoring YouTubers and some of the base spec cars of the 70's and 80's were astonishing. It is almost like they spent extra to make the car feel poverty spec. Some early base spec Metros had a reflector instead of a side indicators (until they were made law), no wiring for a radio, no passenger wing mirror, no heated rear windscreen, no brake servo, just nothing but absolute minimum to make the car road legal.

My dad had a Lada Riva 1200L and that seemed posh compared to those cars, it had stuff head rests and a light in the glove box/boot.

Been running a top spec 2016 Fabia (3rd Gen) for 4 years now, replacing a low-spec 2006 Fiesta.

It feels like an ideal compromise - almost the same size as the Fiesta, but far better packaged with more room inside. Has the USB and infotainment stuff but old school physical HVAC controls, no electronic handbrake and still has a analogue dashboard. To me it's a good compromise between having all the modern toys of a newer car but without all the frippery like electronic handbrakes, lane assist and fully touchscreen controls, etc that a newer car would have. It's also a really nice drive - not quite up there with the Ford dynamically but it cruises on motorways like you'd expect a big saloon to do. Sounds like it would be in your ballpark of options, in honesty - assuming you can find a low milage used example.

That is what I love about my 67 plate Fabia SE. It has a nice touch screen for the infotainment but everything else is quite old fashioned and simple. I have the 75bhp MPI engine too so no turbo to worry about, but I only use it for city driving so I don't need the extra power. I've had mine for 6 years now, apart from routine oil changes, new tyres, new discs and pads nothing has gone wrong with it. A far car from my 2010 Panda where I need to fettle with the electrics every few months.

 

[CBlue]

That is what I love about my 67 plate Fabia SE. It has a nice touch screen for the infotainment but everything else is quite old fashioned and simple. I have the 75bhp MPI engine too so no turbo to worry about, but I only use it for city driving so I don't need the extra power. I've had mine for 6 years now, apart from routine oil changes, new tyres, new discs and pads nothing has gone wrong with it. A far car from my 2010 Panda where I need to fettle with the electrics every few months.

Oh, very much the same here. Mine is the 110bhp TSI and given my commute is mostly motorway, it's more or less perfect. Don't have to work it hard when merging from a sliproad and can easily get 55mpg. Only issue I've ever had was a failed wiper stalk six months after purchase, which the dealer replaced under the year warranty that came with it being an approved used car. Otherwise the only expense has been tyres and brakes, a local VAG specialist garage carries out the servicing and as a result it's never let me down.

 

[Davester50]

Possibly- some modern features would really appeal to me (parking sensors for example) but I question the necessity of some, particularly electronic handbrakes, digital dashboards, and especially nonsense like Bluetooth connectivity with mobile phones. I managed fine ten years ago putting my phone on Airplane mode whenever I was driving, so that I wasn't tempted to answer a call while driving. Even using modern Bluetooth based handsfree is still a distraction, I'd much rather pretend it's 1990 when it comes to driving and phones. Roads would be safer all round if all cars had some sort of Voyager-style Faraday cage system that activated when the engine started (I'm joking, but I'm only half joking).

If someone offered new car that had a few things that were considered "luxury" in 1994 but none of the electronic nonsense (and didn't need a bloke with a laptop to diagnose basic faults) I'd snap their hands off!

Bluetooth is for far more than phone calls.
For me, music is the biggest use, (personally can only listen to radio for news and current affairs, the music output is either bland or repeated to death) and when the likes of VW charge a fortune for maps, satnav via Auto or Carplay are free.

I'd prefer high spec city cars, which are few and far between.

 

[341o2]

You are correct in that the older a car gets there are new issues that come to the fore. One thing I find is that models of cars that last over 15 years are likely to be a good reliable design.

There is a significant number of people driving cars older than 15 years of age as, after all, Sadiq Khan wants to remove them make money from them.

My Toyota Corolla is three months shy of being 20 years old, purchased it in 2015, and intend to keep it until it suffers either major mechanical or MOT failure.
And it is ULEZ compliant

 

[route101]

C1 and 108 discontinued, Aygo turned into an SUV inspired dustbin.

VW up I would say is in that bracket. A starter pack car if someone designed one.

 

[DelW]

I follow some of the motoring YouTubers and some of the base spec cars of the 70's and 80's were astonishing. It is almost like they spent extra to make the car feel poverty spec. Some early base spec Metros had a reflector instead of a side indicators (until they were made law), no wiring for a radio, no passenger wing mirror, no heated rear windscreen, no brake servo, just nothing but absolute minimum to make the car road legal.

Car specifications have steadily improved over the decades. When my parents bought their first car (a Morris Minor 1000) in 1960, the outside mirrors, windscreen washer, and even the heater, were all optional extras. (£2/10, £5 and £20 respectively - I still have the invoice). No provision for a radio, and I don't think heated rear screens had even been thought of then. It also had semaphore turn indicators which didn't retract properly at anything over about 45mph, and service intervals of 1000 miles. Still, it gave reliable service for six years until traded in for a more modern Austin 1100.

 

[Davester50]

Car specifications have steadily improved over the decades. When my parents bought their first car (a Morris Minor 1000) in 1960, the outside mirrors, windscreen washer, and even the heater, were all optional extras. (£2/10, £5 and £20 respectively - I still have the invoice). No provision for a radio, and I don't think heated rear screens had even been thought of then. It also had semaphore turn indicators which didn't retract properly at anything over about 45mph, and service intervals of 1000 miles. Still, it gave reliable service for six years until traded in for a more modern Austin 1100.

Now it's going backwards, as manufacturers are charging subscriptions for fitted features!

 

[CBlue]

Now it's going backwards, as manufacturers are charging subscriptions for fitted features!

It was always a running joke that BMW stood for "Broke My Wallet"

 

[Peter Sarf]

It was always a running joke that BMW stood for "Broke My Wallet"

Which reminds me. What proportion of cars are sold on credit these days ?.
Would a loan firm want to lend money on a basic car ?.

 

[Davester50]

Which reminds me. What proportion of cars are sold on credit these days ?.
Would a loan firm want to lend money on a basic car ?.

Good question. Saw an article about car companies making larger profits from finance than the car.

 

[skyhigh]

Would a loan firm want to lend money on a basic car ?.

Don't see why not. They make their money regardless.

In fact, if looking for a PCP, they might actually charge more for a basic model as they might struggle to get a decent price for it when they come to sell it on at the end.

 

[jon0844]

Which reminds me. What proportion of cars are sold on credit these days ?.
Would a loan firm want to lend money on a basic car ?.

Whenever I look at websites for new cars, they're either advertised on PCP or lease. None seem interested in hire purchase (is that even a thing anymore, as I never see it mentioned!), but they certainly don't want you paying in cash so they presumably won't want to steer you towards getting a personal loan. My guess is they'll spend ages convincing you of the benefits of PCP, which can be fine IF the value of the car doesn't fall like a stone and the car is kept in pristine condition - oh and that you want to effectively never own a vehicle (I doubt many people financing can suddenly muster up £10-15k or whatever in the last month to buy it!).

I have to assume most people today are choosing to, or not even considering alternatives, finance - and given the price of cars new, it's perhaps not that surprising.

Indeed, beyond the likes of BMW, Mercedes and Tesla wanting to charge extra to unlock features you already have - often with a subscription that never ends, you have car makers trying to sell car subscriptions where you just pay £500-600 a month or whatever for the rest of your life, with the ability to change car (in theory) whenever you want. Of course, while it might include all your maintenance and other running costs, there are fees when you want to swap car, a risk of being penalised disproportionately if your car gets a bump or scrape and so on.

 

[DelW]

Whenever I look at websites for new cars, they're either advertised on PCP or lease. None seem interested in hire purchase (is that even a thing anymore, as I never see it mentioned!), but they certainly don't want you paying in cash so they presumably won't want to steer you towards getting a personal loan. My guess is they'll spend ages convincing you of the benefits of PCP, which can be fine IF the value of the car doesn't fall like a stone and the car is kept in pristine condition - oh and that you want to effectively never own a vehicle (I doubt many people financing can suddenly muster up £10-15k or whatever in the last month to buy it!).

While car dealers might encourage you towards their finance schemes, I don't think many (if any) will decline your buying outright, though actual cash (as in wads of notes Arthur Daley style) might run into money laundering rules these days.

When I bought my current car new in 2020, I paid a deposit by debit card, and the balance by two BACS transfers from my bank. I'd said from the start that I'd be buying outright, and there was no attempt to push me towards loans or PCP.

When I bought its predecessor new in 2012, it came from a Ford dealer which was offering £1000 additional discount if I used Ford finance for at least 20% of the price. With the salesman's agreement, I did that, but paid the loan off in full after the first month (which was the minimum term iirc). So it was sold via a loan, but only just.

Like you, I've never been convinced of the benefits of PCP, though lots of my work colleagues used it and accepted the costs and conditions involved.

 

[Snow1964]

Whenever I look at websites for new cars, they're either advertised on PCP or lease. None seem interested in hire purchase (is that even a thing anymore, as I never see it mentioned!), but they certainly don't want you paying in cash so they presumably won't want to steer you towards getting a personal loan. My guess is they'll spend ages convincing you of the benefits of PCP, which can be fine IF the value of the car doesn't fall like a stone and the car is kept in pristine condition - oh and that you want to effectively never own a vehicle (I doubt many people financing can suddenly muster up £10-15k or whatever in the last month to buy it!).

I had that debate recently, a work colleague said thinking of changing the car as have £3000 contribution on PCP

Suggested we use the Finance calculator on Skoda website, difference between retail price and amount payable was about £5500 (would have been £8500 without the £3000), so deal was we give you notional £3000, you pay back £8500 in interest and fees.

However a quick internet search found that if pay off the balance within 14 days, either phone VW finance or use online account to settle, get to keep the £3000 discount (and free servicing offer too). Seems to be a 14 days cooling off period which isn't openly advertised. Presumably those they can't afford to settle their PCP subsidise those that do.

So paying cash is often daft nowadays, if have chance to get PCP discount, then using the cash to settle and pay off the PCP within days. But wouldn't tell the dealer your intention as they might lose their arrangement / introduction commission.

That is what I love about my 67 plate Fabia SE. It has a nice touch screen for the infotainment but everything else is quite old fashioned and simple. I have the 75bhp MPI engine too so no turbo to worry about, but I only use it for city driving so I don't need the extra power. I've had mine for 6 years now, apart from routine oil changes, new tyres, new discs and pads nothing has gone wrong with it. A far car from my 2010 Panda where I need to fettle with the electrics every few months.

I have a 2018 Seat Arona, before they added digital dashboard and online stuff, done 52,000 miles, never needed any repair or warranty work. Just routine servicing, brake discs and pads. Bought set of winter wheels so still using original tyres which have done about 30k miles (swap them around each seasonal change to even out wear)

So agree, cars before about 4 years ago when started losing physical heating buttons, and software became iffy and online are ones to go for.

Just for fun, next time when on a motorway, check out the cars on hard shoulder or breakdown truck, seem to be disproportionate amount from some premium manufacturers.

 

[jon0844]

While car dealers might encourage you towards their finance schemes, I don't think many (if any) will decline your buying outright, though actual cash (as in wads of notes Arthur Daley style) might run into money laundering rules these days.

I didn't mean literal cash, but more a bank transfer or payment from a debit card.

It just feels that a dealership is going to do everything it can to steer you away from that, perhaps also because both a lease or PCP option gives them an opportunity to get the car back later and also to sign you up with a new one. A cash sale might well be someone who intends to keep the car for 10-15 years and run it into the ground...

 

[E27007]

Oh, very much the same here. Mine is the 110bhp TSI and given my commute is mostly motorway, it's more or less perfect. Don't have to work it hard when merging from a sliproad and can easily get 55mpg. Only issue I've ever had was a failed wiper stalk six months after purchase, which the dealer replaced under the year warranty that came with it being an approved used car. Otherwise the only expense has been tyres and brakes, a local VAG specialist garage carries out the servicing and as a result it's never let me down.

Don't count your chickens too soon, the TSi is a direct-injection engine, prone to poor-running / stalling due carbon build-up and blockage of the inlet ports, a cylinder-head lift and decoke to remove the carbon is not a loose-change repair bill.