Zones 7,8 and 9

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aspierail

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At the moment the zones 7,8 and 9 cover parts of Hertfordshire and Buckinghamshire for example Amersham, Chesham, Bushey and so on however do you think it zones 7,8 and 9 should cover other places outside of the Greater London area or even slightly outside the M25 (London Orbital).
 
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ntg

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Yes. The current system is horribly inconsistent. Currently some buses operate outside the zone boundaries. My town, Potters Bar, has one bus route, formerly two, that can use Oyster into London, but not on the rail, and is as close to London as Watford.

Hertford East will soon have Oyster, yet Hertford North (which is actually about a mile west and slightly south) will not.

So this will definitely place a massive pressure to have an all encompassing Zone 7-9 in other places, and hopefully, the extension of Oyster to the wider London commuter belt.

I know the government is waiting for ITSO and that's why they've been reluctant so far, but it's not happening any time soon, and Oyster is ready to go now.
 

12CSVT

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Isn't the reason for zones 7, 8 and 9 to cover places outside Greater London served by London Underground and London Overground ?

There is inconsistency in that Watford underground station is in zone 7, Watford High Street in zone 8 and Watford Junction in zone 9 (whilst Watford North, which is served only by London Midland, is outside the travelcard zones altogether).
 

causton

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Isn't the reason for zones 7, 8 and 9 to cover places outside Greater London served by London Underground and London Overground ?

There is inconsistency in that Watford underground station is in zone 7, Watford High Street in zone 8 and Watford Junction in zone 9 (whilst Watford North, which is served only by London Midland, is outside the travelcard zones altogether).
Not quite.

If you've ever been there and understand the layout you will realise why Watford North is outside of the zones.
Watford Junction is also outside of the zones but you can use Oyster PAYG there - and if you buy a travelcard from a tube station that includes Watford Junction you can travel back and forth to it, but if you buy a travelcard from Watford Junction itself, it's a normal outboundary travelcard so you can only make one return journey into the zones and back!

Anyway, they make sense when compared to the lines they are on and the stations around them I think! Watford North is on a tiny branch line with a 45 minute service, hardly Oyster-friendly :P

To be honest, I think that they should work as quickly as possible to introduce ITSO in the stations just outside the zones e.g. to Welwyn Garden City etc, then as Oyster is deprecated and London moves over to ITSO they can then introduce it further into London :)

Don't know how that will work with the whole Oyster publicity, will there be an ITSO card called Oyster just so people don't have to learn the intricacies of the ITSO system and so they can just use the card as they have been and not notice the difference?
 

danuzumi

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Yeah i think it should. Where i live its not covered by the underground (I'm just a little bit beyond Zone 6) but its covered by Oyster PAYG meaning i have to pay an extension fare, both ways. Dont think theres a cap on that. I think it should cover other places but thats just my opinion. I also thing Oyster should be extended a little bit
 

swt_passenger

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The zone 7, 8, and 9 fares are specific to the stations on that route only. There is no guarantee that any other route's stations just beyond zone 6 will fit those fares.

That's why the c2c stations beyond zone 6 that accept Oyster PAYG are not in numbered zones, but for Oyster's internal systems are in 'pseudo Zone' G.

As mentioned earlier, Watford Junction itself is beyond zone 8 but not in zone 9, it is in 'pseudo Zone' W.

Zones G and W are not publicised on maps - they are there behind the scenes to allow for specific PAYG fares to those destinations.
 

Pink

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I think that the boundary should travel a bit further out into Kent, as at the moment Dartford isn't even zone 6, yet when ive traveled through the station ive noticed people with freedom pass's using the station to get through
 

Deerfold

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Yes. The current system is horribly inconsistent. Currently some buses operate outside the zone boundaries. My town, Potters Bar, has one bus route, formerly two, that can use Oyster into London, but not on the rail, and is as close to London as Watford.
I think you're missing out - both the 298 and 313 accept Oyster.

Both the 84 and 610 used to accept Oyster on the Southern parts of their routes (the 84 more recently - until the end of last year).
 

Deerfold

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I think that the boundary should travel a bit further out into Kent, as at the moment Dartford isn't even zone 6, yet when ive traveled through the station ive noticed people with freedom pass's using the station to get through
Freedom passes are valid at Dartford even though normal travelcards are not.

I'm sure a lot of people would be keen on Zones 7-9 being expanded but unfortunately TOCs don't seem to be - so as we've seen even if they want to go into Oyster they want higher fares than in those zones (thus zones W and G).

There aren't many zones left free that Oyster can cope with so it would make sense to have ringed zones going out further but if it does happen don't be suprised if these are (for example) A,B,C... leaving the current 1-9 as they are.
 

12CSVT

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Watford Junction is an odd, and ridiculous, situation.
The whole of Watford is a ridiculous situation - with Watford (Metropolitan Line) and Watford High Street being in different travelcard zones, Watford Junction being outside the travelcard zones but inside the Oyster PAYG area, and Watford North being outside Oyster.
 

Clip

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I think that the boundary should travel a bit further out into Kent, as at the moment Dartford isn't even zone 6, yet when ive traveled through the station ive noticed people with freedom pass's using the station to get through
Thing is though, just how far do you then keep pushing the boundry outwards?People just after Dartford would then start complaining and it just escalates. You have to draw the (boundry) line somewhere dont you?

It cant go on forever.
 

pitdiver

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As an aside. When I worked in the Booking Office at Watford Met and for some reason the line was blocked between Euston and Watford Jct it gave me great pleasure in charging excess fares to those punters who had a ticket for Watford Jct which wasn't valid at the Met station.

Also weren't zones 7.8.9 set up because the north end of the met is outside Greater London. There used to be another anomaly nothing really to do with fares. Met Police,City Police BTP, Herts Constabulary would get free travel on the Underground. However Thames Valley didn't. What police force covers Amersham, why of course TVP.
In theory if a suspect was on a train with a legitimate ticket at Amersham a TVP constable in theory would have had to buy a ticket.
 

jopsuk

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7-9 were previously A-D- I think the change was round about the introduction of Oyster?

If it was me setting limits, I'd try to define, on each line, the limits of "Metro" operation- and mght even go as far as to suggest changing stopping patterns and possibly redesigning stations. For instance, on the Great Northern, I'd suggest Welwyn Garden City and Hertford North as Zone 9 limits- with Moorgate trains going no further (other Loop trains/Letchworth and Stevenage terminators I'd send though Thameslinnk or into Kings Cross). On the West Anglia, I'd include Hertford East- and possibly Bishops Stortford (a bit further out, but the terminus of the Stratford stoppers). On the Great Eastern/Crossrail, Shenfield (obviously).

But drawing the line will always make you unpopular with those who use the next station out.
 

Railcar B

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The Watford situation will have to be sorted out by the time the Croxley Link is complete because the Met will then run through to Watford Junction!
 

Flamingo

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I've had a lot of people on trains to Reading who have insisted the zone 9 Olympic tickets covered them to Reading...
 

Deerfold

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The Watford situation will have to be sorted out by the time the Croxley Link is complete because the Met will then run through to Watford Junction!
Though it exists now even though London Overground already does reach Watford Junction.


7-9 were previously A-D- I think the change was round about the introduction of Oyster?
Indeed.

But my point was that the 7-9 fares are set too low for most TOCs so they would want different zones if they were to accept some of their stations entering the Zonal system (unless it was a mandatory system in any new franchise agreement or someone was prepared to make a significant financial payment to the TOCs to make the problem go away).


As an aside. When I worked in the Booking Office at Watford Met and for some reason the line was blocked between Euston and Watford Jct it gave me great pleasure in charging excess fares to those punters who had a ticket for Watford Jct which wasn't valid at the Met station.
Cheerfully? How jolly.


Also weren't zones 7.8.9 set up because the north end of the met is outside Greater London.
And yet the Central line trundles cheerfully through miles of Essex in Zone 6. Wonder if the decision at the time was down to managers of individual lines?
 
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Mojo

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The Watford situation will have to be sorted out by the time the Croxley Link is complete because the Met will then run through to Watford Junction!
Though it exists now even though London Overground already does reach Watford Junction.
I wouldn't have thought there would be anything to sort out; Watford Met is in Zone 7, and Watford High Street is in Zone 8. The new Ascot Rd and Watford Hospital stations could then fall into either of these zones without creating any new anomalies.
 

Mr Spock

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As an aside. When I worked in the Booking Office at Watford Met and for some reason the line was blocked between Euston and Watford Jct it gave me great pleasure in charging excess fares to those punters who had a ticket for Watford Jct which wasn't valid at the Met station.
.
Well the times that I have been sent to Watford Met I have always been allowed through the barriers with no problems and no need to go to the booking office.

When the line is blocked passengers from London are often advised to go to Watford Met and their tickets would be accepted.

If you were charging excess fares then I would think that generally you would have been in the wrong and if you derived pleasure from I reckon you should grow up.
 

W-on-Sea

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And yet the Central line trundles cheerfully through miles of Essex in Zone 6. Wonder if the decision at the time was down to managers of individual lines?
In fact, the Central line now trundles cheerfully (if largely emptily) through a few miles of Essex in Zone 4 (between Woodford and Hainault, but excluding those two stations, which are in Greater London: Roding Valley, Chigwell and Grange Hill are all in Essex, although the latter is right on the border).

That certainly was a TfL manager's decision, and a fairly recent one - I believe an attempt to boost passenger numbers on that stretch, which have long been pretty sparse.

But I understand that the reason that the Buckhurst Hill to Epping stretch is in the "normal" zones had more to do with financial support from Essex County Council- which was lacking from the appropriate county councils (Bucks and Herts) for the stretches of the Met outside Greater London. There was a time when Epping-Debden (I think) were outside the zones, but with the Essex stations of Loughton and Buckhurst Hill were inside them, so I'm guessing the funding situation changed at some point.
 

jopsuk

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I'd quite like to see the zones (at least as they apply to tube/rail) overlayed on a geographic map, with, in addition, circles showing the distance (as the crow flies) from Charing Cross (often cited as the very centre of London).
 

jopsuk

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cheers! though I suspect the zones on the south side extend quite a bit further- Ewell West (as an example), on the SWT Mole Valley Line, is in Zone 6, and is nearly 20km from Charing Cross
 

OxtedL

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Yes, the lack of National Rail is a bit misleading. Alas, I can't find a map with them on.
 

philjo

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I've had a lot of people on trains to Reading who have insisted the zone 9 Olympic tickets covered them to Reading...
I saw people with Games travelcards try to start their journey with them at Letchworth and Stevenage & asking staff why the barriers rejected them. A couple of people said that they thought that their games travelcard was valid for their entire journey to the Olympic Park. I think many of them haven't been on a train for a long time as they were also standing on the platform waiting for the train doors to open (probably used to the tube)
 

mr_jrt

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Bit of a tangent - but in brief I've long had an aspiration to see an orbital service operate on reinstated lines from Rickmansworth to Broxbourne via Watford Junction, St. Albans, Hatfield and Hertford. The reason I mention this is that it raises interesting zone issues that might be relevant. You would want to attract passengers onto the orbital routes, but not to the detriment of the mainline interchange stations. I eventually settled on the orbital line sections being in alternate zones 9 & 10 (or A), with the interchange stations being dual zones. I.E. Rickmansworth to WJ. being in z9, WJ in z9A, then Watford J to St Albans in zA, St Albans in z9A, then St Albans to Hatfield in z9, Hatfield in z9A, and so on.

Reason I mention it is because orbital travel is a fundamental issue with the current zones, but something like the above would ensure longer orbital journeys could incur higher fares, it protects the special status of the mainline interchange stations, and it fits in nicely with the existing radial zones :)
 
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Peter Mugridge

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Thing is though, just how far do you then keep pushing the boundry outwards?People just after Dartford would then start complaining and it just escalates. You have to draw the (boundry) line somewhere dont you?

It cant go on forever.
There is at present a chance of Epsom becoming a Z6 station; from reports in the local paper following meetings involving the MP all parties ( i.e. DfT, SWT, Southern ) are agreed but financial ( ie ORCATS ) details need sorting out and it might be another two years.
 

benk1342

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Bit of a tangent - but in brief I've long had an aspiration to see an orbital service operate on reinstated lines from Rickmansworth to Broxbourne via Watford Junction, St. Albans, Hatfield and Hertford.
I'd love to see something like this---haven't there been periodic talks about a light rail line? Not having a car it is frustrating to have to go all the way into London and back out just to go a few miles across the county. The 724 bus is alright but it only runs once an hour and isn't exactly speedy.
 
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