TGV La Poste at St Pancras 21-03-12

[RobShipway]

As has been shown, the rules for CT access are more flexible than originally thought. Also the standard TGVs meet most of them (split train format, independent power to power cars, length long enough to straddle two exits..) anyway except possibly the last.

Also, the ability to run SNCF services to London would have been made clear when there was a shortage of 373-series units, such as when they started dying in the snow a while back, these could have been provided either on an ad-hoc basis or through rental of spare units to the Eurostar company.

Likewise, I assume that somewhere near Paris there's always a TGV ready to roll in case its needed to replace an in-service failure. I assume a 373-series unit likewise is lined up in case a Eurostar service fails.

Cross-compatibility would enable one unit to cover bth services, etc, allowing more efficient deployment of roling stock and better returns on capital.

I have a few Video125 DVD's and I believe it is either on the Paris - London Eurostar DVD or the Paris - Marseille DVD where you are aboard a TGV where it shows the depot just outside of the main station in Paris that there is normal a few in store.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's Le Landy just outside Gare du Nord.

The one outside Gare de Lyon - a bit further away actually - is Paris Sud Est at the Villeneuve complex.

They do have hot spares on standby, yes. In the case of Eurostar they'll more likely step up the diagrams and then switch a failed set rather than bring a replacement out to cover the affected diagram.

 

[Barn]

Two of class of locomotives seen in the magazine photo were present at St Pancras that day also. l drove the HST into platform 4 and the locos where standing at the station entrance.
They where then coupled to the front of the TGV to haul it out on its return to France.

Does anyone know why the TGV couldn't power itself on the journey?

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone know why the TGV couldn't power itself on the journey?

It is explained in the other, fairly comprehensive, thread noted in post five. See page 4: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62190&page=4

The TGVs don't have a safety case for operating through the tunnel. This is partly to do with signalling considerations and partly to do with fire regulations through the tunnel.

Also, would it not also be the case that drivers passed on TGV-PSE stock wouldn't sign the tunnel and HS1?

 

[dosxuk]

It is explained in the other, fairly comprehensive, thread noted in post five. See page 4: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=62190&page=4

The TGVs don't have a safety case for operating through the tunnel. This is partly to do with signalling considerations and partly to do with fire regulations through the tunnel.

Also, would it not also be the case that drivers passed on TGV-PSE stock wouldn't sign the tunnel and HS1?

Would the TGV's pantograph even have reached the wires in the tunnel? AIUI the 373's and 92s are fitted with high reach pantographs as the tunnel catenry is much higher than normally used to allow for the shuttle vehicles.

 

[Yew]

Does any British stock meet channel tunnel regulations?

 

[Nym]

Does any British stock meet channel tunnel regulations?

I think the Class 373s do...

 

[LE Greys]

I think the Class 373s do...

And 92s, and Nightstar (sort of).

 

[AlanFry1]

Would it be a good idea if mail companies used High Speed Mail Trains on HS1 and HS2 in the near future?

 

[JGR]

Would it be a good idea if mail companies used High Speed Mail Trains on HS1 and HS2 in the near future?

I somehow doubt that there would be much demand for it in the UK. Mail volumes are largely falling and the UK is not as large/sparse as France.

 

[Yew]

I think the Class 373s do...

You know what I meant

Could IC225 sets meet regulations? Nightstar stock was mk4 derived, and class 92's are (loosely) related to 91's and from what I can tell, Chunnel regulations have been more tolerant recently. Maybe an IC225 with a class 92 on the DVT end?

 

[Mike C]

You know what I meant

Could IC225 sets meet regulations? Nightstar stock was mk4 derived, and class 92's are (loosely) related to 91's and from what I can tell, Chunnel regulations have been more tolerant recently. Maybe an IC225 with a class 92 on the DVT end?

In a word - No.

In some more words: They won't have the necessary fire compliance (French standard NFF 16-101 for anyone who cares). They don't have the required signalling systems, they don't have the required redundancy (only one pantograph for a start), and in order to make the train long enough to meet the evacuation regulations, the weight of the train would increase so much that a 91 wouldn't have enough grunt to climb the gradients in the tunnel if it suffered a motor, motor block/inverter failure. It would really struggle to pull a train out on on just two motors up those graidents. 373, the shuttle, and all ET compliant trains have systems to cope with these eventualities.

 

[starrymarkb]

319s have been through it, but that was a special working.

 

[Yew]

In a word - No.

In some more words: They won't have the necessary fire compliance (French standard NFF 16-101 for anyone who cares). They don't have the required signalling systems, they don't have the required redundancy (only one pantograph for a start), and in order to make the train long enough to meet the evacuation regulations, the weight of the train would increase so much that a 91 wouldn't have enough grunt to climb the gradients in the tunnel if it suffered a motor, motor block/inverter failure. It would really struggle to pull a train out on on just two motors up those graidents. 373, the shuttle, and all ET compliant trains have systems to cope with these eventualities.

Thanks, Im guessing that the main stumbling block would be fire compliance? the set could be made longer and double headed easily and a new train protection/signaling system fitted, but modifying the coaches would be difficult and not economical at this point in their lifespan?

Im guessing Hydro's ambition of taking the NMT over to paris is even less likely?

 

[Mike C]

Thanks, Im guessing that the main stumbling block would be fire compliance? the set could be made longer and double headed easily and a new train protection/signaling system fitted, but modifying the coaches would be difficult and not economical at this point in their lifespan?

Im guessing Hydro's ambition of taking the NMT over to paris is even less likely?

Being a diesel, the NMT has yet another issue there. It would need to be dragged through.

Yes, overhauling carriages to be fire compliant is practically a re-build. Even re-engineering the locos would be prohibitively expensive. You would need to do the same work - new cabling throughout, fire systems upgraded/installed, an extra compressor fitted, second pantograph, TVM430 signalling, control systems, software upgrades.... you'd be better off just starting with a blank slate.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

319s have been through it, but that was a special working.

Was that the one that made it to the tunnel port on the scissors crossover on the english side? I think it was named 'cheriton' too but didn't go far in the tunnel.
Has one been through the tunnel before? I think there was another 319 charter there but unsure if it crossed the border

 

[tsr]

319s have been through it, but that was a special working.

That is one of the last things I would want to be on in the Tunnel, I have to say.

 

[LE Greys]

I recently dug up a picture of a Pressed Steel Class 117 with REGIONAL RAILWAYS on the front taking some of the workforce down the tunnel. One of them may have taken the first passengers from England to France. They also had Belgian diesel-hydraulic units and former SNCF X3800 'Picassso' units - one of which made the first France-England crossing. The first live tests of the overhead power supply were interesting, since they involved 86208 City of Chester in full Intercity Swallow livery as a mobile load bank, working with a track-recording coach and a 47.

 

[tsr]

Have a look at this. The usual reliability-related disclaimers about the site apply!

 

[heart-of-wessex]

It did indeed sorry yes, as mentioned here too http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class319_02.html

Come to think of it, DRS 20's have been through haven't they on the Kosovo special? I haven't seen the video of it yet, so I don't know if it was piloted or shipped over? All I know is it started at Kingmoor or somewhere around there

 

[Rhydgaled]

Did the ICE and TGV operating into St. Pancras have some sort of multiple working system that is compatible with the Eurotunnel locos that moved them?

I ask this because it doesn't look like there is a facility for the diesel locos to run round. Thefore, either the ICE and TGV would have had to run the last little section into the station under their own power or the diesel locos would have had to be pushing the set, controled from the cab of the ICE/TGV (hence the requirement for multiple working).

 

[Class377/5]

Did the ICE and TGV operating into St. Pancras have some sort of multiple working system that is compatible with the Eurotunnel locos that moved them?

I ask this because it doesn't look like there is a facility for the diesel locos to run round. Thefore, either the ICE and TGV would have had to run the last little section into the station under their own power or the diesel locos would have had to be pushing the set, controled from the cab of the ICE/TGV (hence the requirement for multiple working).

The unit I believe made its own way the last few meters under its own power.

 

[D1009]

Was that the one that made it to the tunnel port on the scissors crossover on the english side? I think it was named 'cheriton' too but didn't go far in the tunnel.
Has one been through the tunnel before? I think there was another 319 charter there but unsure if it crossed the border

As I recall there was a test run of possibly 2x319 all the way through before the tunnel was open to regular traffic. There were also some public trips from the Eurotunnel terminal as far as the first crossover about 150 yds into the tunnel as part of a publicity event. I recall the pantograph on the 319 being almost vertical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did the ICE and TGV operating into St. Pancras have some sort of multiple working system that is compatible with the Eurotunnel locos that moved them?

I ask this because it doesn't look like there is a facility for the diesel locos to run round. Thefore, either the ICE and TGV would have had to run the last little section into the station under their own power or the diesel locos would have had to be pushing the set, controled from the cab of the ICE/TGV (hence the requirement for multiple working).

My guess is the Krupps ran round the set outside St Pancras and propelled it into the station.

 

[Hydro]

Being a diesel, the NMT has yet another issue there. It would need to be dragged through.

No bother, we've already made use of a 92 before. Extra few lines in the SOI, passports up to date, crack on! Not sure how long the kit would last though. The backup batteries aren't all that when running minus the generators.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

There were also some public trips from the Eurotunnel terminal as far as the first crossover about 150 yds into the tunnel as part of a publicity event. I recall the pantograph on the 319 being almost vertical.
.

I went on one of those ( the first one in after the charter ).

The UK Land Crossover is more than 150 yards into the tunnel - it's more like a mile.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

There is a crossover around 150 yards in, well it's about the length of a Eurostar if the rear power car was at the UK tunnel entrance then the crossover is near the front one.
There is one at the entrance too, so I don't know if one has used that as well.
Any of the crossovers must be big track!

 

[Kentish Paul]

Hi everyone, 1st post time.

Spent 5 years on the Tunnel during construction including trackwork. The main crossovers are equally spaced at 1/3 and 2/3 distance, so the UK one is about 7 miles out from the coast. The one near the Folkstone portal was a single trailing crossover in the down direction, the main ones being double scissors with sliding doors seperating the running tunnels. The 319x2 were chosen as they were the closest EMU with retention toilets. (no flushing allowed in the tunnel !)

Travelled into the tunnel at start of shift many times on the old DMU. (toilets locked out of use needless to say). It used to struggle a bit climbing up to the portal from the tunnel low point. I think it was 1 in 90 but will check. Happy days.

 

[tsr]

Hi everyone, 1st post time.

Spent 5 years on the Tunnel during construction including trackwork. The main crossovers are equally spaced at 1/3 and 2/3 distance, so the UK one is about 7 miles out from the coast. The one near the Folkstone portal was a single trailing crossover in the down direction, the main ones being double scissors with sliding doors seperating the running tunnels. The 319x2 were chosen as they were the closest EMU with retention toilets. (no flushing allowed in the tunnel !)

Travelled into the tunnel at start of shift many times on the old DMU. (toilets locked out of use needless to say). It used to struggle a bit climbing up to the portal from the tunnel low point. I think it was 1 in 90 but will check. Happy days.

Hello! Welcome! Thanks for your input, that's very interesting.

Do you know if the Folkestone crossover was in fact used for any of these early explorer tours or other similar/introductory services, perhaps with a reversal (if such a thing was allowed)?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Hello! Welcome! Thanks for your input, that's very interesting.

Do you know if the Folkestone crossover was in fact used for any of these early explorer tours or other similar/introductory services, perhaps with a reversal (if such a thing was allowed)?

Well... the 319 I was on reversed from about a mile or so into the tunnel to use the UK Land Crossover...

When I am on Eurostars I time them through the tunnel not just portal timings but using the main crossover caverns as well for intermediate timing points. I don't use the UK Land Crossover as a timing point, but inbound to the UK it is roughly a minute from passing it to emerging from the portal.

 

[D1009]

Well... the 319 I was on reversed from about a mile or so into the tunnel to use the UK Land Crossover...

When I am on Eurostars I time them through the tunnel not just portal timings but using the main crossover caverns as well for intermediate timing points. I don't use the UK Land Crossover as a timing point, but inbound to the UK it is roughly a minute from passing it to emerging from the portal.

I've just checked the Quail map which shows the UK portal at km 10.025, and the crossover at km 10.775 to km 11.038, so it's a lot more than 150 yards and a lot less than a mile.