Wrexham redouble

[krus_aragon]

Landudno would then be served by a Liverpool - Landudno service stopping everywhere, thus reconnecting the North Wales coast with its nearest City.

The pedant in me wishes to point out that there are two cities in North Wales already (Bangor and St Asaph), and then the city of Chester is just over the border. :P

I've had a brief read through the Welsh language edition of the document, and other than several issues of poor (or missed) translation, I noted relatively little reference to North-South Wales journeys and services, (possibly as few as two references). Making wiggle room to change services to make the case for electrification, perhaps?

 

[notlob.divad]

The pedant in me wishes to point out that there are two cities in North Wales already (Bangor and St Asaph), and then the city of Chester is just over the border. :P

Fair cop, you got me.

 

[QueensCurve]

It's complicated.

North Wales electrification needs Warrington and Chester to be completed, and in addition to converting the maximum number of trains currently using the route, to get close to a BCR of 1, there needs to be an extension of all Euston services to Bangor/Holyhead, a new hourly Manchester to Holyhead service, and a new Liverpool to Bangor/Holyhead service (think every other hour for that).

There also needs to be a commitment from the Welsh Government, which also requires DfT support as there's route mileage in England, to electrify the north to south route or alternatively, a commitment by the Welsh Government and/or Welsh franchise to procure bi-mode stock to operate north to south services, removing most of the remaining diesel operated services from the North Wales coast.

Now that Wovlerhampton to Shrewsbury electrification is again being mooted, might there be a case for extending it Shrewsbury-Chester-Halton JN?

If that took place, might that affect the case for further electrification?

 

[craigybagel]

Now that Wovlerhampton to Shrewsbury electrification is again being mooted, might there be a case for extending it Shrewsbury-Chester-Halton JN?

If that took place, might that affect the case for further electrification?

Not if every 2nd train is going down the unelectrified Marches line

 

[PHILIPE]

Now that Wovlerhampton to Shrewsbury electrification is again being mooted, might there be a case for extending it Shrewsbury-Chester-Halton JN?

If that took place, might that affect the case for further electrification?

Throughout the Forum, we get suggestions about electrifying here and there and once a route is identified, somebody comes along and says " it could be extended to xxx". Ideas good,perhaps.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Now that Wovlerhampton to Shrewsbury electrification is again being mooted, might there be a case for extending it Shrewsbury-Chester-Halton JN?

Doesn't answer the Cambrian problem, which is tied into the Birmingham-Wrexham service too.

 

[PHILIPE]

Doesn't answer the Cambrian problem, which is tied into the Birmingham-Wrexham service too.

We are somewhat in the dark until the new Wales and Borders franchise map is drawn and a service spec announced.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

We are somewhat in the dark until the new Wales and Borders franchise map is drawn and a service spec announced.

I doubt anything radical will happen in the forthcoming franchise, but I can see the franchise after that having to drop through services from Machynlleth to Birmingham if pollution concerns at New Street persist.

Birmingham to Shrewsbury becomes EMU worked, DMUs then work the Shrewsbury to Machynlleth route.

 

[krus_aragon]

I doubt anything radical will happen in the forthcoming franchise, but I can see the franchise after that having to drop through services from Machynlleth to Birmingham if pollution concerns at New Street persist.

Birmingham to Shrewsbury becomes EMU worked, DMUs then work the Shrewsbury to Machynlleth route.

If we're looking two franchises into the future, the current (ERTMS) 158 fleet will be needing replacement by then. Based on present-day rolling stock purchases, a bi-mode fleet is quite likely.

 

[Rhydgaled]

If we're looking two franchises into the future, the current (ERTMS) 158 fleet will be needing replacement by then. Based on present-day rolling stock purchases, a bi-mode fleet is quite likely.

Depending on the length of the franchise, that does sound like a possible outcome provided somebody can figure out a way of getting a compliant diesel engine under the floor of something like a 3-car 442. Until the 158s have been totally worn out though, I don't see Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester electrification as a realistic prospect, and unless LM are running enough Birmingham-Shrewsbury services to justify wires on there own, I don't see Birmingham-Shrewsbury electrfication being particularly likely either (as the hourly 158s will be running diesel-under-the-wires on this section unless some very brave desision makers decide to face the wrath of Cambrian passengers).

 

[Gareth Marston]

We are somewhat in the dark until the new Wales and Borders franchise map is drawn and a service spec announced.

I have it in writing from DFT that there will be no curtailment of through services from Birmingham to Cambrian.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt anything radical will happen in the forthcoming franchise, but I can see the franchise after that having to drop through services from Machynlleth to Birmingham if pollution concerns at New Street persist.

Birmingham to Shrewsbury becomes EMU worked, DMUs then work the Shrewsbury to Machynlleth route.

5 times as many Cross Country DMU's run into New St than do ATW ones per hour. Banning one TOC whilst letting others run in would not be fair. And not do too much for pollution either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Depending on the length of the franchise, that does sound like a possible outcome provided somebody can figure out a way of getting a compliant diesel engine under the floor of something like a 3-car 442. Until the 158s have been totally worn out though, I don't see Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester electrification as a realistic prospect, and unless LM are running enough Birmingham-Shrewsbury services to justify wires on there own, I don't see Birmingham-Shrewsbury electrfication being particularly likely either (as the hourly 158s will be running diesel-under-the-wires on this section unless some very brave desision makers decide to face the wrath of Cambrian passengers).

The solution to a number of problems is simply extending the EBW Intercity services to Shrewsbury and on to Chester via Wrexham and Cambrian as bi modes. The through trains are retained, diesels are cut from New St, a path through the West Midlands is freed and communities get London trains back.

Hourly to Shrewsbury then maybe 4 a day onto Cambrian.

 

[krus_aragon]

5 times as many Cross Country DMU's run into New St than do ATW ones per hour. Banning one TOC whilst letting others run in would not be fair. And not do too much for pollution either.

In fairness, Phillip was discussing possibilities in two franchises' time. Who knows what XC and ATW's successors will be using as rolling stock by then...

 

[AndrewE]

The solution to a number of problems is simply extending the EBW Intercity services to Shrewsbury and on to Chester via Wrexham and Cambrian as bi modes. The through trains are retained, diesels are cut from New St, a path through the West Midlands is freed and communities get London trains back.

Hourly to Shrewsbury then maybe 4 a day onto Cambrian.

Or just diesel-hauling exisiting or new EMUs.
Oh no, I forgot. "It's too difficult" for today's railway.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Or just diesel-hauling exisiting or new EMUs.
Oh no, I forgot. "It's too difficult" for today's railway.

Oh no providing a service the customer wants it will never wash!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The solution to a number of problems is simply extending the EBW Intercity services to Shrewsbury and on to Chester via Wrexham and Cambrian as bi modes. The through trains are retained, diesels are cut from New St, a path through the West Midlands is freed and communities get London trains back.

Hourly to Shrewsbury then maybe 4 a day onto Cambrian.

Sorry, what's EBW? And cutting through trains from the Cambrian to Birmingham to just 4 a day?

Or just diesel-hauling exisiting or new EMUs.
Oh no, I forgot. "It's too difficult" for today's railway.

Today's railway or not, I wouldn't suggest it as a solution for the Cambrian. As I see it, the future service should be hourly Birmingham-Aberystwyth, with a portion for Wrexham/Chester every two hours and for Pwllheli in the other hours. Too difficult or not, portion working with locos involved is likely to be too slow for anything other than sleeper services*. If there were two paths an hour between Birmingham and Shrewsbury (one for Aberystwyth, the other for Wrexham as required), and coast passengers changed at Machynlleth, your idea might work.

* though if we're talking London services, the stock is presumably 125mph capable and therefore not fitted with UEGs, so I wouldn't want portion working with that anyway

 

[craigybagel]

Sorry, what's EBW?

Euston Birmingham Wolverhampton. It's what the West Midlands services are collectively referred to as within Virgin Trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Come HS2, there won't be any "EBW"s.
Something radical is bound to happen then, and it might not be nice for Shropshire and points west.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Come HS2, there won't be any "EBW"s.
Something radical is bound to happen then, and it might not be nice for Shropshire and points west.

Disagree there the NR RUS has one long distance path per hour coming into Shrewsbury from Birmingham that's not linked to Wales and Border franchise.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Euston Birmingham Wolverhampton. It's what the West Midlands services are collectively referred to as within Virgin Trains.

Ah, thanks.

Come HS2, there won't be any "EBW"s.
Something radical is bound to happen then, and it might not be nice for Shropshire and points west.

I would have thought a number of InterCity services from Euston on the classic WCML would persist, just with a lower frequency (eg. 1tph rather than 3tph from Euston to Manchester) and perhaps more calls at places like Milton Keynes. I think HS2 is an ill-thought-out mess though, particularly the idea of a Birmingham terminus.

Going back to the Wrexham line though, and my earlier comment about the difficultly of electrifying it given the interworking with the Cambrians... It has just occurred to me that, if the route (and the north-Wales coast) were electrified, then the Wrexham trains could join/split at Wolverhampton with N.Wales-Birmingham (via Crewe) services, leaving the Cambrians as their own self-contained hourly service, potentially with portions for the Cambrian coast on every train rather than the portion being detached for Wrexham at Shrewsbury in alternate hours. That is still unlikely to provide more than 1 electric train per hour between Shrewsbury and Wrexham/Chester though, so still not enough to justify wires probably.

 

[kieron]

The pedant in me wishes to point out that there are two cities in North Wales already (Bangor and St Asaph), and then the city of Chester is just over the border. :P

Chester (and, in particular Chester Football Club's ground) is on both sides of the border.

Liverpool isn't all that close in transport terms, anyway, with the River Mersey there to block any sort of direct route.

Come HS2, there won't be any "EBW"s.
Something radical is bound to happen then, and it might not be nice for Shropshire and points west.

Personally, I find it hard to imagine anything which doesn't involve direct trains between Shrewsbury and the HS2 station in Birmingham.

What do you have in mind?

 

[Camden]

Liverpool isn't all that close in transport terms, anyway, with the River Mersey there to block any sort of direct route.

There's always the Wirral part of Liverpool, part of which is also in Wales.

(yes yes I know "that's not Liverpool". Even though it is.)

 

[tomuk]

When HS2 gets to Crewe the quickest route to London will be that way not Birmingham.

Shrewsbury - Birmingham - 1hr 15min + 49 mins to Euston HS2 = 2hr 4min

Shrewsbury - Crewe - 30 mins + 55 mins to Euston HS2 = 1hr 25min

Plus the Crewe Hub will probably be a better interchange.

A good service pattern north of Shrewsbury would be:

1 tph South Wales to Manchester - Fast - calling Whitchurch only

0.5 tph Cambrian to Crewe - Semi Fast - Wem, Nantwich (Assumes Cambrian is hourly - other hour as now goes to Birmingham)

0.5 tph Shrewsbury to Crewe - Local - All Stops

 

[Rhydgaled]

A good service pattern north of Shrewsbury would be:

1 tph South Wales to Manchester - Fast - calling Whitchurch only

0.5 tph Cambrian to Crewe - Semi Fast - Wem, Nantwich (Assumes Cambrian is hourly - other hour as now goes to Birmingham)

0.5 tph Shrewsbury to Crewe - Local - All Stops

Why would the fast call at Whitchurch (and not the semi-fast)? Personally, I'd suggest the S.Wales-Manchester fast run non-stop between Crewe and Shrewsbury. The intermediate stations would instead be served by London Midland (it is an English market after all) running hourly (serving Whitchurch, Nantwich and possibly Wem every hour, with the other stops served on alternate trips as you suggest). Ideally the Cambrians would become clockface hourly from Aberystwyth, meaning it makes more sense for the eastern destination to be the same every hour (and Birmingham is probably the most important destination for the Cambrian).

If you did have Cambrian services heading up the Crewe line, quite a few passengers would probably want to go through to Manchester rather than stopping short at Crewe but there probably aren't paths for that, unless you can find a pile of extra ETRMS equiped 158s and use them on the S.Wales-Manchester run with a portion for Aberystwyth detached at Shrewsbury.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Personally, I find it hard to imagine anything which doesn't involve direct trains between Shrewsbury and the HS2 station in Birmingham.
What do you have in mind?

When HS2 gets to Crewe the quickest route to London will be that way not Birmingham.

I'm thinking of through trains to London.
With classic WCML services slowed and cut short after HS2, if there is a through train to Wolverhampton/Shrewsbury at all it will not have an attractive journey time.
Via Crewe and HS2 will be significantly quicker (it already would be if the connections there were more convenient).
Chester/North Wales also stand to lose out on through services unless the wires are extended from Crewe by then.
I haven't seen anything proposed which avoids the hike from New St to HS2 at Curzon St.

 

[kieron]

There's always the Wirral part of Liverpool, part of which is also in Wales.

A part of Liverpool which is on the Wirral? Is that something like a Wool embassy?

When HS2 gets to Crewe the quickest route to London will be that way not Birmingham.

It may be (to be honest, I had no idea that it was faster via Birmingham now). I wasn't thinking of a dedicated train calling only at Shrewsbury and an interchange station, but rather as something which was useful for a variety of journeys including ones involving HS2. A high speed rail line is of little use if it takes ages for most people to get to it.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Only a little off-topic, but not worth its own thread, has anybody else seen the new "Carriage Shed" development at Chester.
This is the result of the new tower commercial block on the old East Car Park called City Place.
A new car park was built further away from the station, and now it has been connected by a walkway to the east end of the station.
The "Carriage Shed", which I think was the original Chester & Crewe terminus, was latterly a shambolic area of the car park, used by staff, BTP and other odd uses, sitting under a grubby overall roof.
It even had an abandoned platform using up pointless space, railway graffiti on the walls, and weeds growing in the stonework everywhere.

All this has now been restored to Victorian splendour and left as a pedestrian walkway into the station.
Even the roof has been re-glazed to match the rest of the station. You could have a party in there now!
Presumably the City Place developers paid for it as "public realm" space, as part of the planning permission.
It could easily have been left as a dump, or commercialised.

Well done to somebody (city council, Network Rail, architects etc?).
Now they just have to redevelop the much more public eyesore which is the old GW section of the station, now part of the west car park.
After the upgrade of Wakefield Kirkgate and Manchester Victoria, Chester's Platform 2 must offer about the shabbiest view on the northern network.

 

[notlob.divad]

After the upgrade of Wakefield Kirkgate and Manchester Victoria, Chester's Platform 2 must offer about the shabbiest view on the northern network.

I raise you Edge Hill Platform 4.

 

[Jona26]

Only a little off-topic, but not worth its own thread, has anybody else seen the new "Carriage Shed" development at Chester.
This is the result of the new tower commercial block on the old East Car Park called City Place.
A new car park was built further away from the station, and now it has been connected by a walkway to the east end of the station.
The "Carriage Shed", which I think was the original Chester & Crewe terminus, was latterly a shambolic area of the car park, used by staff, BTP and other odd uses, sitting under a grubby overall roof.
It even had an abandoned platform using up pointless space, railway graffiti on the walls, and weeds growing in the stonework everywhere.

All this has now been restored to Victorian splendour and left as a pedestrian walkway into the station.
Even the roof has been re-glazed to match the rest of the station. You could have a party in there now!
Presumably the City Place developers paid for it as "public realm" space, as part of the planning permission.
It could easily have been left as a dump, or commercialised.

Well done to somebody (city council, Network Rail, architects etc?).
Now they just have to redevelop the much more public eyesore which is the old GW section of the station, now part of the west car park.
After the upgrade of Wakefield Kirkgate and Manchester Victoria, Chester's Platform 2 must offer about the shabbiest view on the northern network.

I walk through that way to work on a daily basis now, rather than via the exit on the old parcels platform, and agree the developers have made a good job of it.

There was a community event held there the weekend before last but unfortunately prior commitments meant I couldn't attend.

Also the site of the WW2 operations bunker has been outlined on the ground in contrasting stone work and an interpretation board placed on the adjacent wall.

One of the neighbouring Lloyds Banking Group buildings Premier House) is due to be vacated this week but I don't know if demolition will occur straight away or not. This space will also form part of the City Place development.

 

[Sox]

I walk through that way to work on a daily basis now, rather than via the exit on the old parcels platform, and agree the developers have made a good job of it....

Read somewhere that the overall proposal includes improved (pedestrian) interconnectivity between canal and station.

I managed to walk from Waitrose, over the canal footbridge, via Lloyds car park to the carriage shed but it was a bit "up hill and down dale" and I had to ask bank employees for directions (unfortunately, some of whom were shortly to be made redundant under the redevelopment proposals).

 

[The Planner]

I'm thinking of through trains to London.
With classic WCML services slowed and cut short after HS2, if there is a through train to Wolverhampton/Shrewsbury at all it will not have an attractive journey time.
Via Crewe and HS2 will be significantly quicker (it already would be if the connections there were more convenient).
Chester/North Wales also stand to lose out on through services unless the wires are extended from Crewe by then.
I haven't seen anything proposed which avoids the hike from New St to HS2 at Curzon St.

I would be very surprised if a through train to Shrewsbury from Euston, even possibly to the Cambrian isn't there post HS2.