Would Closed Rail Links In England Reopen?

[zwk500]

I think it is as I had a look on google earth and the gap is wide enough.

But I've had a look on Google Earth and the gap isn't wide enough.

This leaves us in somewhat of a quandry. If only there was somebody posting on this board who's rebuilt railways before, like @Bald Rick.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think it is as I had a look on google earth and the gap is wide enough.

Google Earth is not a recognised Permanent Way design tool.


Alternatively - wide enough for what? A single track at standard structure gauge, with a 2-3 metre cess on at least one side? And at how does the track actually get there (both figuratively in terms of alignment from the station, and around the buildings, and actually in terms of construction, ie free space for lifting components in).
And where are the drainage runs going? And the cabling? And the fencing? Etc

 

[Class08Shunter]

But I've had a look on Google Earth and the gap isn't wide enough.

This leaves us in somewhat of a quandry. If only there was somebody posting on this board who's rebuilt railways before, like @Bald Rick.

I'll give you proof.
The gap is 27 feet wide. It must be enough.

 

[bingleybong]

An aside but isn't S Taylor and Sons an extended former railway building? This in no way makes a line fit through of course.

 

[Brubulus]

An aside but isn't S Taylor and Sons an extended former railway building? This in no way makes a line fit through of course.

It is, which is why I'm slightly confused by the idea it's foundations would be shaken to bits as it was designed to deal with being right next to a railway.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'll give you proof.View attachment 125417
The gap is 27 feet wide. It must be enough.

well that’s all right then

 

[zwk500]

I'll give you proof.
The gap is 27 feet wide. It must be enough.

1 gap does not a railway make. What will the curve radii be? Is there sufficient space for the transition between the two reverse curves necessary at that location?

It is, which is why I'm slightly confused by the idea it's foundations would be shaken to bits as it was designed to deal with being right next to a railway.

Lidl wasn't.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Perhaps if we started from the beginning:

Option	Costs	Benefits	Negative issues
Malton-Pickering NYMR	£200m+, Probably £300m (Very High)	Connects small town to national network allows through trains to Whitby (possibly) Allows railtours on/off NYMR Journey times from York competitive/comparable to bus	Requires substantial demolition of homes and businesses Requires 3 level crossings requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires major intervention in NYMR to permit through trains Requires capacity intervention on Whitby branch to get through trains
Malton-Pickering (Outgang)	£150-250m+ (very high)	Connects small town to national network Journey times from York competitive to bus	Requires substantial earthworks Requires level crossings or bridges Requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires small modification to road infrastructure for access
Malton-Pickering South (Black Bull)	£100-180m (Very high)	Connects pub and caravan park to national network Rebuilds some previously closed lines	Requires connecting bus/1.5 mile walk Requires infrastructure changes at Malton Requires changes to road infrastructure for bus/parking
Run bus from Malton (either existing or dedicated), integrated times and fares	~£0.1-0.25m (Low)	Much lower costs No rail changes required Investment in bus infrastructure of wider benefit for Malton and Pickering	Requires small cost to integrate fares and times in Requires small cost in marketing Requires small investment in bus infrastructure at both ends.

Why don't we trial if there is public transport demand by integrating the Malton-Pickering bus into rail timetables. It is worth pointing out the bus is timetabled for 15-20 minutes, and the likely travel time from Malton to Pickering town by rail would be 8-10 minutes. Travel time to a Pickering parkway at the Blackbull would be about 6-7 minutes, but the bus would then be a 5-10 minute wait and further 5-10 minute journey.

Excellent assessment @zwk500.

To add weight to your analysis, you could include timescales.

Options 1-3 could be running, at a push, by 2031.

Option 4 could be running, at a push, in 8 weeks.

Northern or TPE train to Malton. Bus Malton to Pickering. NYMR Pickering to Grosmont or Whitby, Northern Grosmont to Whitby. With integrated ticketing and timetables? Up and running in a few weeks? Years to never more like. Britain (outside London and PTE areas perhaps) is incapable of integrated transport.

Current rail plus bus through ticketing to Pickering or Whitby is a shambles, with a seemingly random selection of origins available depending on which TOC sets the fare to the railhead. Northern to NYMR through ticketing existed at one time in the past, but no longer. I don’t even think that there is NYMR/Northern ticket inter-availability between Grosmont and Whitby.

If this existed that I would probably use it, but good luck to anyone trying to negotiate the arrangements.

 

[zwk500]

Northern or TPE train to Malton. Bus Malton to Pickering. NYMR Pickering to Grosmont or Whitby, Northern Grosmont to Whitby. With integrated ticketing and timetables? Up and running in a few weeks? Years to never more like.

Nothing as complicated as that. Treat Malton-Pickering as Luton Airport Parkway - Luton Airport currently is, or the Heathrow bus links. The service exists, the data processing isn't exactly onerous. I agree 8 weeks may be a bit optimistic to agree the commercial aspects but certainly possible by the May timetable change.
For instance, it could be agreed that the fare for this leg is the same as the bus fare, and that all money for the bus leg will go to the bus company, and the times published are those of the existing bus link.

 

[The Planner]

Perhaps if we started from the beginning:

Option	Costs	Benefits	Negative issues
Malton-Pickering NYMR	£200m+, Probably £300m (Very High)	Connects small town to national network allows through trains to Whitby (possibly) Allows railtours on/off NYMR Journey times from York competitive/comparable to bus	Requires substantial demolition of homes and businesses Requires 3 level crossings requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires major intervention in NYMR to permit through trains Requires capacity intervention on Whitby branch to get through trains
Malton-Pickering (Outgang)	£150-250m+ (very high)	Connects small town to national network Journey times from York competitive to bus	Requires substantial earthworks Requires level crossings or bridges Requires infrastructure interventions at Malton Requires small modification to road infrastructure for access
Malton-Pickering South (Black Bull)	£100-180m (Very high)	Connects pub and caravan park to national network Rebuilds some previously closed lines	Requires connecting bus/1.5 mile walk Requires infrastructure changes at Malton Requires changes to road infrastructure for bus/parking
Run bus from Malton (either existing or dedicated), integrated times and fares	~£0.1-0.25m (Low)	Much lower costs No rail changes required Investment in bus infrastructure of wider benefit for Malton and Pickering	Requires small cost to integrate fares and times in Requires small cost in marketing Requires small investment in bus infrastructure at both ends.

Why don't we trial if there is public transport demand by integrating the Malton-Pickering bus into rail timetables. It is worth pointing out the bus is timetabled for 15-20 minutes, and the likely travel time from Malton to Pickering town by rail would be 8-10 minutes. Travel time to a Pickering parkway at the Blackbull would be about 6-7 minutes, but the bus would then be a 5-10 minute wait and further 5-10 minute journey.

Reads like the justification in a Network Change options table

 

[zwk500]

Reads like the justification in a Network Change options table

Old habits and all that....

 

[RT4038]

For instance, it could be agreed that the fare for this leg is the same as the bus fare, and that all money for the bus leg will go to the bus company, and the times published are those of the existing bus link.

So what is the point of the through fare then?

 

[zwk500]

So what is the point of the through fare then?

So that it appears in journey planners, and people can buy 1 ticket for journeys anywhere on the network to Pickering. Being visible in the same system is half the battle for integration efforts. Plusbus, as mentioned, is rather a mess.

 

[Glenn1969]

So that it appears in journey planners, and people can buy 1 ticket for journeys anywhere on the network to Pickering. Being visible in the same system is half the battle for integration efforts. Plusbus, as mentioned, is rather a mess.

I thouight York to Whitby via Pickering had been in journey planners and on RTT for some time. Unfortunately it's in dire danger of being withdrawn as a commercial route by Transdev in April.

 

[RT4038]

So that it appears in journey planners, and people can buy 1 ticket for journeys anywhere on the network to Pickering. Being visible in the same system is half the battle for integration efforts. Plusbus, as mentioned, is rather a mess.

The journey can appear on Journey planners, without a through ticket. The DB journey planner does just that for many journeys - sells the bit that it can.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I thouight York to Whitby via Pickering had been in journey planners and on RTT for some time. Unfortunately it's in dire danger of being withdrawn as a commercial route by Transdev in April.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Indeed it is, but not available from many stations where people would want to use it from (like much of the north of England). I think that it is only available if LNER is the fare setting TOC to York.

Then you have these two oddities, via Scarborough.

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

Look up fares for any train journey in Britain

Full details of all British rail Single, Return & Season tickets and Travelcards. Built-in Season Ticket Calculator.

www.brfares.com

 

[zwk500]

The journey can appear on Journey planners, without a through ticket. The DB journey planner does just that for many journeys - sells the bit that it can.

This is the key problem though, it just sells part of the ticket. It could also do with better marketing.

But if the bus is in danger of being withdrawn this kind of proves the point - it's worthless to build a railway very few want to use.

 

[bluenoxid]

Could I ask what the point of the project is?
If it is Whitby connectivity, would option 5 be a Scarborough to Whitby bus rather than trying to run something via Pickering.

 

[zwk500]

Could I ask what the point of the project is?

The point of the project appears to be to rebuild the railway to Pickering.

 

[Eyersey468]

But if Network Rail reopened it for NYMR and not for other trains the NYMR would be fine with running to malton. Also if the NYMR got a lot more money from donations or other causes they could run to malton.

Would the extra revenue from passengers offset the increase in maintenance costs though?

 

[zwk500]

Would the extra revenue from passengers offset the increase in maintenance costs though?

Please don't reopen this part of the debate. It was hard enough to get the point across in the first place.

The NYMR cannot afford to fund the extension on it's own. And NR will not be building a railway for anybody else.

 

[Class08Shunter]

Google Earth is not a recognised Permanent Way design tool.


Alternatively - wide enough for what? A single track at standard structure gauge, with a 2-3 metre cess on at least one side? And at how does the track actually get there (both figuratively in terms of alignment from the station, and around the buildings, and actually in terms of construction, ie free space for lifting components in).
And where are the drainage runs going? And the cabling? And the fencing? Etc

I really didn't think this through. I forgot about trying to fit the track in. I don't think you have enough room to fit track.

Please don't reopen this part of the debate. It was hard enough to get the point across in the first place.

The NYMR cannot afford to fund the extension on it's own. And NR will not be building a railway for anybody else.

If the NYMR can't fund it on their own, NYMR and NR could share the cost.

 

[zwk500]

I really didn't think this through. I forgot about trying to fit the track in. I don't think you have enough room to fit track.

No offence, but how were you thinking a railway would run without track?

If the NYMR can't fund it on their own, NYMR and NR could share the cost.

We've been through all this, and whether they could or not is utterly irrelevant. NR will not be giving the NYMR any money to build tracks.

 

[Class08Shunter]

No offence, but how were you thinking a railway would run without track?

We've been through all this, and whether they could or not is utterly irrelevant. NR will not be giving the NYMR any money to build tracks.

I knew about the track being laid but I didn't know if you had enough room to lay track. What I started thinking about was preparing to lay the track.

An aside but isn't S Taylor and Sons an extended former railway building? This in no way makes a line fit through of course.

You're right as Pickering Engine Shed is part if S Taylor and then they would've extended it. So the railway would still fit through as the engine shed was original and the extension was after the line closed in 1965. Because they extended their business in Pickering and the railway has to go through that, what could happen is the part of the building circled in red can be demolished and they can work in the remaining parts. Obviously you would have to give them compensation.

 

[Neptune]

You're right as Pickering Engine Shed is part if S Taylor and then they would've extended it. So the railway would still fit through as the engine shed was original and the extension was after the line closed in 1965. Because they extended their business in Pickering and the railway has to go through that, what could happen is the part of the building circled in red can be demolished and they can work in the remaining parts. Obviously you would have to give them compensation.View attachment 125440

And if their business can’t function without that bit you’re demolishing what then?

 

[Class08Shunter]

And if their business can’t function without that bit you’re demolishing what then?

We still demolish the bit circled in red but as compensation we extend the business following the blue line finishing where the arrow is.

 

[YorksLad12]

You're right as Pickering Engine Shed is part if S Taylor and then they would've extended it. So the railway would still fit through as the engine shed was original and the extension was after the line closed in 1965. Because they extended their business in Pickering and the railway has to go through that, what could happen is the part of the building circled in red can be demolished and they can work in the remaining parts. Obviously you would have to give them compensation.

We still demolish the bit circled in red but as compensation we extend the business north.

I'm not related to this Taylor (quite a few, but not ths one), but I think if you proposed this to me, I would tell you where to go. I might even draw a diagram. It's not as if you've ever get a Compulsory Purchase order - this isn't HS2 demolishing an ancient woodland you know, and they're not the only issue with reinstating the route.

And if their business can’t function without that bit you’re demolishing what then?

Exactly. Without knowing the business in question, there may be a reason why the building is the shape it is. "Extending north" doesn't help if you need width for equipment. Given the amount of building that's taken place on this long-closed, never protected route... we do seem to be a bit hung up on one building here.

 

[Class08Shunter]

I'm not related to this Taylor (quite a few, but not ths one), but I think if you proposed this to me, I would tell you where to go. I might even draw a diagram. It's not as if you've ever get a Compulsory Purchase order - this isn't HS2 demolishing an ancient woodland you know, and they're not the only issue with reinstating the route.


Exactly. Without knowing the business in question, there may be a reason why the building is the shape it is. "Extending north" doesn't help if you need width for equipment. Given the amount of building that's taken place on this long-closed, never protected route... we do seem to be a bit hung up on one building here.

They probably used Pickering Engine Shed first then expanded. So if they were extended north they would have to use smaller equipment.

 

[Tobbes]

The only way this would be rebuilt is if NR (& therefore the Government) decided that this was a national priority and both the resources (cash, expertise, more cash) that would get you to a place where Compulsory Purchase Orders could be granted. Given that bar, I'm be (frankly completely) astonished if this ever met that bar.

 

[Neptune]

They probably used Pickering Engine Shed first then expanded. So if they were extended north they would have to use smaller equipment.

So that’s ok then is it? Do you know the business and know they can use smaller equipment? This really is starting to sound desperate. Trains or bust isn’t the be all and end all of every town and village whether there was a railway there or not 50+ years ago!