XC Voyager Refurbishment

[sprinterguy]

During the much reduced Covid timetable (services reduced by half) services were (allegedly) changed to double voyagers. Now we are past Covid, and customers numbers up again, accepting still not pre-covid, the double voyagers have disappeared. Some of the pre-covid services are back, but not many. Couple or Reading - Newcastle's per day. So surely doubling up in the short term, unit wise, is doable.

Most of the double sets were split to provide units to reinstate the hourly Manchester - Bristol service. The Crosscountry Voyager fleet is fully committed with the present diagrams.

I may be wildy wrong, but I seem to remember it was stated at the time as being too difficult/requiring too much structural work, to add windows to the former shop area and convert it to additional saloon space.

The exhaust runs up through that section of the body on one side, so any installed seating would have to work around that for starters.

 

[fgwrich]

Wouldn't it then be a good idea to relocate the cycle and large luggage spaces tlo the crumple zones so that the space they currently occupy can be used for seats?

The exhaust runs up through that section of the body on one side, so any installed seating would have to work around that for starters.

Good luck trying to cut any extra window holes into a 24 year old Steel Monocoque body. Although the shop removal may have given XC some additional extra luggage and cycle space, there’s a lot not removed behind those panels including as mentioned above the Exhaust pipe, an Air Conditioning unit and various other bits of equipment - even the wall panels along the cycle side weren’t changed. I think modifying the Voyagers to that extent is a no-goer now.

 

[class397tpe]

The baseline for XC improvements really ought to be for every service to be a double Voyager; internal refurbs would be an added bonus!

I think you’d need all the class 220, 221, and 222 units to double up every service. IIRC there were 53 diagrams pre Covid, less diagrams now.

If you took on all 221s and 222s, and reformed the 222s a bit, you’d have:

34 4-car 220s
4 4-car 221s
40 5-car 221s
4 4-car 222s
17 5-car 222s
4 8-car 222s

Which they could aim to run as:
Around 35 diagrams of 9-car 220/221
Around 2 diagrams of 10-car 221
Around 4 diagrams of 9-car 222
Around 5 diagrams of 10-car 222
Around 3 diagrams of 8-car 222 (single units)
So around 49 diagrams of full doubled-up units total. Give or take a bit with the 9 vs 10 car combinations based on availability.

Gives 4 spare 220/221s and 4 spare 222s (one of which is 8-car).

Obviously this is pie in the sky and the DfT will never approve the funding.

 

[Energy]

Good luck trying to cut any extra window holes into a 24 year old Steel Monocoque body. Although the shop removal may have given XC some additional extra luggage and cycle space, there’s a lot not removed behind those panels including as mentioned above the Exhaust pipe, an Air Conditioning unit and various other bits of equipment - even the wall panels along the cycle side weren’t changed. I think modifying the Voyagers to that extent is a no-goer now.

Shop would be difficult but I'm curious how structural the toilets are. Cutting holes for windows is obviously a no go but you could potentially slot in a space saver toilet and luggage storage in the current disabled toilet inside space, then stick seats in the current luggage stacks.

Something like this could be interesting:

 

[Towers]

Shop would be difficult but I'm curious how structural the toilets are. Cutting holes for windows is obviously a no go but you could potentially slot in a space saver toilet and luggage storage in the current disabled toilet inside space, then stick seats in the current luggage stacks.

Something like this could be interesting:

View attachment 152989

Also worth bearing in mind that IETs have seats installed into windowless areas intended for luggage stacks; indeed they’re even within the inward taper of the bodywork! So, given how poor the capacity is on Voyagers, while it isn’t ideal it’s not without precedent and would gain some additional seating.

 

[superalbs]

I don't see why they couldn't have a 442 style lounge area, would provide some casual seating for shorter journeys.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why they couldn't have a 442 style lounge area, would provide some casual seating for shorter journeys.

I did think about the idea of an area of unreserved side facing seating.

 

[Danfilm007]

I think you’d need all the class 220, 221, and 222 units to double up every service. IIRC there were 53 diagrams pre Covid, less diagrams now.

If you took on all 221s and 222s, and reformed the 222s a bit, you’d have:

34 4-car 220s
4 4-car 221s
40 5-car 221s
4 4-car 222s
17 5-car 222s
4 8-car 222s

Which they could aim to run as:
Around 35 diagrams of 9-car 220/221
Around 2 diagrams of 10-car 221
Around 4 diagrams of 9-car 222
Around 5 diagrams of 10-car 222
Around 3 diagrams of 8-car 222 (single units)
So around 49 diagrams of full doubled-up units total. Give or take a bit with the 9 vs 10 car combinations based on availability.

Gives 4 spare 220/221s and 4 spare 222s (one of which is 8-car).

Obviously this is pie in the sky and the DfT will never approve the funding.

Would it be more valuable to split the 8 car 222s into the 4 car ones? So you have 21 5 car and 4 7 car which could be used on fixed formations?

 

[Wolfie]

They are utterly dreadful refurbished or unrefurbished. These 4/5 car units need to replace the 170s and a whole new 800 fleet ordered for the long distance services. 6 car minimum and 12 car for peak services. They need to stop messing around and get on with it.

The Avanti ones were far from dreadful. Refurbished they are decent albeit that l admit X-Country's stock needs some TLC. What there isn't is enough of them.
800s are dire and absolutely no more should be bought.

 

[Energy]

Would it be more valuable to split the 8 car 222s into the 4 car ones? So you have 21 5 car and 4 7 car which could be used on fixed formations?

I doubt XC would be able to get all the 220, 221 and 222s.

Taking on the 221s and playing around with the layout is a bit more realistic.

Also worth bearing in mind that IETs have seats installed into windowless areas intended for luggage stacks; indeed they’re even within the inward taper of the bodywork! So, given how poor the capacity is on Voyagers, while it isn’t ideal it’s not without precedent and would gain some additional seating.

Depends on how much of the toilet you can remove. If it's all of it then I don't see  unreserved windowless seating as a big problem.

Passengers (who care about the window) on longer journeys can change seats when they become available.

Obviously windowless seats shouldn't be on new stock but it's better than no seat

 

[BanburyBlue]

Most of the double sets were split to provide units to reinstate the hourly Manchester - Bristol service. The Crosscountry Voyager fleet is fully committed with the present diagrams.

The exhaust runs up through that section of the body on one side, so any installed seating would have to work around that for starters.

Great - so as per usual, Birmingham to the South Coast is the poor relation.

 

[Energy]

Great - so as per usual, Birmingham to the South Coast is the poor relation.

It was also to provide voyagers for Newcastle to Reading, though for 5tpd I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

[Wolfie]

They’re reliable and comfortable and provide a much much smoother ride than the Hitachis. The only real problem is there just aren’t enough of them.

Given a choice of a relatively well padded seat of a Voyager or an 800 with its upright hard as stone seat and those constant shudders and bumps for 5 hours my money is on the Voyager every time

Having said that I could really do without the interior of my train looking like a child was let loose with the pink crayon, what are they thinking, it’s just horrific

Balanced and fair.

 

[Towers]

I doubt XC would be able to get all the 220, 221 and 222s.

Taking on the 221s and playing around with the layout is a bit more realistic.

Depends on how much of the toilet you can remove. If it's all of it then I don't see  unreserved windowless seating as a big problem.

Passengers (who care about the window) on longer journeys can change seats when they become available.

Obviously windowless seats shouldn't be on new stock but it's better than no seat

Some decoration of the walls, as per the scenic vinyls in the bogs, would help relieve it a bit.

 

[Energy]

Some decoration of the walls, as per the scenic vinyls in the bogs, would help relieve it a bit.

Might make the tunnels into New St look a bit better

 

[BanburyBlue]

It was also to provide voyagers for Newcastle to Reading, though for 5tpd I'm not sure it's worth it.

Probably going off track, but pre-Covid this was also hourly. So are these coming back?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some decoration of the walls, as per the scenic vinyls in the bogs, would help relieve it a bit.

That and a thoughtful approach to lighting.

 

[swt_passenger]

Probably going off track, but pre-Covid this was also hourly. So are these coming back?

Jun 25 is the intended date to reintroduce a “mostly hourly” Newcastle <> Reading service. 12 extra services per weekday.

 

[I'm here now]

I think that they just need to shave off the seat width and give a longer fold down table. I do hope that the current seats are retained in some form because 80x class style seating is brutal in comparison.

 

[Towers]

Might make the tunnels into New St look a bit better

That’s the best bit of the journey!!

I think that they just need to shave off the seat width and give a longer fold down table. I do hope that the current seats are retained in some form because 80x class style seating is brutal in comparison.

I fear they won’t be; as someone said further up the thread, the seat backs & sides are absolutely battered and really wouldn’t be befitting of any halfway decent refurb if left as they are. I can’t imagine them being individually hammered back straight again but you never know I suppose!

 

[Energy]

I think that they just need to shave off the seat width and give a longer fold down table. I do hope that the current seats are retained in some form because 80x class style seating is brutal in comparison.

New seats are coming.

The current ones are battered. I reckon it'll be the pendolino refurb seats.

 

[fgwrich]

Jun 25 is the intended date to reintroduce a “mostly hourly” Newcastle <> Reading service. 12 extra services per weekday.

I don’t suppose any of those will be returning back further to Winchester / Eastleigh / Southampton? Or are we sadly confined to Hourly on the XC timetable from now on?

 

[swt_passenger]

I don’t suppose any of those will be returning back further to Winchester / Eastleigh / Southampton? Or are we sadly confined to Hourly on the XC timetable from now on?

Extensions are definitely not mentioned. This has also been posted in another recent thread somewhere.

 

[Trainman40083]

Probably quite expensive for an end result of 4 or 5 extra rows of seats without any windows at all

I thought there was a reason they didn't put seats there. Apart from lack of windows.

 

[Russel]

I'm not sure lack of windows in the old buffet area is as much of an issue as it initially sounds, have a look around on most trains, a good proportion of passengers don't look up from their phones or tablets from when they get on to when they get off...

Personally when I've watched a film on my tablet on trains in the past, I've searched for a seat without a window just to avoid the glare.

It could even be marketed as an area for working!

 

[MCR247]

I thought there was a reason they didn't put seats there. Apart from lack of windows.

I'm not sure lack of windows in the old buffet area is as much of an issue as it initially sounds, have a look around on most trains, a good proportion of passengers don't look up from their phones or tablets from when they get on to when they get off...

Personally when I've watched a film on my tablet on trains in the past, I've searched for a seat without a window just to avoid the glare.

It could even be marketed as an area for working!

Whilst the lack of window may not be a problem for some passengers, I think the issue might be that it doesn’t really help the case when it comes to weighing up the costs and benefits of the work. I don’t think the work would be cheap, it would likely make the refurbishment take longer whilst still inevitably being a bit of a bodge job. A lot of work for a few extra seats without windows in a vestibule area. I dread to think how it’d go down in the media/on social media, with it being a double whammy of “trains bad” and “waste of taxpayer/farepayer money”

 

[AJDesiro]

New seats are coming.

The current ones are battered. I reckon it'll be the pendolino refurb seats.

Anyone fancy betting on the Fainsa Comrail? (Thameslink style)

 

[irish_rail]

Great - so as per usual, Birmingham to the South Coast is the poor relation.

Maybe try doing a 4 car set all the way from Birmngham to Plymouth before feeling too hard done by yes? That's 3 and a half hours stood by a toilet. At least on the south coast route, most people are not on board for quite so long. In my experience there are plenty of doubled up voyagers on the south coast route anyway. Yes, it appears a busy route, BUT, most of the journeys are around about an hour or so. The south west route has a lot more 2 or 3 hour journeys on it. But we still have not enough double sets and feel the poor relation out west.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Maybe try doing a 4 car set all the way from Birmngham to Plymouth before feeling too hard done by yes? That's 3 and a half hours stood by a toilet. At least on the south coast route, most people are not on board for quite so long. In my experience there are plenty of doubled up voyagers on the south coast route anyway. Yes, it appears a busy route, BUT, most of the journeys are around about an hour or so. The south west route has a lot more 2 or 3 hour journeys on it. But we still have not enough double sets and feel the poor relation out west.

It’s no different to saying the West is the poor relation of GWR while 5 cars form the majority of South Wales services though, which you often do. I think the truth is plenty of XC services are short formed and additional capacity is badly needed everywhere.

 

[BanburyBlue]

Maybe try doing a 4 car set all the way from Birmngham to Plymouth before feeling too hard done by yes? That's 3 and a half hours stood by a toilet. At least on the south coast route, most people are not on board for quite so long. In my experience there are plenty of doubled up voyagers on the south coast route anyway. Yes, it appears a busy route, BUT, most of the journeys are around about an hour or so. The south west route has a lot more 2 or 3 hour journeys on it. But we still have not enough double sets and feel the poor relation out west.

I haven’t seen a double voyager on the South Coast for months.