Wrexham redouble

[transmanche]

I agree with that (and I'm definitely not of the Nigel Farage persuasion either).., every time I catch a train from Bangor there is, without fail, a group of Chinese students waiting....but why not?

Why not indeed. There's a growing middle class in China, who have the resources to send their children to university in the UK. The students have money to spend and this provides jobs in the UK. And as they pay higher tuition fees, they help by subsidising bursaries for UK students. So bring it on, I say!

 

[Gareth Marston]

Why not indeed. There's a growing middle class in China, who have the resources to send their children to university in the UK. The students have money to spend and this provides jobs in the UK. And as they pay higher tuition fees, they help by subsidising bursaries for UK students. So bring it on, I say!

The Chinese students are always a good bet for being in the wrong portion on Cambrian trains after leaving Shrewsbury, even seen them going to Wrexham. Though Glyndwr uni is having a bit of a clear out of non nationals at the moment.

 

[merlodlliw]

Rhyl is a major holiday resort Bob and merits it's service I feel 1TPH is adequate and the loadings from Wrexham merit this,

Well TDK I lived in Rhyl for many years,and still travel there by train,its not a major holiday resort any longer,four up trains an hour between 1500 & 1600 in February does not display crowded platforms, the train I returned on the 1508 had myself and one other on the platform,this was the ATW following the 1500 VT.
Perhaps you could tell me where the Capital spend money WG is providing for the Wrexham redouble could be better spent within the Wales rail system budget,
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NR won't have even entertained it unless the WG stumped up the cash under its N-S journey time scheme. I imagine the business case is weak at best.

Did WG pay all of the improvements between Bersham & Salop, I was under the impression NR made a contribution of £Millions.

So why is the business case weak.

 

[The Planner]

Without the money that WG have stumped up it would have been way down the list, simple as.

 

[cymro inside]

there are 2tph from Rhyl for most of the day,the reason there are 4tph at this time of afternoon is so that the units can be in Piccadilly to work the 1650 1720 and 1750 services back from Manchester, in fact this pattern is to the detriment of coast passengers as it means that the 1508 from Llandudno and the 1434 from Holyhead follow each other along the coast and then there is a 50 minute gap in the service from Rhyl, it is a trifle disingenuous of you to make this 4tph claim as though it were the norm all day from Rhyl.as I have said before I have no problem with extra services from Wrexham but why have a go at the coast all the time?

 

[Gareth Marston]

there are 2tph from Rhyl for most of the day,the reason there are 4tph at this time of afternoon is so that the units can be in Piccadilly to work the 1650 1720 and 1750 services back from Manchester, in fact this pattern is to the detriment of coast passengers as it means that the 1508 from Llandudno and the 1434 from Holyhead follow each other along the coast and then there is a 50 minute gap in the service from Rhyl, it is a trifle disingenuous of you to make this 4tph claim as though it were the norm all day from Rhyl.as I have said before I have no problem with extra services from Wrexham but why have a go at the coast all the time?

It's not just in the afternoon that there's some off peak tail chasing down the coast it's a problem generated by having two operators wanting to path trains over the whole length of a route and the "political" nature of needing north to South Wales trains. Around a quarter of the ATW services could be thinned out without any detrimental effect to the overall market if time tabling with VT was coordinated.
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Without the money that WG have stumped up it would have been way down the list, simple as.

That's the old favourite answer with European money in that it supposedly "unlocks" other funding whereas in reality it distorts priorities by sucking in more money to where money has already gone.

 

[jones_bangor]

In that case I find it amazing that a business case can be made for redoubling even a 5 mile stretch of railway, with presumably additional pointwork and signalling, but with no detailed plans for any additional services, but I suppose that's the difference between devolved government and England.

The project was dumped by the Minister, then revived because of local "uproar".

I can't imagine the cost benefit is at all favourable, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it questioned again.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The project was dumped by the Minister, then revived because of local "uproar".

I can't imagine the cost benefit is at all favourable, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it questioned again.

No better or worse than the A465 heads of valleys dualling whose CBA ratio was based on ever growing traffic levels that have not materialised, there's £800 million plus being spent on this project compared to £45. There were hints that the cost overruns on the A465 were a big factor in the initial stalling of the Wrexham re double.

 

[merlodlliw]

there are 2tph from Rhyl for most of the day,the reason there are 4tph at this time of afternoon is so that the units can be in Piccadilly to work the 1650 1720 and 1750 services back from Manchester, in fact this pattern is to the detriment of coast passengers as it means that the 1508 from Llandudno and the 1434 from Holyhead follow each other along the coast and then there is a 50 minute gap in the service from Rhyl, it is a trifle disingenuous of you to make this 4tph claim as though it were the norm all day from Rhyl.as I have said before I have no problem with extra services from Wrexham but why have a go at the coast all the time?

I was just pointing out the four trains in one hour in the afternoon,I did say between 1500 & 1600, If you look at the early morning timetables,there is another instance of four up trains departing Rhyl within one hour,I visit Rhyl often having friends there & it just struck me of the frequency within the hour I last visited. No question in the peak three months of summer they will be required.

he project was dumped by the Minister, then revived because of local "uproar".

Jones Bangor

I can't imagine the cost benefit is at all favourable, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it questioned again.

It was revived due to uproar,we are good at putting pressure on, the £millions ring fenced was at risk of being used to buy Cardiff Airport or highways such as the heads of the valleys & others, it was no surprise everyone rounded on the Minister and First Minister demanding to know what was going on with the redouble funding for Wrexham,due to pressure the Minister relented,WG then used reserves to buy Cardiff Airport.The redoubling within the Ministers own patch at Gowerton (population 9 K) with an extra 90 trains a week,was an excellent example of you and them for us to use,

 

[Welshman]

Well TDK I lived in Rhyl for many years,and still travel there by train,its not a major holiday resort any longer,four up trains an hour between 1500 & 1600 in February does not display crowded platforms, the train I returned on the 1508 had myself and one other on the platform,this was the ATW following the 1500 VT.

To be fair, there are four up trains between 1500 & 1600 because of the Virgin service to Euston at 1500, which does not run hourly, and the timetable pattern of ATW's Llandudno-Manchesters changing to provide an extra peak-hour Manchester-Chester service at 1719.

Go forward to the next hour to 1600-1700, and you find only two up trains!

Indeed, the standard basic timetable is two trains per hour - x12 to Manchester and x41 to Cardiff/Birmingham, with 7 extra Virgin services to Euston/Birmingham added at irregular times throughout the day.

P.S. I didn't intend to duplicate cymro inside's post - I've only just noticed it, and so hadn't read it before making this!

As for Rhyl no longer being a holiday resort, there might not be as many of the bucket-and-spade variety on the sands, [and they certainly can't visit the Pavillion or stroll on the pier any more], but there are still many holiday-makers using the caravans and holiday camps on the coast between Abergele and Prestatyn, and visiting Rhyl. Enough to justify Arriva Wales buses running an extra half-hourly open-top service along that stretch of coast in the summer months.

And a good many of these still use the station at Rhyl during the summer months, when the normal twice-hourly 2/3 car services become very cosy indeed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not just in the afternoon that there's some off peak tail chasing down the coast it's a problem generated by having two operators wanting to path trains over the whole length of a route and the "political" nature of needing north to South Wales trains. Around a quarter of the ATW services could be thinned out without any detrimental effect to the overall market if time tabling with VT was coordinated.

True - the timetable could be tidied-up if ATW and VT co-ordinated their services on the Llandudno Junction-Chester section.

But I doubt that could happen[except perhaps on Sundays, when the only four up trains from 1140 to 1526 are provided by VT [ATW crews enjoying a long Sunday lunch!], because of VT being constrained by available slots between Crewe and Euston on the WCML, and ATW having a similar constraint through the busy Ordsall Lane /Piccadilly section of their Manchester service.

 

[merlodlliw]

to be fair, there are four up trains between 1500 & 1600 because of the virgin service to euston at 1500, which does not run hourly, and the timetable pattern of atw's llandudno-manchesters changing to provide an extra peak-hour manchester-chester service at 1719.

Go forward to the next hour to 1600-1700, and you find only two up trains!

Indeed, the standard basic timetable is two trains per hour - x12 to manchester and x41 to cardiff/birmingham, with 7 extra virgin services to euston/birmingham added at irregular times throughout the day.

P.s. I didn't intend to duplicate cymro inside's post - i've only just noticed it, and so hadn't read it before making this!

As for rhyl no longer being a holiday resort, there might not be as many of the bucket-and-spade variety on the sands, [and they certainly can't visit the pavillion or stroll on the pier any more], but there are still many holiday-makers using the caravans and holiday camps on the coast between abergele and prestatyn, and visiting rhyl. Enough to justify arriva wales buses running an extra half-hourly open-top service along that stretch of coast in the summer months.

I agree about the caravans,and yes many use the train during the peak weeks of June/July/August, however the winter is long, as for Vt & ATW it still makes four in an hour twice a day going to Chester, I only point this out having lived in Rhyl between 1949 & 1973 when it was a nice place to holiday,you mention the Old pavilion long gone, now the key attraction of Rhyl, the "Sun Centre" is shut and it looks bad for the "New Pavilion" next door with funding withdrawn.
PS I dont recall four up trains in an hour between Rhyl & Chester in winter even with the local stopper. We simply want a better service in the Chester direction as well, but in Winter we have population,whereas Rhyl does not.

 

[Welshman]

At risk of prolonging this, I want to say I agree with you totally that Wrexham should enjoy more than 1tph in each direction.
It's just that I also think[from experience now], that the present basic timetable of 2tph in both directions from Rhyl should not be reduced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

True - the timetable could be tidied-up if ATW and VT co-ordinated their services on the Llandudno Junction-Chester section.

But I doubt that could happen[except perhaps on Sundays, when the only four up trains from 1140 to 1526 are provided by VT [ATW crews enjoying a long Sunday lunch!], because of VT being constrained by available slots between Crewe and Euston on the WCML, and ATW having a similar constraint through the busy Ordsall Lane /Piccadilly section of their Manchester service.

VT and AW are only following the frequencies laid down in their franchise specs by the SRA/DfT.
VT has to offer so many frequencies to London, and AW ditto to Chester/Llandudno/Holyhead.
Very little they can do about it until the next franchises are let.

 

[merlodlliw]

At risk of prolonging this, I want to say I agree with you totally that Wrexham should enjoy more than 1tph in each direction.
It's just that I also think[from experience now], that the present basic timetable of 2tph in both directions from Rhyl should not be reduced.

Agree,totally.

VT and AW are only following the frequencies laid down in their franchise specs by the SRA/DfT.
VT has to offer so many frequencies to London, and AW ditto to Chester/Llandudno/Holyhead.
Very little they can do about it until the next franchises are let.

Well put, given the choice, Id have taken the ten coach VT to Chester in place of the sprinter I used.

 

[quarella]

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Is there a need for an increased train service between Wrexham and Chester when from 0530 to 2330 approx there is a bus service at it's least frequent every half hour increasing to every 12 minutes between 0630 and 1830 with leather seats, free Wi-fi and power points serving Chester city centre and the not centrally located railway
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Either you think folk only travel between Wrexham and Chester or your a great believer in multi modal journeys.

I was specifically referring to the Wrexham - Chester leg which I would expect to be a primary passenger flow. I believe in using whichever mode of is most suitable for my needs at the time either individually or a combination based on such things as convenience and cost.
I also put this forward as the ATW Twit feed suggests that it is impossible to travel on a train without Wi-fi and plugs(sic). (You plug into a SOCKET!!:mad: ) Both of which are available.

 

[TDK]

Well TDK I lived in Rhyl for many years,and still travel there by train,its not a major holiday resort any longer,four up trains an hour between 1500 & 1600 in February does not display crowded platforms, the train I returned on the 1508 had myself and one other on the platform,this was the ATW following the 1500 VT.
Perhaps you could tell me where the Capital spend money WG is providing for the Wrexham redouble could be better spent within the Wales rail system budget,
[k.

OK below is a list:

1. Improve the CIS system
2. Get new stock to replace the ageing 142's & 150's
3. Improve station facilities at major hub stations
4. Fit toilet tanks to the existing stock
5. Work with NR to get the whole of the line between Saltney Junction and Shrewsbury re-signalled.
6. Give the driver's a 10k pay rise

I feel the above will benefit existing passengers and new alike a lot more than partially redoubling a line that really works quite well in it's current form in relation to the current passenger base. Rhyl Station happens to be on a line that is used heavily for passengers to Bangor and Holyhead and to be fair Bob it is better stopping there than not stopping at all. I suspect if there was not the demand for Bangor and Holyhead then there would certainly not be 4 TPH!

 

[quarella]

6. Give the driver's a 10k pay rise

Less than RPI. Wow!

 

[Llanigraham]

5. Work with NR to get the whole of the line between Saltney Junction and Shrewsbury re-signalled.

Already planned for 2017, I believe.

 

[Gareth Marston]

OK below is a list:

1. Improve the CIS system
2. Get new stock to replace the ageing 142's & 150's
3. Improve station facilities at major hub stations
4. Fit toilet tanks to the existing stock
5. Work with NR to get the whole of the line between Saltney Junction and Shrewsbury re-signalled.
6. Give the driver's a 10k pay rise

I feel the above will benefit existing passengers and new alike a lot more than partially redoubling a line that really works quite well in it's current form in relation to the current passenger base. Rhyl Station happens to be on a line that is used heavily for passengers to Bangor and Holyhead and to be fair Bob it is better stopping there than not stopping at all. I suspect if there was not the demand for Bangor and Holyhead then there would certainly not be 4 TPH!

Number 6 really shows you don't live in the real world, we won't get out of bed for less than £50k per annum? A lot of Drivers will be embarrassed by that!
You need a spell on a minimum wage job on a zero hours contract and see how a lot of people have to live.

 

[TDK]

Number 6 really shows you don't live in the real world, we won't get out of bed for less than £50k per annum? A lot of Drivers will be embarrassed by that!
You need a spell on a minimum wage job on a zero hours contract and see how a lot of people have to live.

FGS I put a wink next to it some of you bods are just tunnel visioned and for your info Graham it looks like you do not live in the real World if you cannot recognise a bit of humour pal.

 

[Gareth Marston]

FGS I put a wink next to it some of you bods are just tunnel visioned and for your info Graham it looks like you do not live in the real World if you cannot recognise a bit of humour pal.

Hard to see on a Samsung 3 in semi dark on Shrewsbury station apologies.

 

[edwin_m]

Hard to see on a Samsung 3 in semi dark on Shrewsbury station apologies.

So should that be:

7 improve the lighting on Shrewsbury station

 

[Gareth Marston]

So should that be:

8 issue business travellers with tablets with bigger screens for accessing Rail UK Forums.

 

[merlodlliw]

OK below is a list:

3. Improve station facilities at major hub stations

Do you actually mean Welsh Government spending its Capital money on the three English Hub Stations, out of interest.

Rhyl Station happens to be on a line that is used heavily for passengers to Bangor and Holyhead and to be fair Bob it is better stopping there than not stopping at all. I suspect if there was not the demand for Bangor and Holyhead then there would certainly not be 4 TPH!

I do not feel there is demand in Winter for the four up trains between the hours of 1500 & 1600 at Rhyl,having used the service last week,good luck to Rhyl, we look forward to extra trains at Wrexham with twice the passenger base and potential.

 

[Welshman]

I do not feel there is demand in Winter for the four up trains between the hours of 1500 & 1600 at Rhyl,having used the service last week,good luck to Rhyl,

Sorry, but I thought we'd tried to explain on the previous page why such a situation occurs!

But at the risk of repeating myself, it is not passenger demand, rather a timetabling fluke caused by the Virgin service to Euston[operating at an irregular pattern for reasons already given], and the ATW service to Cardiff[regular pattern] being joined by the normal hourly ATW service to Manchester and an extra one.

I wonder which of these services you would suggest be cancelled? The 1500 VT to Euston, leaving passengers disembarking from Dublin stranded at Holyhead along with more disgruntled passengers at Euston finding their 1810 return service to Chester, Wrexham and Holyhead is no more? Or perhaps the 1508 or 1536 to Manchester, leaving similar home-going commuters stuck on platform 14 at Piccadilly wondering where their train has gone? Or perhaps the 1544 to Wrexham, the Marches line and Cardiff, leaving a 4-hour gap in the service?

This fluke occurs only between 1500 & 1600 Mondays-Fridays. For the remainder of the day it is the normal 2tph, plus the extra VTs to Euston.

 

[berneyarms]

Sorry, but I thought we'd tried to explain on the previous page why such a situation occurs!

But at the risk of repeating myself, it is not passenger demand, rather a timetabling fluke caused by the Virgin service to Euston[operating at an irregular pattern for reasons already given], and the ATW service to Cardiff[regular pattern] being joined by the normal hourly ATW service to Manchester and an extra one.

I wonder which of these services you would suggest be cancelled? The 1500 VT to Euston, leaving passengers disembarking from Dublin stranded at Holyhead along with more disgruntled passengers at Euston finding their 1810 return service to Chester, Wrexham and Holyhead is no more? Or perhaps the 1508 or 1536 to Manchester, leaving similar home-going commuters stuck on platform 14 at Piccadilly wondering where their train has gone? Or perhaps the 1544 to Wrexham, the Marches line and Cardiff, leaving a 4-hour gap in the service?

This fluke occurs only between 1500 & 1600 Mondays-Fridays. For the remainder of the day it is the normal 2tph, plus the extra VTs to Euston.

There is no ferry connection into the 1355 VT service from Holyhead.

It's purely for the North Wales market.

It provides a ferry connection outbound only.

 

[Welshman]

Thank you.
I stand corrected re the absence of ferry connection into the 1355 off Holyhead.

However, as you say, there is a ferry connection out of the outward service [0910 off Euston], and I suppose VT wants the stock back in Euston for the 1810 return journey somehow!

So if the train has to run, better to stop and collect any potential passengers?

 

[pablo]

VT's is an hourly service out of Euston. It could run fast to Chester to satisfy equanimity.

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry, but I thought we'd tried to explain on the previous page why such a situation occurs!

But at the risk of repeating myself, it is not passenger demand, rather a timetabling fluke caused by the Virgin service to Euston[operating at an irregular pattern for reasons already given], and the ATW service to Cardiff[regular pattern] being joined by the normal hourly ATW service to Manchester and an extra one.

This fluke occurs only between 1500 & 1600 Mondays-Fridays. For the remainder of the day it is the normal 2tph, plus the extra VTs to Euston.

Has I pointed out earlier, four up trains within an hour also occurs from Rhyl between 0600 & 0700,although this would be a busier period for a small seaside resort in winter no doubt.I appreciate the reasons.

 

[Squaddie]

Has I pointed out earlier, four up trains within an hour also occurs from Rhyl between 0600 & 0700,although this would be a busier period for a small seaside resort in winter no doubt.

If you're going to quote highly selective statistics, it's worth pointing out that Wrexham gets two trains to Shrewsbury between 0730 and 0800 - that's the equivalent of four trains an hour, too.